Thameslink Services/Timetable from May 20th 2018

[OwenB]

Anyone awaiting for GN try to deal with the football crowd at Finsbury Park after the match on now?

 

[Failed Unit]

Anyone awaiting for GN try to deal with the football crowd at Finsbury Park after the match on now?

The have an extra Moorgate to WGC (if it runs) and 2 cancellations.

 

[OwenB]

The have an extra Moorgate to WGC (if it runs) and 2 cancellations.

*gets popcorn and fires up @GNRailUK on Twitter*

 

[The Box Photter]

Seeing as @The Box Photter likes to rant and rave I'm going to answer their rants in a calm manner and explain why they're wrong...



As to your view that GTR/Network Rail planners (DfT planners have nothing to do with this apart from the ORR approving paths) as well as many posters on this forum seeing the Thameslink network as a giant train set, that is childish for example you only have to see posts by @Failed Unit and @bramling amongst others to see that this isn't the case.



The section between Kentish Town and Blackfriars is being resignalled which means more train can run frequently though this area, without this resignalling this is not possible.



It seems to have escaped your attention that this isn't that easy as it means other TOCs which interface with GTR will have to have their timetables amended too such as Greater Anglia, London Overground, South West Trains, LNER, Cross Country, South Western Railway, Great Western Railway, Hull Trains, Grand Central, South Eastern, London North Western Railway etc as they have planned their own timetables around the proposed GTR one.



Actually you're wrong here, if you took the time to read the posts from the Southern users here, the one part of the GTR timetable that has actually meant a better service is the Southern one as the majority here seem to be contend with the new timetable over the old one so why change just because a TL passenger doesn't like the TL timetable?



Really? Again you seem to miss out the rather important issue that Kings Cross and London Bridge are far more busier then they were a few years ago and in order to increase terminating platform capacity, they've had to run services though the Canal Tunnels in order to do this.



Again, see my last reply above your quote on why this shouldn't happen.



Again, Railplan 2020 was about increasing the number of services that passengers can use but at the same time increase the terminating capacity at Kings Cross and London Bridge by running more though services, the fact that it introduced new journey opportunities seems to be lost on you and your ranting.

For the record yet again, I am NOT defending GTR's handling of the timetable just pointing out the issues that are at hand without having to resort to ranting and raving.



Because whenever the **** hits the fan, the Hertford Loop services take a battering as they don't have any priority at all and the powers to be see the Cambridge services as more important then running a stopping service.

As well as the fact that the Loop has slower linespeeds it also adds 20 mins to the journey if you're diverted even more if you're following a stopper which is why there is no interest in running stoppers when they're using the Loop to divert services.

Really, I find your comments patronising and typical of someone who doesn't have to put up with the disaster that is Thameslink. You sound suspiciously like a GTR employee or management type.

 

[Hadders]

Anyone awaiting for GN try to deal with the football crowd at Finsbury Park after the match on now?

18:41 service to Cambridge cancelled. The 18:56 Peterborough has had additional stops at Finsbury Park and Stevenage added. Platforms at Finsbury were wedged as we arrived.

It’d be good if GTR operated some 12 car trains at times like this to mop up the crowds but they’re sat in the sidings.....

 

[jopsuk]

Still more or less daily complaints about total lack of peak hour service in either direction at Foxton, Meldreth, Shepreth and Ashwell & Morden

 

[Failed Unit]

18:41 service to Cambridge cancelled. The 18:56 Peterborough has had additional stops at Finsbury Park and Stevenage added. Platforms at Finsbury were wedged as we arrived.

It’d be good if GTR operated some 12 car trains at times like this to mop up the crowds but they’re sat in the sidings.....

A lot of unhappy punters, the extra got cancelled as did the 1832 Kings Cross - Letchworth and the service you mention above.

One thing that did raise my eyebrows, last year we would have said.

"It'd be good if GTR operated some 8 car trains at times like this to mop up crowds but they're sat in the sidings."

But as GTR are not taking any revenue risk - they won't exactly care about putting off people travelling by rail.

 

[Dore & Totley]

*gets popcorn and fires up @GNRailUK on Twitter*

It's not good on Twitter. Many unhappy punters. Jack is doing his best to placate them with stock Delay Repay

 

[Aictos]

Really, I find your comments patronising and typical of someone who doesn't have to put up with the disaster that is Thameslink.

You find MY comments patronising and typical of someone who doesn't have to put up with the disaster in your words that is Thameslink?

All I have done is taken you to task on your rants and pointed out why they're not entirely correct.

In no way have I attempted to be patronising rather I've been trying to explain where you are wrong and unlike you I haven't ranted and raved about the service.

You sound suspiciously like a GTR employee or management type who doesn't have to put up with the disaster that is Thameslink.

I sound like a GTR employee or management type and here you've outdone yourself by jumping to the wrong conclusion based on the common sense approach I try to bring to these forums, I have nothing to do with the railways apart from being a passenger like any of the other members here, my only contact with the railway is travelling from A to B.

Yes I know the route very well having commuted on it for over a decade but that doesn't make me any more a GTR employee then @Failed Unit, @jopsuk, @jon0844 or even @bramling which makes you look rather silly.

Yes I no longer commute on the routes affected by this but that doesn't mean I can't comment on it nor does it mean I can't try to explain why your posts are invalid, I don't travel in the Central Belt does that mean I shouldn't post on these topics as I'm not directly affected by them of course not as that is being childish.

 

[OwenB]

It's not good on Twitter. Many unhappy punters. Jack is doing his best to placate them with stock Delay Repay

Good old ^Jack. Twitter aside, it's the small things in general that tell you a lot about how a company is run - before this whole timetable disaster they would only ever have one ticket office window open at Hatfield on the evenings of Arsenal games. It's just a glimpse of how little they actually think about what is happening in the real world and how it may impact their service.

 

[Failed Unit]

According to the original plans, Welwyn Garden City was meant to be 4tph off peak Monday to Saturday and Hertford North was meant to be 6tph off peak Monday to Saturday however like all things that GTR and Network Rail have done, both have been descoped.

The 4tph did actually make it into the timetable on 20th May. They even attempted to run it. Same story on the 27th May. I had to use it that day and the cancellations rate was high. I think they abandoned it the following weekend.

Although it was not published, some of the Moorgates were removed very late in the day.

I believe that is why the x02 and x32 WGC - London stop at Hadley Wood

Likewise why x24 and x54 don’t stop at Hadley wood, Oakliegh Park and New Southgate.

I think the missing trains originated from the Hertford loop and would have stopped at Hornsey and Harringey. This would have allowed the stops to be removed from the WGC service and allowed them to stop at New Southgate etc.

Why the extra 2 could not run I am not certain. Could be waiting for the 717s or resignalling of the Moorgate branch. I am sure someone will know. I know New Southgate and Oakleigh Park were very unhappy at the reduction in their service and the fact it wasn’t consulted about.

 

[Aictos]

Good old ^Jack. Twitter aside, it's the small things in general that tell you a lot about how a company is run - before this whole timetable disaster they would only ever have one ticket office window open at Hatfield on the evenings of Arsenal games. It's just a glimpse of how little they actually think about what is happening in the real world and how it may impact their service.

When FCC proposed closing or reducing the opening hours on Sundays on the Hertford Loop, it was given to be understood that when Arsenal were playing that the ticket office at Hertford would be open of course this never happened and instead of having the most busiest ticket office outside the M25 on the Loop open they had one of the two quietest ticket offices open instead with maybe one sell a hour if you're lucky.

But as you've stated it really is the small things in general that tell you how well or how bad a company is managed.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Good old ^Jack. Twitter aside, it's the small things in general that tell you a lot about how a company is run - before this whole timetable disaster they would only ever have one ticket office window open at Hatfield on the evenings of Arsenal games. It's just a glimpse of how little they actually think about what is happening in the real world and how it may impact their service.

A franchise let with no revenue responsibilty to the operator - only cost.

Therefore , no one at Dft would ever pick this up , and you could not imagine a civil servant / franchise manager trecking out to Hatfield - or anywhere -out of hours - even in daylight - to check on these issues. Goes to the old adage of a contractual relationship is for the provider to do the absolute minimum (or less) to meet the contract ; unless there are shedloads of money to make ..

Discuss -with examples ..(Tory Grandees / Non exec Directors and the Adam Smith Institute barred of course)

 

[The Box Photter]

You find MY comments patronising and typical of someone who doesn't have to put up with the disaster in your words that is Thameslink?

All I have done is taken you to task on your rants and pointed out why they're not entirely correct.

In no way have I attempted to be patronising rather I've been trying to explain where you are wrong and unlike you I haven't ranted and raved about the service.



I sound like a GTR employee or management type and here you've outdone yourself by jumping to the wrong conclusion based on the common sense approach I try to bring to these forums, I have nothing to do with the railways apart from being a passenger like any of the other members here, my only contact with the railway is travelling from A to B.

Yes I know the route very well having commuted on it for over a decade but that doesn't make me any more a GTR employee then @Failed Unit, @jopsuk, @jon0844 or even @bramling which makes you look rather silly.

Yes I no longer commute on the routes affected by this but that doesn't mean I can't comment on it nor does it mean I can't try to explain why your posts are invalid, I don't travel in the Central Belt does that mean I shouldn't post on these topics as I'm not directly affected by them of course not as that is being childish.

Can you seriously point to any significant improvement in service to passengers as a result of the timetable change in May? Perhaps some ex-Southern passengers now get a slightly more convenient service than before, but if you live north of St Pancras on either branch, the reliability and convenience has been shot to pieces. You describe my postings as a "rant", well that's fine, I intended to convey my disgust for the way I and many thousands of season ticket holders have been treated over the past months and my contempt for apologists like yourself.

 

[uglymonkey]

"the reliability and convenience has been shot to pieces" - totally destroyed I think is the word you are looking for - you can't rely on the service anymore. Even if you get into London, its a lottery whether your planned train home is going to be delayed, or cancelled- no wonder people are voting with their feet and "footfall" has decreased. You'll only use the service now if you have no alternative "Is your journey really necessary?" as the old wartime poster used to say. Saturday and Sunday have destroyed the leisure market -Totally ( fancy taking your kids to the science museum for a day out?- are you sure the train home will actually run? how long will you have to wait?) Do you really want to go to the cinema in Stevenage if you are not sure how long you will have to wait for a train home?

 

[Aictos]

Can you seriously point to any significant improvement in service to passengers as a result of the timetable change in May?

Yes, see Southern passengers who now have a much better timetable then before as will passengers on other routes when these missing drivers finally get trained up.

but if you live north of St Pancras on either branch, the reliability and convenience has been shot to pieces.

I'm not going to argue on this as the reliability of the service HAS suffered though lack of trained drivers for the service and nothing more.

ou describe my postings as a "rant"

Good that you know what a rant is and maybe you might bring something worthwhile to the discussion instead of flying off the handle every 5 mins like a child.

well that's fine, I intended to convey my disgust for the way I and many thousands of season ticket holders have been treated over the past months and my contempt for apologists like yourself.

Umm again, congratulations on being so so wrong I have never apologised for GTR at all indeed it might have escaped your attention but all I have said is simply what the issues are and why proposals see your rants won't necessary work.

All you've managed to do is portray yourself as a spoilt keyboard warrior trying to take it out on people who actually see the bigger picture and who try to explain why your proposals won't work.

As to name calling, it's unbecoming of you!

 

[Hadders]

GTR are still deleting trains from the schedule. Looking at the interim timetable there should be departures from Kings Cross to Stevenage at the following times this evening:

22:11 arrives 22:37
22:41 arrives 23:07
23:02 arrives 23:43
23:22 arrives 23:48
00:02 arrives 00:43
00:32 arrives 01:13
01:32 arrives 02:21

The journey planners for today show no 22:41 or 00:02. Disgraceful that they're still just deleting trains. There is no mention of these cancellations in the service disruption section of their website. I haven't checked trains before 22:00 but I strongly suspect there are further cancellations.

I'm a 'hard core' rail user and even I'm starting to make decisions based on the service which I've never, ever done before (even in the bad days following Hatfield). I could've gone to a concert in London tonight that finished around 22:00 but decided to head home early as looking at the trains back to Stevenage I couldn't be certain what time I'd get home. Looking at the current state of play this was a wise move as the 22:41, 23:02 and 00:02 are all slowing as cancelled.

And to think that on Sundays until 20th May Stevenage used to have two fast trains an hour and a semi fast (and a 2nd semi fast in the busiest hours)

 

[Hadders]

I'm not going to argue on this as the reliability of the service HAS suffered though lack of trained drivers for the service and nothing more.

What about delays south of the core being transmitted north, resulting in further delays and skip stopping? Bear in mind that many of these stations only get 2 trains an hour.

 

[Aictos]

What about delays south of the core being transmitted north, resulting in further delays and skip stopping? Bear in mind that many of these stations only get 2 trains an hour.

You raise a very good point however it is still a major issue that not enough drivers are trained up on the new routes that they're meant to be driving over ie Canal Tunnels and Southwards for GN drivers and Canal Tunnels and Northwards for both TL and SN drivers.

You will also get delays north of the Core impacting on services further south for example it only takes a driver not being where they're meant to be to have a impact on the service as you know full well as that's been the case at Finsbury Park since Day 1 of this timetable.

Sadly though delays will happen regardless and the best that can be done is to migate them to the best way possible.

 

[MikeWM]

I'm a 'hard core' rail user and even I'm starting to make decisions based on the service which I've never, ever done before (even in the bad days following Hatfield). I could've gone to a concert in London tonight that finished around 22:00 but decided to head home early as looking at the trains back to Stevenage I couldn't be certain what time I'd get home. Looking at the current state of play this was a wise move as the 22:41, 23:02 and 00:02 are all slowing as cancelled.

Totally agreed. Amongst all the other issues, I've never seen a train company be so indifferent as to bothering to try to run the last services of the night. The 0002 was the last train to Cambridge, cancelled once again

 

[Agent_Squash]

Can you seriously point to any significant improvement in service to passengers as a result of the timetable change in May? Perhaps some ex-Southern passengers now get a slightly more convenient service than before, but if you live north of St Pancras on either branch, the reliability and convenience has been shot to pieces. You describe my postings as a "rant", well that's fine, I intended to convey my disgust for the way I and many thousands of season ticket holders have been treated over the past months and my contempt for apologists like yourself.

Southern makes up 67% of services on the GTR network.

They are always going to be the priority to get right, followed by TL.

 

[hwl]

Southern makes up 67% of services on the GTR network.

They are always going to be the priority to get right, followed by TL.

...then followed by GN...

67% based on all services in the May TT running. Now they are cancelling more GN services the SN % will be even higher.

 

[mrmatt]

f you live north of St Pancras on either branch, the reliability and convenience has been shot to pieces.

At this point I don't think the service to Flitwick (that I believe you commute from) is any worse than it was pre May 20th. In fact the morning service is now pretty reliable with some occasional evening cancellations and delays but nothing worse than I'm used to.

The Bedford side seems to have bedded in somewhat (although obviously the driver training task is somewhat easier on the MML side compared to GN). On the other hand one of my colleagues commutes from Hitchin and seems to have a much worse time of it.

 

[Failed Unit]

I'm a 'hard core' rail user and even I'm starting to make decisions based on the service which I've never, ever done before (even in the bad days following Hatfield). I could've gone to a concert in London tonight that finished around 22:00 but decided to head home early as looking at the trains back to Stevenage I couldn't be certain what time I'd get home. Looking at the current state of play this was a wise move as the 22:41, 23:02 and 00:02 are all slowing as cancelled.

And to think that on Sundays until 20th May Stevenage used to have two fast trains an hour and a semi fast (and a 2nd semi fast in the busiest hours)

Must admit I am the same prefer to use rail when I can. At weekends it is now my option of last resort. I am just not bothering to go into London at weekends for leisure activities.

I don’t understand why GTR are still showing the standard Monday timetable for the forthcoming bank holiday Monday. This is 2 weeks away, they are telling people to check. It is very possible some will book an AP ticket on a journey that won’t run. If it is a Saturday service then it is hourly - but the journey planner is showing 3tph between 0700 and 0800.

This is basic stuff. Most operating companies had these timetables out weeks ago. But again GTR make it impossible to plan. I need to travel on this day. I am seriously considering getting a hire car for the journey as if I go by train I need to allow an extra hour for cancellations.

Bad start to Monday morning- but Great Northern is one of the better routes.

 

[The Box Photter]

At this point I don't think the service to Flitwick (that I believe you commute from) is any worse than it was pre May 20th. In fact the morning service is now pretty reliable with some occasional evening cancellations and delays but nothing worse than I'm used to.

The Bedford side seems to have bedded in somewhat (although obviously the driver training task is somewhat easier on the MML side compared to GN). On the other hand one of my colleagues commutes from Hitchin and seems to have a much worse time of it.

In the mornings it's usually OK. But by the evening, they've usually lost the plot because of knock on delays cause by late running trains off th GN side running late back into London. On many evenings I've had to wait for close to an hour before a train is available at Blackfriars that is stopping at Flitwick. That's because the train is either a "Thameslink Express" or a skip-stopper. Remember, we've no alternative way to get home.

 

[The Box Photter]

Southern makes up 67% of services on the GTR network.

They are always going to be the priority to get right, followed by TL.

All the more reason to split up the franchise.

 

[Failed Unit]

In the mornings it's usually OK. But by the evening, they've usually lost the plot because of knock on delays cause by late running trains off th GN side running late back into London. On many evenings I've had to wait for close to an hour before a train is available at Blackfriars that is stopping at Flitwick. That's because the train is either a "Thameslink Express" or a skip-stopper. Remember, we've no alternative way to get home.

I find early mornings and late evenings the worse. They normally state they don’t find drivers for the first trains of the day doing the Cambridge/ Welwyn - London diagrams. This the rapidly cascades as other trains have stops added to cover (and removed as they are too full) the rush hour is normally over before they have recovered.

Pm peak isn’t normally as bad.

Travel after 2100 it is definitely “do you feel lucky punk?”

They won’t think twice about cancelling the last trains home, which probably also explains why the morning service is so bad. It may have a driver for the AM working but the train never made it the night before. The reason given for the cancellation is no driver. Which is correct (for the previous night). Imagine if they said “no train - due to it not making it north the previous night”

 

[mrmatt]

On many evenings I've had to wait for close to an hour before a train is available at Blackfriars that is stopping at Flitwick

Perhaps it is simply a timing thing - I do keep an eye out on the state of play from about 4pm onwards to work out how close to 5 I need to be out the door - which I shouldn't have to do.

The reality of the situation is since E* moved into St Pancras there is no choice but to run the MML commuter services south of the river.

because of knock on delays cause by late running trains off th GN side running late back into London

I don't think the evenings are acceptable - the number of services that are routinely delayed by 3-7 minutes is pretty high (they generally seem to lose time between Three Bridges and East Croydon from what I can tell) but it has been a few weeks now since I've had to wait for more than 30 mins for a train and that was after a trespass incident at East Croydon. I can't say on the odd occasion I've seen the GN core services actually running they've appeared to be the cause though.

 

[NorthKent1989]

Things are still pretty shoddy on the Medway route, 1tph, sometimes 1tp2h, and sometimes no Saturday service, I said you can’t change the timetable where GTR is concerned because of the knock on effect onto other TOC’s however the most badly affected routes need to be looked at, Southern are happy but the changes were always going to benefit Southern more than say South Eastern, I think some routes need to be changed and looked into or else we’ll be going round in circles, it’s now August and there are still issues, it’s astounding.

 

[BRX]

I find early mornings and late evenings the worse. They normally state they don’t find drivers for the first trains of the day doing the Cambridge/ Welwyn - London diagrams. This the rapidly cascades as other trains have stops added to cover (and removed as they are too full) the rush hour is normally over before they have recovered.

Pm peak isn’t normally as bad.

Travel after 2100 it is definitely “do you feel lucky punk?”

They won’t think twice about cancelling the last trains home, which probably also explains why the morning service is so bad. It may have a driver for the AM working but the train never made it the night before. The reason given for the cancellation is no driver. Which is correct (for the previous night). Imagine if they said “no train - due to it not making it north the previous night”

When the last train is cancelled, are passengers offered a taxi home?