The annual "Boxing Day Trains" row.

[Dave1987]

My bank only closes on Christmas Day, it is open on every other day (and the Internet banking is 24-7). I really don't understand why anyone branch-banks, it is so much less convenient than the other options.

Because I choose to want to be served by a human being. We have had this discussion before. I like to have human interaction in my life. I would love to go into my banks local branch on a Sunday, but I can't because they are closed. They only recently started to open on as Saturday afternoon.

 

[Bletchleyite]

So why don't we just ditch Christmas all together and make it a normal day where everyone works?

That would be extreme, but it *could*, as it is in most other countries, simply become another standard public holiday, though perhaps without retail. Though I do like the idea of it being a *bit* different. Easter Sunday has a lot of retail etc closed, it could be like that.

The UK is unique in Europe in shutting down the way it does. In Germany, for example, it's the same as any other public holiday.

As for Boxing Day that *is* near enough the same as any other public holiday, so public transport really should match.

 

[Sunset route]

I suppose we are looking at jobs that have to work and those that we would like to work. For those jobs those who seek where you have to work over the Christmas period, them you should know the score before they apply or at least find out during the application for the said jobs. For the ones that signed contracts where they don't work over the Christmas period, well we have to wait until the contracts get renegotiated under National Collective Bargaining to fulfill our needs for a 24/7 365 society.

You either work a contract that requires you to or be available to work Christmas or you don't. I don't see the point of discussing other people's work contracts because we demand they be at our beck and call.

The signalling grade is contracted to work over Christmas as required like any other bank holiday, the only difference is at the moment is it's done on a voluntary bases (well at least at my place of work).

 

[Dave1987]

That would be extreme, but it *could*, as it is in most other countries, simply become another standard public holiday, though perhaps without retail. Though I do like the idea of it being a *bit* different. Easter Sunday has a lot of retail etc closed, it could be like that.

The UK is unique in Europe in shutting down the way it does. In Germany, for example, it's the same as any other public holiday.

As for Boxing Day that *is* near enough the same as any other public holiday, so public transport really should match.

Not extreme at all. If people are going to demand all in public transport work Boxing Day (which means they cannot have a drink on Christmas Day evening!) then we may as well just ditch Christmas Day all together. We are getting to a stage where huge amounts of the workforce are expected to work during the Christmas period so why should it only be for those who work office hours?

 

[J-2739]

So why don't we just ditch Christmas all together and make it a normal day where everyone works?

Erm, because Christmas is a religious holiday, and that can't be changed?

 

[Bellbell]

Because, erm, someone asked a question in the previous post to the one you have quoted?

Could have done with you a few pages ago

 

[Dave1987]

Erm, because Christmas is a religious holiday, and that can't be changed?

Mind telling that to those who seem to believe people should be working to enable them to get to the sales and football.

 

[miami]

You don't see the difference between the emergency services running and the railways running? The emergency services need to be able to use roads, communication and electricity. As for airports, I've never flown on either Christmas Day or Boxing Day.

Hotels, pubs, the internet and phones. TV, electricity and gas, plumbers, border control, cleaners, the local newsagents, taxi drivers, fishermen, farmers, farriers, vets. All of these are open on christmas day.

Extend to Boxing day and you get football matches, most shops are open and they're restocked (which happened overnight or on christmas day), newspapers were printed overnight, delivered far and wide across the country. I see very little that's closed on boxing day but open on a normal bank holiday. A friend of mine is a freelance vision mixer, was doing a TV show on the 26th, she had to get a lift there rather than take the train as normal.

I wouldn't use the train service on boxing day, but then I rarely use it on a Sunday given the shoddy service on my line, however I know many who would, they don't work in emergency services, but I suspect that many "I won't work boxing day" types would be unhappy if they didn't do their jobs.

 

[miami]

Erm, because Christmas is a religious holiday, and that can't be changed?

Why not? It used to be a pagan holiday celebrating drunkerdness until the puritains took it over.

 

[alex17595]

And many will be the blue hat, shiny PPE, usually in the office brigade just out to claim the christmas working bonus. These are usually the ones picking up on the petty things

There was a lot of clean High Visibility where I was working!

 

[Domh245]

Erm, because Christmas is a religious holiday, and that can't be changed?

Much like Easter Sunday, Eid-Al-Fatr, Vesak, Diwali, etc? If you make the religious argument, and then limit it just to christian festivals, surely the Easter Triduum should deserve an equally large shutdown as christmas, what with Easter being the most important holiday in the christian faith.

 

[6Gman]

My bank only closes on Christmas Day, it is open on every other day (and the Internet banking is 24-7). I really don't understand why anyone branch-banks, it is so much less convenient than the other options.

I always find stuffing cheques or banknotes into my laptop, or down the phone, unsatisfactory.



(Especially when it's other people's money.)

 

[philthetube]

Interesting how much blame rail staff are receiving when the reality is they have not been asked to work.

 

[Bellbell]

Hotels, pubs, the internet and phones. TV, electricity and gas, plumbers, border control, cleaners, the local newsagents, taxi drivers, fishermen, farmers, farriers, vets. All of these are open on christmas day.

Extend to Boxing day and you get football matches, most shops are open and they're restocked (which happened overnight or on christmas day), newspapers were printed overnight, delivered far and wide across the country. I see very little that's closed on boxing day but open on a normal bank holiday. A friend of mine is a freelance vision mixer, was doing a TV show on the 26th, she had to get a lift there rather than take the train as normal.

I wouldn't use the train service on boxing day, but then I rarely use it on a Sunday given the shoddy service on my line, however I know many who would, they don't work in emergency services, but I suspect that many "I won't work boxing day" types would be unhappy if they didn't do their jobs.

My local newsagent wasn't open. Of the rest of your list, a lot I've never used on Christmas Day or Boxing Day, others I can see the need for but assume they often are self employed and thus have a large element of choice. That leaves a few on your list with whom I sympathise because they presumably have no choice. I'm painting with a broad brush here, there will be some that would normally be self employed but aren't etc, I know. That doesn't change the fact that I don't want to work though! Also, the fact that some of those jobs work over the festive period doesn't mean I agree with them working.

But if all those professions work, and in your eyes are right to be working, why not others? Why not council offices? Banks? Law firms? Hairdressers? Why the arbitrary distinction?

Interesting how much blame rail staff are receiving when the reality is they have not been asked to work.

Very true!

 

[D1009]

That would be extreme, but it *could*, as it is in most other countries, simply become another standard public holiday, though perhaps without retail. Though I do like the idea of it being a *bit* different. Easter Sunday has a lot of retail etc closed, it could be like that.

The UK is unique in Europe in shutting down the way it does. In Germany, for example, it's the same as any other public holiday.

As for Boxing Day that *is* near enough the same as any other public holiday, so public transport really should match.

Ah, but we voted out of Europe, didn't we? Dec 26th isn't even a public holiday in Belgium despite Christmas Day being a Sunday. I'm currently on my way back from there after a pleasant few days rail travel.

 

[LAX54]

Hotels, pubs, the internet and phones. TV, electricity and gas, plumbers, border control, cleaners, the local newsagents, taxi drivers, fishermen, farmers, farriers, vets. All of these are open on christmas day.

Extend to Boxing day and you get football matches, most shops are open and they're restocked (which happened overnight or on christmas day), newspapers were printed overnight, delivered far and wide across the country. I see very little that's closed on boxing day but open on a normal bank holiday. A friend of mine is a freelance vision mixer, was doing a TV show on the 26th, she had to get a lift there rather than take the train as normal.

I wouldn't use the train service on boxing day, but then I rarely use it on a Sunday given the shoddy service on my line, however I know many who would, they don't work in emergency services, but I suspect that many "I won't work boxing day" types would be unhappy if they didn't do their jobs.

Hotels: Yes its what they do, but they do know how to charge for it !
Pubs: No, most round my way are closed on the 25th
Internet: Yes that works, if it fails it will not be fixed until the 27th at the VERY earliest
TV, Yes that works, mainly through auto playout.
Electricty, Yes that works, but Offices shut and just on call staff.
Plumbers: Yeah right, unless your a millionaire ! LOL
Border Control: Just part of the job
Cleaners.. Doubt it very much !
Newsagents, some are open, many are closed, but its owners choice !
Taxi Drivers, again some work, but charge a big premium
Fishrermen, I assume some must work
Framers: Yes they work, ilfestyle choice ?
Vets: Only out of hours, again you have to be rich to afford it
Farriers: Dont know !

So the upshot is, if you are prepared to pay, then you can get a Taxi, or a Vet, so, based on that, IF we run a service all over the Country on the 26th, should fares be increased by 50% to cater for it ?

As someone else has said for Network Rail both 25th and 26th are almost a normal working day !

 

[LAX54]

And many will be the blue hat, shiny PPE, usually in the office brigade just out to claim the christmas working bonus. These are usually the ones picking up on the petty things

I am not sure that is 100% correct, I cant imagine a roster clerk, or train planner, on a relaying or resignalling job !

 

[09065]

As someone else has said for Network Rail both 25th and 26th are almost a normal working day !

Paid at an extremely premium rate though.
Treble time for signallers and controllers to at start with - so staffed as lean as possible.

 

[II]

If I'm not mistake Bicester Village pay a sizeable premium for the Boxing day service. And I believe you are wildly optimistic about the numbers who would willingly volunteer for Boxing Day. The pay would have to be lucrative and that would end up costing the TOC's more than they would get in revenue. Where does is stop? People start demanding a service on Christmas Day are the railways expected to comply with that demand?

Bicester Vilage do indeed contribute towards the Chiltern service. I should make it clear that in no way do I think this would be a profitable service for any TOC, it's merely part of providing a service to its customers - that's why I specifically mentioned that the DfT should write it into the franchise agreements. After all, a large percentage of normal timetabled services currently run at the expense of the taxpayer because they form part of the minimum service requirements of a franchise bid. A Boxing Day service should run on the same principle.

I would imagine (though I have no way of proving it), that if you offer the same as Chiltern, i.e. time plus double time, you'd have no problem getting 10% of the workforce signing up,

As for where does it stop? I guess it stope at the point your customers don't want it, which I'm pretty sure rules out any sort of Christmas Day service.

 

[221129]

Bicester Vilage do indeed contribute towards the Chiltern service. I should make it clear that in no way do I think this would be a profitable service for any TOC, it's merely part of providing a service to its customers - that's why I specifically mentioned that the DfT should write it into the franchise agreements. After all, a large percentage of normal timetabled services currently run at the expense of the taxpayer because they form part of the minimum service requirements of a franchise bid. A Boxing Day service should run on the same principle.

I would imagine (though I have no way of proving it), that if you offer the same as Chiltern, i.e. time plus double time, you'd have no problem getting 10% of the workforce signing up,

As for where does it stop? I guess it stope at the point your customers don't want it, which I'm pretty sure rules out any sort of Christmas Day service.

Hint: The DfT don't want it introduced...

 

[infobleep]

I'm not sure why you keep mentioning ATMs.



For me it's both although I think b is much less likely.



You don't see the difference between the emergency services running and the railways running? The emergency services need to be able to use roads, communication and electricity. As for airports, I've never flown on either Christmas Day or Boxing Day.

They don't need to be able to use a TV or radio though. I mean entertainment radio rather than communication one.

 

[infobleep]

That would be extreme, but it *could*, as it is in most other countries, simply become another standard public holiday, though perhaps without retail. Though I do like the idea of it being a *bit* different. Easter Sunday has a lot of retail etc closed, it could be like that.

The UK is unique in Europe in shutting down the way it does. In Germany, for example, it's the same as any other public holiday.

As for Boxing Day that *is* near enough the same as any other public holiday, so public transport really should match.

Do they still close shops on a Sunday in Germany?

 

[infobleep]

Hint: The DfT don't want it introduced...

Not according to the DtF from their spokesman. See the BBC News quote in the OP's opening post.

 

[221129]

Not according to the DtF from their spokesman. See the BBC News quote in the OP's opening post.

I was meaning widespread, if they did they would be putting it in the franchises as they come up, they also don't to pay for it.

 

[Bellbell]

They don't need to be able to use a TV or radio though. I mean entertainment radio rather than communication one.

I've no problem with commercial radio and TV being switched off over the two days myself, we didn't listen to the radio and only watched a dvd. From the listings i saw in the TV guide there wasn't anything to watch anyway.

 

[The Planner]

Which they would end up doing so, if we don't get Boxing day as free and TOCs get to claim Schedule 4 as part of a disruptive possession then either NR does less work, or pays up via the DfT/ORR as part of the determination.

 

[LAX54]

Do they still close shops on a Sunday in Germany?

They do indeed, as do Belgium, France and some in The Netherlands
Sunday is their day of rest, to be with the family, and generally 'take rest' and not be at work 24/7 like the UK, they dont have 24 hour shopping eitther, nut then nor does the USA either, it is mainly the UK that seem to need to work every day under the sun and more !

Most shops in Germany do not open until 10 am either

 

[II]

Hint: The DfT don't want it introduced...

I guess time will tell on that front. Pressure from the press and public might not meant they have much of a choice soon.

AIUI the new drivers contracts for Crossrail include Boxing Day working (at an enhanced rate). I appreciate that is more TfL than DfT but the more operators that run, the more likelihood of a tipping point being reached.

 

[Dave1987]

I guess time will tell on that front. Pressure from the press and public might not meant they have much of a choice soon.

AIUI the new drivers contracts for Crossrail include Boxing Day working (at an enhanced rate). I appreciate that is more TfL than DfT but the more operators that run, the more likelihood of a tipping point being reached.

Still doesn't get away from the fact that virtually all TOC staff are not compelled to work Boxing Day. So what you going to do? Prey there is enough volunteers or force it through?

 

[infobleep]

They do indeed, as do Belgium, France and some in The Netherlands
Sunday is their day of rest, to be with the family, and generally 'take rest' and not be at work 24/7 like the UK, they dont have 24 hour shopping eitther, nut then nor does the USA either, it is mainly the UK that seem to need to work every day under the sun and more !

Most shops in Germany do not open until 10 am either

Do the shops close later?