The annual "Boxing Day Trains" row.

[GB]

And thus the problem is nothing to do with maintaining existing rights, it's o do with maintaining union power.

The two types of contract was brought in at BA after they lost their state funding as a way to adapt to the new world of competition that grew over the last 20 years. Mixed Fleet have far worse contracts than Worldwide/Eurofleet, however no individual lost out.

Why should railstaff be immune from real world pressures the rest of the country faces? What makes them so special?

Now I see. You don't have something therefore I shouldn't have something. A race to the bottom led by paulweaver it seems.

 

[miami]

Special? Why would I care what BA did in a previous life? The fact that others are weaker is not our problem. Why should we have added pressures in our working life when there really is no need? I struggle to understand where you are coming from Paul. Perhaps it's the fact you don't have or have never had that security & strength in your career that bothers you so much, but hey ho we do.

My problem is I pay for those perks via my taxes. If the railway is being funded as a public service (which I'm mostly in favour of, although the attitudes of the unions and militant staff move my X towards the tories), it should be run as one, not as a gold plated toybox, where new staff retain conditions from the golden age of public service fundings.

Its time will come, the railway requires twice the subsidy per passenger-km of the road network and is far less efficient.

 

[northwichcat]

To change the contracts of ALL rail workers affected, remembering this will not just be train crews, will need renegotiating, so logically the way to get agreement will be to offer more money. If bus drivers already have that in their contract then your point is worthless.

I note that your have totally ignored the maintenance point! :roll:

Did you quote the wrong post? neilb62 implied the trains would be replaced by buses anyway so on that point I changed the argument to getting bus drivers to work on Christmas Day. I imagine it could be harder to get bus driver's contracts changed - in my town there's no Bank Holiday buses but a full rail service (except on 25th and 26th December) which is usually very well utilised. However, offering bus drivers 3 times as much pay as they usually get to work Boxing Day could well attract them in to agreeing to work on 26th December.

 

[Carlisle]

Here we are talking about Boxing day services and yet today at least 5 of the HSTs i dispatched less then 5 passengers were on board and on three (two up and one down services) the only people on board was the Guard and the Buffet car staff!

I could understand if this was early morning but this between 08:45 (i started at 08:00) and 10:00, my colleague who was at work from 06:00 said to me he could of counted the amount of passengers boarding trains on one hand. The most i counted boarding was 14 and that was around 11:00. Yet i am told by people that demand for trains are there, yet these figures clearly show there isnt, as every HST i dispatched until i finished at around 16:00 was mostly carrying non paying 'Fresh Air'.

PS: Sorry for going off topic, please dont delete the post as i think it is relevant whist not within the context of what the original poster was posing.

Yes, I'm sure most latent Boxing Day demand is for fairly local services predominantly in the more urban areas , visiting sales/local friends & relatives, with most people still perfectly happy to postpone spending hours on the long distance routes for another day or so

 

[northwichcat]

Why should we have added pressures in our working life when there really is no need?

Are you happy for no-one to work between the evening of the 24th December and first thing on 27th December? That would mean no emergency services, hospitals closing, shops being closed, TV shutting down, the Internet being on severely reduced service, parks being closed (where people commonly go on Boxing Day) etc. If not why shouldn't the railways be operating?

 

[dk1]

My problem is I pay for those perks via my taxes. If the railway is being funded as a public service (which I'm mostly in favour of, although the attitudes of the unions and militant staff move my X towards the tories), it should be run as one, not as a gold plated toybox, where new staff retain conditions from the golden age of public service fundings.

Its time will come, the railway requires twice the subsidy per passenger-km of the road network and is far less efficient.

More of the cost is now coming from the farebox, we do not retain conditions from what you call the golden age, I am not militant & abide by my contract & I voted Conservative at the last election. Anything else is up for negotiation.

 

[northwichcat]

Yes, I'm sure most latent Boxing Day demand will be for fairly local services, visiting sales/local friends & relatives, with most still perfectly happy to postpone spending hours on the long distance routes

I don't think there would be much difference between demand on 27th December last year and potential demand on 26th December this year. Those who have to work on the weekdays between Christmas and New Year can't make a lengthy trip home by rail on 27th or go to the Boxing Day sales on the 27th but this year they could and trains were rammed.

 

[dk1]

Are you happy for no-one to work between the evening of the 24th December and first thing on 27th December? That would mean no emergency services, hospitals closing, shops being closed, TV shutting down, the Internet being on severely reduced service, parks being closed (where people commonly go on Boxing Day) etc. If not why shouldn't the railways be operating?

Oh that old chestnut again. They knew that when they took those jobs. Yes no driving trains for me on Christmas or Boxing Day. I was brought up in a pub where my parents worked 365 days a year with some of the busiest being Christmas & Boxing Day so don't preach at me pal.

 

[Mintona]

If the TOCs actually wanted to run a Boxing Day service, I'm sure they'd be able to. I've never been asked to come in, but I'd quite happily do it for the right price (double time?)

 

[dk1]

If the TOCs actually wanted to run a Boxing Day service, I'm sure they'd be able to. I've never been asked to come in, but I'd quite happily do it for the right price (double time?)

Don't sell yourself short, double time & a day in lieu at the very very least.

 

[Mintona]

Don't sell yourself short, double time & a day in lieu at the very very least.

I have to save an annual leave day for Christmas and Boxing Day so would gain an extra leave day if I worked anyway. I believe my contract actually states that if I'm required to work Boxing Day then it's treated like any other day wth regards to leave quotas etc, and quite possibly with no pay enhancement (I'd have to double check).

However, in reality, the TOC doesn't want to run trains, so it's a bit of a moot point.

 

[northwichcat]

Oh that old chestnut again. They knew that when they took those jobs. Yes no driving trains for me on Christmas or Boxing Day.

Really? A BBC employee who has worked for them since the 1980s knew that in 2016 BBC channels not only wouldn't shut down overnight but there would be a lot more of them plus there would be 24/7 365 online operations?

I was brought up in a pub where my parents worked 365 days a year with some of the busiest being Christmas & Boxing Day so don't preach at me pal.

So your parents chose to work Christmas & Boxing Day because it made business sense, while you would never work Christmas or Boxing Day because you don't want to.

Anyway why don't you answer my question (ignore the part about hospital staff and emergency service staff if you want.)

 

[dk1]

Anyway why don't you answer my question (ignore the part about hospital staff and emergency service staff if you want.)

Read it again. I put "they knew that when they took those jobs" :roll:

It doesn't make business sense on the railway & its NOT in my contract.

Are you associated with the British Broadcasting Corporation?

 

[Failed Unit]

I won't go around the "it doesn't make business sense to open the railway circle again" as it can't be proven either way.

For interest how difficult is it to get staff to work New Year's Eve (as last train on my route was 0234 arriving at Peterborough after 0400) surely that is the worse shift of the year. Likewise you need to be restrained with you activities before hand as you don't want to lose your job from too much alcohol the day before. Is it hard getting people to work then?

 

[GB]

Are you happy for no-one to work between the evening of the 24th December and first thing on 27th December? That would mean no emergency services, hospitals closing, shops being closed, TV shutting down, the Internet being on severely reduced service, parks being closed (where people commonly go on Boxing Day) etc. If not why shouldn't the railways be operating?

Bar emergency services, hospitals and gas/electric companies, I have no problem with the others shutting down for two days or being or "severely reduced" service.

 

[dk1]

I won't go around the "it doesn't make business sense to open the railway circle again" as it can't be proven either way.

For interest how difficult is it to get staff to work New Year's Eve (as last train on my route was 0234 arriving at Peterborough after 0400) surely that is the worse shift of the year. Likewise you need to be restrained with you activities before hand as you don't want to lose your job from too much alcohol the day before. Is it hard getting people to work then?

New Years Eve/New Years Day are just normal shifts for most Traincrew. We for instance have the agreement of 5 weeks Annual Leave, 7 Annual leave loose days & the guarantee to not be booked on duty on the 25th & 26th December.

 

[northwichcat]

It doesn't make business sense on the railway

What's the BCR for providing services to Stansted Airport on Boxing Day? Unless you know your statement is nothing more than your opinion.

Read it again. I put "they knew that when they took those jobs" :roll:

Which is not an answer and incorrect in some cases. Newer employees may have had it in their contracts since they joined but older ones aren't still on the same contracts as when they joined.

More people will end up working on Boxing Day unless we cut back on what's available to do on Boxing Day which will only strengthen the BCR for providing Boxing Day trains services. Therefore, if you want a train service shut down on Boxing Day you need to consider which luxuries you don't require on Boxing Day. TV? Internet?

Are you associated with the British Broadcasting Corporation?

No but I know a lot of people who work there, as well as others who work for companies who do work on behalf of the BBC.

 

[dk1]

What's the BCR for providing services to Stansted Airport on Boxing Day? Unless you know your statement is nothing more than your opinion.



Which is not an answer and incorrect in some cases. Newer employees may have had it in their contracts since they joined but older ones aren't still on the same contracts as when they joined.

More people will end up working on Boxing Day unless we cut back on what's available to do on Boxing Day which will only strengthen the BCR for providing Boxing Day trains services. Therefore, if you want a train service shut down on Boxing Day you need to consider which luxuries you don't require on Boxing Day. TV? Internet?

Stansted Express serving an Airport probably needs a service but that's it. I'm not interested in what sporting or shopping events that are on & not that bothered if TV went off all day long. Keep providing me with booze on my guaranteed two days off per year and I am a very happy bunny.

If any of my colleagues wish to volunteer then that's absolutely fine. My name will never be on that list. As for nothing more than my opinion, kettles & pots springs to mind.

 

[Clip]

So your parents chose to work Christmas & Boxing Day because it made business sense, while you would never work Christmas or Boxing Day because you don't want to.

I think you'll find is that he doesn't have to not doesn't want to.

 

[Failed Unit]

Unless you are working on the 27th that is.

But although that was joke that is exactly why I can see railway staff not wanting to work the 26th. They can't totally relax on Christmas Day as they will have at the back of their mind I don't want to fail an alcohol test tomorrow. I know many that drink nothing 24 hours before their shift as a result. I know it impacts other industries where driving is a major part of the job.

Likewise I can see why the unions would be reluctant to see new starters have the 26th in their contracts. Correct me if I am wrong, but if a vote to change contracts for everyone took place the ballot must be placed in front of everyone for it to count? Why would someone who isn't impacted by the change vote either way?

 

[dk1]

Unless you are working on the 27th that is.

Likewise I can see why the unions would be reluctant to see new starters have the 26th in their contracts. Correct me if I am wrong, but if a vote to change contracts for everyone took place the ballot must be placed in front of everyone for it to count? Why would someone who isn't impacted by the change vote either way?

Depends on what Union is involved. ASLEF would never allow a 2-tier contract at any one particular branch. Once you are a driver you work to the agreed conditions that apply to that particular depot.

Management once tried to bring a clause in that any new driver (except those who where employed by BR prior to 1997) could not leave to work for another TOC for a minimum of 2yrs after training. A proposal was as far as it got & was laughed out of boardroom.

 

[northwichcat]

Management once tried to bring a clause in that any new driver (except those who where employed by BR prior to 1997) could not leave to work for another TOC for a minimum of 2yrs after training. A proposal was as far as it got & was laughed out of boardroom.

2yrs hardly sounds unreasonable given the TOC funds the driver training. Although it might create a complication if franchise maps are redrawn.

 

[dk1]

2yrs hardly sounds unreasonable given the TOC funds the driver training. Although it might create a complication if franchise maps are redrawn.

I think the main issue was they tried to bring it in for some & not others. At the time TOCs where a new thing & they brought in ambitious & often bolshy managers many with retail or military backgrounds who expected to shake things up & do it their way. Oh boy where they in for a shock.

 

[FordFocus]

Does that translate in to English as "TOCs have staff on contracts which say they get 26th December off so it's too much hassle to try to run trains on 26th December when there is the risk of staff going on strike and the revenue lost through industrial action being higher than the revenue they'd predict to make by running a service on 26th December"?

Are you suggesting that staff will go on strike because they don't want to work on a day they aren't actually contracted to work anyway? Really?

 

[FordFocus]

My problem is I pay for those perks via my taxes. If the railway is being funded as a public service (which I'm mostly in favour of, although the attitudes of the unions and militant staff move my X towards the tories), it should be run as one, not as a gold plated toybox, where new staff retain conditions from the golden age of public service fundings.

Its time will come, the railway requires twice the subsidy per passenger-km of the road network and is far less efficient.

I love a good anti-staff rant on here. How dare they get decent terms and conditions. But that comments gets all the ticks from me. "taxpayer paying for perks", "attitudes of the unions", "militant staff", "gold plated toybox" It's like reading the comments on the Daily Mail website

 

[SPADTrap]

I love a good anti-staff rant on here. How dare they get decent terms and conditions. But that comments gets all the ticks from me. "taxpayer paying for perks", "attitudes of the unions", "militant staff", "gold plated toybox" It's like reading the comments on the Daily Mail website

They're so dull aren't they people beaten by the system years ago looking to ensure others get the same!

 

[Legzr1]

They're so dull aren't they people beaten by the system years ago looking to ensure others get the same!

Not forgetting that railstaff earning good money pay taxes to fund their hospital and GP appointments after half-arsed rants raise their blood pressure.

That has to be be a good deal for them

 

[dk1]

Not forgetting that railstaff earning good money pay taxes to fund their hospital and GP appointments after half-arsed rants raise their blood pressure.

That has to be be a good deal for them

My uncle once dared to say to me at a do that he was a taxpayer & therefore he was my boss, I shut him up by telling him that I was a taxpayer & therefore that made me self employed. Didn't go down well but I've been proud of that ever since.

 

[northwichcat]

Are you suggesting that staff will go on strike because they don't want to work on a day they aren't actually contracted to work anyway? Really?

No I'm suggesting contracts will be amended. It could happen as part of a proposed pay offer as I already suggested e.g. if you want the annual 5% increase and 2 extra days holiday you must accept working on 26th December. Or it could be much worse - think about what could happen if a new franchise doesn't choose to TUPE over existing employees - which they don't have to unless DfT require them to. A choice of a new contract or no job could well result in industrial action!

 

[northwichcat]

Not really,can you get 1000 passengers on a bus?

It depends which lines you refer to. Double decker buses can hold as many passengers as some of the trains running in the East Midlands can. While I've seen Optare Solos running rail replacement services in London where for most people there's a better alternative than using the replacement road service.