The annual "Boxing Day Trains" row.

[Sunset route]

Meanwhile the rail industry still acts as if everything needs a big negotiation.

Not the Network Rail side of things, that was sorted out after 1994 dispute with Railtrack with the 1994 agreement. Where by signallers are contracted and do work on Christmas Day & Boxing Day regardless if any trains run or not, especially in the big signalling centres (ROCs, SCCs, IESSs, PSBs & ASCs and maybe RETBs), with other smaller signalboxes remaining open to pass engineering trains if required. I myself have worked a many a Christmas period, but my local TOC is one that is contracted to run a Boxing Day service so no sitting on my bum doing nothing lol.

 

[jimbo99]

I remember a similar thread last year. I made myself very unpopular for arguing against the Boxing Day shut down. Think I was compared to Hitler at one point. Came back from work and was unable to reply because the thread had been locked as Boxing Day was over.

In the end, all these issues are cummulative. Whether it's 70s style industrial relations, penalty fare regimes/complex ticketing that people can't understand (or feel cheated by), or indeed the Boxing Day shutdown, public support for railway workers will dwindle and support for government intervention (eg strike bans) will increase. A friend of mine who is now an RMT official (I knew him before he was on the railways) was quite shocked at the contempt a group of my friends had for him because of his attitudes. Since joining the railway, he has "gone native".

Thousands are working today. Some by choice, some because that's the way the rosta works. Many of those don't actually feel exploited or think there is anything wrong in it. They joined a service industry and it works both ways.

The railway industry looks soooo out of touch these days. Hopefully the government will intervene - perhaps it will if the unions continue their disruption and they feel they have enough public support. I think a Sunday-style service would be a reasonable expectation, engineering work excepted.

Nobody should be forced to work on Boxing Day, anybody is free to resign.

 

[Carntyne]

I guess I'm lucky that no-one in my household needs to work on Boxing Day now, but last year, my mother needed to do it as part of her contract. She wouldn't have been able to show up if we lived in an area without the tube.

Nonsense. She could get a taxi or drive to work?

 

[Carntyne]

I remember a similar thread last year. I made myself very unpopular for arguing against the Boxing Day shut down. Think I was compared to Hitler at one point. Came back from work and was unable to reply because the thread had been locked as Boxing Day was over.

In the end, all these issues are cummulative. Whether it's 70s style industrial relations, penalty fare regimes/complex ticketing that people can't understand (or feel cheated by), or indeed the Boxing Day shutdown, public support for railway workers will dwindle and support for government intervention (eg strike bans) will increase. A friend of mine who is now an RMT official (I knew him before he was on the railways) was quite shocked at the contempt a group of my friends had for him because of his attitudes. Since joining the railway, he has "gone native".

Thousands are working today. Some by choice, some because that's the way the rosta works. Many of those don't actually feel exploited or think there is anything wrong in it. They joined a service industry and it works both ways.

The railway industry looks soooo out of touch these days. Hopefully the government will intervene - perhaps it will if the unions continue their disruption and they feel they have enough public support. I think a Sunday-style service would be a reasonable expectation, engineering work excepted.

Nobody should be forced to work on Boxing Day, anybody is free to resign.

It's in my contract that I'll have Christmas and Boxing Day off. If they want to change that then they can try and negotiate with my trade union. If TOCs/DFT wanted to run a service on these days why would they put this in the contracts?

 

[The Planner]

Like has been already said and I have mentioned recently in another thread, TOCs can bid on boxing day if they want which will go through a SOAR panel. The access rights dont have to be given though. Xmas and boxing day are the only two "free" days we get where compensation doesnt have to be paid as nothing is running.

 

[gareth950]

Surely Sunday service levels need to be sorted out as more of a priority than Boxing Day? For example local Sunday services on most of the non-mainline ATW network are 2 hourly and don't even follow a regular timetable pattern.
There haven't been many Sunday services on the Valley lines this year anyway due to the CASR work, but the replacement bus services have been more regular and frequent than the actual Sunday train services!

 

[SPADTrap]

Wind them up & let them go. They bore us with this drivel every year. I like to bore them with the fact I personally will never drive a train on Christmas or Boxing Day, end of.

Likewise brother!

 

[Skimble19]

Considering how quiet Christmas Eve seemed this year on GN I can't imagine there being massive demand for Boxing Day services, certainly not on our patch, and certainly not enough demand to make it worthwhile trying to persuade the amount of staff needed to run a service to come in.

 

[Clip]

I knwo its political posturing but I dont remember Labour doing much about it during the large boom years when they were in power but I dont begrudge drivers not working on Boxing day - its their perogative and there will be some at each TOC who would do but its the add on staff aswell to add to the overall costs but hey im sure sooner or later this will come about if only a skeleton service on most lines.

 

[Bellbell]

I remember a similar thread last year. I made myself very unpopular for arguing against the Boxing Day shut down. Think I was compared to Hitler at one point. Came back from work and was unable to reply because the thread had been locked as Boxing Day was over.

In the end, all these issues are cummulative. Whether it's 70s style industrial relations, penalty fare regimes/complex ticketing that people can't understand (or feel cheated by), or indeed the Boxing Day shutdown, public support for railway workers will dwindle and support for government intervention (eg strike bans) will increase. A friend of mine who is now an RMT official (I knew him before he was on the railways) was quite shocked at the contempt a group of my friends had for him because of his attitudes. Since joining the railway, he has "gone native".

Thousands are working today. Some by choice, some because that's the way the rosta works. Many of those don't actually feel exploited or think there is anything wrong in it. They joined a service industry and it works both ways.

The railway industry looks soooo out of touch these days. Hopefully the government will intervene - perhaps it will if the unions continue their disruption and they feel they have enough public support. I think a Sunday-style service would be a reasonable expectation, engineering work excepted.

Nobody should be forced to work on Boxing Day, anybody is free to resign.

Surely then we don't need any employment laws, since people can just quit if they don't like something about their jobs?

I joined an industry which does not require me to work Christmas Day or Boxing Day. I don't want that to change. If my company does, they'll need to make a case for it, and make it worth my while. As things stand there is nothing I can realistically think of that I'd accept in return for Boxing Day working.

Would you personally be prepared to pay extra to travel on Boxing Day? Because it'll come down to money in the end.

 

[CyrusWuff]

If trains were running on key routes, I reckon you'd get some usage...but nowhere near enough revenue to come anywhere close to covering costs, given the enhanced rate of pay needed to get people to volunteer to work. (My contract guarantees a minimum of double time for work done between 00:01 on Christmas Day and 23:59 on Boxing Day, for example).

 

[bramling]

"Shadow transport secretary Andy McDonald said: "Tory ministers' handling of the Boxing Day rail standstill is making it much harder for families and friends to visit one another this Christmas break."

"In opposition the Tories attacked the Boxing Day rail shutdown. They've now had more than six years to do something about it but haven't.

"Their lack of action, even despite the chaos of previous years, gives the impression they don't really care about it at all. The Tory hypocrisy on this issue is astounding."

A Department for Transport spokeswoman said: "Deciding the level of service on specific days is a matter for train operators.

"But we know some passengers want to travel on Boxing Day, and that's why we have worked with the rail industry to ensure there are limited services on some franchises on that day, and that the scope for Boxing Day services is considered when we are planning future franchises."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-38432018

Debate closes at midnight tonight.

Personal opinion, but a big "no" to Boxing Day services from me.

The way I see it, we have a typical self-centered attitude from some people that they want Christmas off themselves, but yet expect all the normal features of daily life to be available. Guess what? These things require people to provide them, who also would like Christmas off.

It's not like there aren't 363 other days to do things.

If we're going to have a Boxing Day service, then forget about the whole concept of Christmas, and let's just make it a normal working day, and the same goes for Christmas Day too. At least then *all* the normal range of daily services will be available for *everyone*, which is only fair.

Otherwise, life-or-death essential services only, and rail isn't one of those.

(Rant over!).

As an aside, I notice that some stations which are closed but unsecured today seem to have working TVMs, certainly on GTR anyway. A lot of people are buying tickets and then finding there are no trains. Personally seen a few do so today.

 

[PHILIPE]

Surely Sunday service levels need to be sorted out as more of a priority than Boxing Day? For example local Sunday services on most of the non-mainline ATW network are 2 hourly and don't even follow a regular timetable pattern.
There haven't been many Sunday services on the Valley lines this year anyway due to the CASR work, but the replacement bus services have been more regular and frequent than the actual Sunday train services!

Many routes have to rely on funding from outside bodies such as Councils.

 

[MrPIC]

I got pressed into working Boxing Day this year due to not enough volunteers. I believe it was started years ago strictly on a volunteer only basis, but of course after a few years the company said that the public now expected a service so if not enough volunteers came forward, people would be booked on regardless. Won't be long before we have trains on Xmas day itself.

 

[jimbo99]

Surely then we don't need any employment laws, since people can just quit if they don't like something about their jobs?

I would certainly roll back some employment law, but not all of it.

I joined an industry which does not require me to work Christmas Day or Boxing Day. I don't want that to change. If my company does, they'll need to make a case for it,

But I don't accept that level of entrenchment. I don't see why employers should have to "make a case" to workers if they wish to make changes. They certainly don't in much of the private sector. Employment contracts can be changed subject to notice.

Would you personally be prepared to pay extra to travel on Boxing Day? Because it'll come down to money in the end.

I don't expect to have to pay more if I go down to the pub tonight, catch a bus, or get my haircut. So my answer is "no". Of course, not all businesses are open today. Some are doing sales and discounting. Some might be effectively charging more by not discounting as much as they would otherwise.

In the case of the railway service, I think some sort of Sunday service with Sunday pricing would be appropriate albeit with a later start and exceptions for engineering work.

 

[bramling]

Surely Sunday service levels need to be sorted out as more of a priority than Boxing Day?

A very good point. On GTR, for example, the weekend service has been awful, at times almost un-usable, for many months now. For those of us who use weekend services, get this house in order before even thinking about providing a Boxing Day service to take a few people to retail events.

 

[Bookd]

The issue is that people's expectations of Christmas have changed over the years and may change again.
I am old enough to remember when there was a full programme of football fixtures on Christmas Day, with the return fixtures on Boxing Day, and spectators and indeed players would go by train to and between matches; I have read that most actors would spend Christmas Day on the train (or changing at Crewe!) on their way to play in panto on Boxing Day. Buses and tubes also ran, with an earlier than usual finish, and this was considered to be the normal way of things.
Services fell away due to lack of demand, but that might return.
On a local basis Kempton Park racecourse has its busiest day of the year on Boxing Day, and has park and ride services and bus links to the Underground; as it is one of the few racecourses with its own railway station it is odd that it has no trains on the day when they are most needed.

 

[Bellbell]

I would certainly roll back some employment law, but not all of it.

Why though? If people don't like their terms and conditions they can resign, no? That's what you said about railway terms and conditions around Christmas working. Sauce for the goose...

But I don't accept that level of entrenchment. I don't see why employers should have to "make a case" to workers if they wish to make changes. They certainly don't in much of the private sector. Employment contracts can be changed subject to notice.

This is going to sound much harsher than I intend, but that's nice. It doesn't really matter whether you accept it or not. At the moment that's what the situation is.

I don't expect to have to pay more if I go down to the pub tonight, catch a bus, or get my haircut. So my answer is "no". Of course, not all businesses are open today. Some are doing sales and discounting. Some might be effectively charging more by not discounting as much as they would otherwise.

In the case of the railway service, I think some sort of Sunday service with Sunday pricing would be appropriate albeit with a later start and exceptions for engineering work.

So who should fund the services then? If you don't want to pay extra where do you expect the money to come from? If you don't want to pay extra you're clearly not that reliant on a train service operating.

 

[Envy123]

Nonsense. She could get a taxi or drive to work?

That could be fine if we hypothetically lived in any of the places within London, like Surbiton. But most places in Hertfordshire would be a problem, and driving would take hours as we wouldn't be the only ones chancing it on the roads.

Exceptions would be places served by the Metropolitan Line or Potters Bar (which does have buses to Cockfosters or High Barnet).

 

[Bertie the bus]

The "greatest investment in the railways since Victorian times" is in tatters yet the Labour Party haven't noticed. They have been given an open goal, an enlarged goal mouth and still the Labour team are in the changing room arguing over the shirts.

It’s in tatters because of the incompetence of the rail industry, not politicians. Perhaps Labour aren’t making a big fuss about it because they know that – not that it’s stopped politicians doing so previously.

 

[jon0844]

Many retailers are now under pressure to close Boxing Day and at least one is trialling closure in some places. Social media seems to be doing the usual attacking of those retailers who are advertising opening today.

If the Tories made trains run, I am sure Labour and the unions would not be happy. Now Labour is saying trains should run! One might think they're just going to say anything at this stage.

BTW, I'm in Lea Valley Park and just seen two Stansted Express trains pass as they're not exactly busy (mind you, they were both 8 car so people may be spread out). It's a bit odd that if these are running, no other trains are.

 

[dk1]

BTW, I'm in Lea Valley Park and just seen two Stansted Express trains pass as they're not exactly busy (mind you, they were both 8 car so people may be spread out). It's a bit odd that if these are running, no other trains are.

I would imagine they are running with those drivers that have volunteered today & you'd struggle to get enough to advertise a reliable or robust service other than that. STx is only running at 50% of the normal frequency. Greater Anglia also suffers from being at least 3 seperate companies when it comes to drivers. Those working for WA/Stansted, Great Eastern & Anglia Railways all have seperate working agreements that NX never succeeded in harmonising from 2004-2012 then Abellio didn't bother in their short term franchises until this year.

 

[SPADTrap]

That's OK , The answer is just to get on and recruit other staff twho will.

You're the easiest type to wind up

Please respect my religious beliefs.

 

[Carntyne]

That could be fine if we hypothetically lived in any of the places within London, like Surbiton. But most places in Hertfordshire would be a problem, and driving would take hours as we wouldn't be the only ones chancing it on the roads.

Exceptions would be places served by the Metropolitan Line or Potters Bar (which does have buses to Cockfosters or High Barnet).

So it is possible to get a taxi or drive then?

 

[bramling]

Many retailers are now under pressure to close Boxing Day and at least one is trialling closure in some places.

Good.

I would really like to see the retail obsession stripped from Christmas. The low point was two years ago when for me Christmas was heavily marred by what became a retail frenzy from October right through to January.

 

[route:oxford]

Good.

I would really like to see the retail obsession stripped from Christmas. The low point was two years ago when for me Christmas was heavily marred by what became a retail frenzy from October right through to January.

So a single day of the year was "marred" because you disapprove of other people buying stuff?

Utter nonsense.

 

[bramling]

So a single day of the year was "marred" because you disapprove of other people buying stuff?

Utter nonsense.

Nope, a whole four months of chaos anywhere remotely near a retail park. Things were rather more civilized last year, and this year seems to be similar.

 

[SPADTrap]

So a single day of the year was "marred" because you disapprove of other people buying stuff?

Utter nonsense.

In his opinion, yes?

 

[Chester1]

My two cents is that if there sufficient public demand for it then the government would make Sunday service level on boxing day a condition of franchises. There are a surprising number of stations e.g. Edge Hill in Liverpool or Llandudno that do not have services on Sundays, so I would very much doubt there is a sufficient demand in large sections of the country for Boxing day. I am surprised that Grand Central and Hull Trains do not run services on boxing day. With no competition from VTEC, Northern or Transpennine they could pack services using advanced ticket only and showcase their services to non regular rail users. I suspect most rail staff would not object if offered treble pay.

 

[Bellbell]

My two cents is that if there sufficient public demand for it then the government would make Sunday service level on boxing day a condition of franchises. There are a surprising number of stations e.g. Edge Hill in Liverpool or Llandudno that do not have services on Sundays, so I would very much doubt there is a sufficient demand in large sections of the country for Boxing day. I am surprised that Grand Central and Hull Trains do not run services on boxing day. With no competition from VTEC, Northern or Transpennine they could pack services using advanced ticket only and showcase their services to non regular rail users. I suspect most rail staff would not object if offered treble pay.

How would you make the services advanced ticket only? You can't stop people with walk up tickets using them, that's kind of the point of walk up tickets. Add in the usual inability of some of the general public to understand the terms and conditions of advance tickets and you've got a right barrel of laughs going on.

I'd have no problem with my colleagues choosing to work for whatever level of pay entices them but it would inevitably lead to compulsory working for the rest of us after a few years. And once it's compulsory why would they pay any more?