The annual "Boxing Day Trains" row.

[bramling]

On Bank Holidays, Anytimes are not often sold. Bank Holidays might be busy but the trains are full of some of the lowest yielding customers.

And I bet revenues are heavily affected by factors like weather too. I know when I travel (to work) on a bank holiday, if it's a rainy day then you can guarantee the train will be a lot emptier than if the weather's fine.

 

[Failed Unit]

Forget about Boxing Day and bank holidays then. I for one would be more than happy with that. Then everyone has access to everything.

(Now let's see how many people aren't so keen now *they* may have to work).

It is interesting (maybe mentioned elsewhere on this thread) that a petition is underway to try and get the shops shut on Boxing Day. If this happens then that kills of most potential demand, along with killing off most arguments to open.

But experience shows that "keep Sunday special failed" and as even the opponent state it is just a matter of time, but if the staff believe keeping the network closed for person reasons is worth fighting for good luck to them. (Just please don't give me the no demand or TOCs would lose too much money line) - this is hard to prove either way as like many things on the railway, the subpress demand rather than try to tap in new markets unless someone is paying for the revenue risk. Be interesting if the government call their bluff and paid to trail in certain areas.

Just makes me wonder if the "Hell will freeze over before I work on Boxing Day mob" have ever gone to the pub, used a shop gone to a football match etc Ie forced someone else to work. I can hand on heart say I haven't. I haven't signed the petition to get total shut down on Boxing Day either - but mainly because I don't feel that strongly about it.

 

[northwichcat]

And I bet revenues are heavily affected by factors like weather too. I know when I travel (to work) on a bank holiday, if it's a rainy day then you can guarantee the train will be a lot emptier than if the weather's fine.

I agree with that. The first Saturday in May my town always has a big May Day event and a bus operator were used to getting so many passengers they needed to run duplicate services. However, one year it was bad weather and while the operator got out the additional bus for the duplicate services they didn't require it.

 

[northwichcat]

Fine, but I hope you will be happy to pay the increased cost of your ticket to pay for this.

And we hope you enjoy the bus journey due to the Christmas engineering blockades...

So no need for the extra fare increase then. Bus drivers are paid substantially less than train drivers so we can give drivers of rail replacement buses a train driver's wages for the day and it would be cost neutral.

 

[northwichcat]

we are moving to 24 hours demand for everything.

Agreed. And the more we do online the more people won't be working normal 9-5 jobs.

 

[Class 170101]

So no need for the extra fare increase then. Bus drivers are paid substantially less than train drivers so we can give drivers of rail replacement buses a train driver's wages for the day and it would be cost neutral.

I wouldn't hold your breath on that one. In the last 12 months First Group pulled out of many areas citing not making any money, this is despite their buses being busy, usually people with bus passes that don't cover the full cost of the fares.

 

[northwichcat]

I wouldn't hold your breath on that one. In the last 12 months First Group pulled out of many areas citing not making any money, this is despite their buses being busy, usually people with bus passes that don't cover the full cost of the fares.

I was referring to having to operate rail replacement buses because the railway line is closed so the passengers wouldn't be able to use ENCTS passes or any form of bus ticket.

 

[Failed Unit]

And we hope you enjoy the bus journey due to the Christmas engineering blockades...

What % of the network is really shut? I know we get high profile blockades, but we get those at other times of the year such as Easter, or August for some of the longer ones. I doubt the % forced on rail replacement buses is significantly worse than Easter.

 

[The Planner]

Depends how you look at it, if a terminus is shut then it could considered a tiny amount but if you consider it to the point where trains can turn back it is going to be more even if it isnt technically shut.

 

[Juniper Driver]

So no need for the extra fare increase then. Bus drivers are paid substantially less than train drivers so we can give drivers of rail replacement buses a train driver's wages for the day and it would be cost neutral.

Not really,can you get 1000 passengers on a bus?

 

[Llanigraham]

So no need for the extra fare increase then. Bus drivers are paid substantially less than train drivers so we can give drivers of rail replacement buses a train driver's wages for the day and it would be cost neutral.

To change the contracts of ALL rail workers affected, remembering this will not just be train crews, will need renegotiating, so logically the way to get agreement will be to offer more money. If bus drivers already have that in their contract then your point is worthless.

I note that your have totally ignored the maintenance point! :roll:

 

[Failed Unit]

I note that your have totally ignored the maintenance point! :roll:

But that is really a small % of the network where major projects will continue to take place, just like the do at all bank holidays. Not really a reason not to provide service. If you take the Thameslink project and blockades at London Bridge, once this is done maintenance will probably take place at other times of the year to focus resources on major projects.

 

[miami]

To change the contracts of ALL rail workers affected, remembering this will not just be train crews, will need renegotiating, so logically the way to get agreement will be to offer more money. If bus drivers already have that in their contract then your point is worthless.

I note that your have totally ignored the maintenance point! :roll:

The solution to that is to ensure new contracts for new employees are more appropriate for the service required. Over time the problem slowly vanishes as people on old conditions retire or change jobs.

As for maintenence, If Euston is shut that's fine, but what stops a Watford-Glasgow 1 train per hour 11 car service running? If Crewe is blockaded, how does that affect a Manchester-Sheffield service? Do all lines really get closed over Christmas?

 

[jon0844]

The fact the Stansted Express ran on Boxing Day, but no other trains, suggests not all lines are totally closed. They just don't have trains running on them.

 

[The Planner]

As for maintenence, If Euston is shut that's fine, but what stops a Watford-Glasgow 1 train per hour 11 car service running? If Crewe is blockaded, how does that affect a Manchester-Sheffield service? Do all lines really get closed over Christmas?

PITA without Watford North, but if Euston is shut how do you get those punters into London? No DCs as Euston is gone and you have to consider moving train loads of people at stations not geared up for being terminii. Its how you deal with the people as much as it is the trains.

 

[bramling]

The fact the Stansted Express ran on Boxing Day, but no other trains, suggests not all lines are totally closed. They just don't have trains running on them.

Bear in mind that the requirement to run the SEx on Boxing Day would naturally be planned in advance, and any works would be planned with that borne in mind.

Obviously it's easy to plan around a very small handful of services, but much harder to do this on a larger scale.

An example of this is London Underground - you'll notice it's *very* rare for the Heathrow branch of the Piccadilly Line to be closed to the airport itself. It's not that work doesn't get done on the branch, just that it gets done in different ways -- generally less efficient and thus more costly.

 

[Sunset route]

But that is really a small % of the network where major projects will continue to take place, just like the do at all bank holidays. Not really a reason not to provide service. If you take the Thameslink project and blockades at London Bridge, once this is done maintenance will probably take place at other times of the year to focus resources on major projects.

Once they finish with London Bridge it should be onwards to Norwood Junction, Selhurst and East Croydon remodelling if the plans ever leave the drawing board and get funded!

 

[jon0844]

Bear in mind that the requirement to run the SEx on Boxing Day would naturally be planned in advance, and any works would be planned with that borne in mind.

Obviously it's easy to plan around a very small handful of services, but much harder to do this on a larger scale.

Yes, but it does mean that not all lines are closed on the day so more services could run. It's more a staffing issue.

I am not saying that to mean organising the staff is easy or anything.

Personally, I'd seek to run a skeleton service and working around any engineering work that might take place in any given year, with bus/coaches to step in as required.

It would be part of the franchise, so TOCs wouldn't need to worry about how to finance it - as it would be factored in to their original bidding and the costs spread out.

 

[philthetube]

PITA without Watford North, but if Euston is shut how do you get those punters into London? No DCs as Euston is gone and you have to consider moving train loads of people at stations not geared up for being terminii. Its how you deal with the people as much as it is the trains.

Watford is a bad example, Harrow then the Bakerloo line. Preston is a much better one.

 

[The Planner]

Could Harrow handle it? I doubt it. If you close Preston where are you turning trains back and moving people (and dont say the S&C)

 

[Failed Unit]

Could Harrow handle it? I doubt it. If you close Preston where are you turning trains back and moving people (and dont say the S&C)

But don't these issues exist whenever a blockade is planned?

 

[Llanigraham]

The solution to that is to ensure new contracts for new employees are more appropriate for the service required. Over time the problem slowly vanishes as people on old conditions retire or change jobs.

As for maintenence, If Euston is shut that's fine, but what stops a Watford-Glasgow 1 train per hour 11 car service running? If Crewe is blockaded, how does that affect a Manchester-Sheffield service? Do all lines really get closed over Christmas?

So that could take years!
:roll:

 

[Failed Unit]

So that could take years!
:roll:

Not sure how to interpret that - it could be difficult so we shouldn't try?

Cards on table - I would be against forcing changes in contracts of existing staff. But any kind of improvement in the service to the public we should at least try to implement. Maybe bad example but if we took the too difficult or it will take years approach then we should give up on HS2 now.

The only way to kill off the - there is no demand arguement is to a least try it. As I said in another post if it is in the London area TFL may need to take some of the risk. (Or dft).

 

[313103]

Here we are talking about Boxing day services and yet today at least 5 of the HSTs i dispatched less then 5 passengers were on board and on three (two up and one down services) the only people on board was the Guard and the Buffet car staff!

I could understand if this was early morning but this between 08:45 (i started at 08:00) and 10:00, my colleague who was at work from 06:00 said to me he could of counted the amount of passengers boarding trains on one hand. The most i counted boarding was 14 and that was around 11:00. Yet i am told by people that demand for trains are there, yet these figures clearly show there isnt, as every HST i dispatched until i finished at around 16:00 was mostly carrying non paying 'Fresh Air'.

PS: Sorry for going off topic, please dont delete the post as i think it is relevant whist not within the context of what the original poster was posing.

 

[dk1]

The solution to that is to ensure new contracts for new employees are more appropriate for the service required. Over time the problem slowly vanishes as people on old conditions retire or change jobs.

As for maintenence, If Euston is shut that's fine, but what stops a Watford-Glasgow 1 train per hour 11 car service running? If Crewe is blockaded, how does that affect a Manchester-Sheffield service? Do all lines really get closed over Christmas?

ASLEF at my depot & no doubt many others would not tolerate main line drivers on different contracts.

 

[philthetube]

Could Harrow handle it? I doubt it. If you close Preston where are you turning trains back and moving people (and dont say the S&C)

Harrow could cope, extra Bakerloo trains shuttles could run, Harrow, Baker Street.

I was saying that Preston would cause big problems, as you are agreeing.

 

[Failed Unit]

Here we are talking about Boxing day services and yet today at least 5 of the HSTs i dispatched less then 5 passengers were on board and on three (two up and one down services) the only people on board was the Guard and the Buffet car staff!

I could understand if this was early morning but this between 08:45 (i started at 08:00) and 10:00, my colleague who was at work from 06:00 said to me he could of counted the amount of passengers boarding trains on one hand. The most i counted boarding was 14 and that was around 11:00. Yet i am told by people that demand for trains are there, yet these figures clearly show there isnt, as every HST i dispatched until i finished at around 16:00 was mostly carrying non paying 'Fresh Air'.

PS: Sorry for going off topic, please dont delete the post as i think it is relevant whist not within the context of what the original poster was posing.

Interested where that was - no shortage of demand on Virgin East Coast either on 1st or 2nd.

However considering we have a thread titled the least used trains, am sure this is an event every single day.

Not one that can be used to argue if trains should run on a Sunday / Boxing Day.

 

[miami]

Harrow could cope, extra Bakerloo trains shuttles could run, Harrow, Baker Street.

I was saying that Preston would cause big problems, as you are agreeing.

Start southbound trains from Wigan, northbound from Lancaster. If demand is as low as people say the a replacement coach arranged months in advance wouldn't be an issue. There would be no impact on services from Liverpool to Birmingham though.

 

[miami]

ASLEF at my depot & no doubt many others would not tolerate main line drivers on different contracts.

And thus the problem is nothing to do with maintaining existing rights, it's o do with maintaining union power.

The two types of contract was brought in at BA after they lost their state funding as a way to adapt to the new world of competition that grew over the last 20 years. Mixed Fleet have far worse contracts than Worldwide/Eurofleet, however no individual lost out.

Why should railstaff be immune from real world pressures the rest of the country faces? What makes them so special?

 

[dk1]

Why should railstaff be immune from real world pressures the rest of the country faces? What makes them so special?

Special? Why would I care what BA did in a previous life? The fact that others are weaker is not our problem. Why should we have added pressures in our working life when there really is no need? I struggle to understand where you are coming from Paul. Perhaps it's the fact you don't have or have never had that security & strength in your career that bothers you so much, but hey ho we do.

Summing it up Boxing Day as a national rail network is years & years away if ever it happens & unity is strength. Management keep their side of the bargain & we keep ours.