• Dear Guest, and welcome to RailUK Forums. Our non-railway discussion forums are currently restricted until members have five or more posts, and you will not be able to make a new thread or reply to an existing one in this section until you have made five or more posts elsewhere on the forum.

The case for and against the effectiveness of face coverings and the mandating of their use

Status
Not open for further replies.

Green tractor

Member
Joined
30 Aug 2019
Messages
215
Location
Lancaster
I am in favour of mandatory masks, for the time being yes, but I accept that they are no longer mandatory in England and I am not trying to change that.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

yorkie

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
6 Jun 2005
Messages
55,135
Location
Yorkshire
Has @yorkie ever maintained that he has any problem with seeing other people wearing masks as you claim below?
If I saw roughly the proportion of people who are immunocompromised (perhaps multiplied by a factor of about 5) wearing effective masks in an environment where masks were optional and with everyone else maskless that wouldn't bother me.

What does bother me is seeing clear evidence of people either virtue signalling, or victims of coercion, misleading information or simply being guilted into wearing them. And sadly I am seeing evidence of this in some settings, notably long distance trains and some shops.

I am in favour of mandatory masks, for the time being yes, but I accept that they are no longer mandatory in England and I am not trying to change that.
This is a rather contradictory stance.

Out of interest what type of masks do you wish to be mandated? Will standard flimsy masks do?
 

43066

On Moderation
Joined
24 Nov 2019
Messages
2,640
Location
London
I am in favour of mandatory masks, for the time being yes, but I accept that they are no longer mandatory in England and I am not trying to change that.

Why didn’t the government simply recommend effective FFP3 masks for the clinically vulnerable, and free choice for everyone else?

It seems to me that face coverings aren’t really about protection at all, but more about behavioural science and manipulation.
 

DustyBin

Established Member
Joined
20 Sep 2020
Messages
1,634
Location
First Class
I am in favour of mandatory masks, for the time being yes, but I accept that they are no longer mandatory in England and I am not trying to change that.

What is it that makes you favour mandatory masks, bearing in mind there is no evidence to support the efficacy of face coverings in a community setting?

I fully agree with @yorkie on this, the message should be "face masks are no longer required but you can protect yourself by wearing an FFP3". The actual message, i.e. "masks are no longer mandatory but are recommended and expected" was always going to cause further division; I honestly don't think Boris could have chosen worse wording. Of course, stoking division has been central to the government's pandemic response so this should come as no surprise, and suddenly educating the public as to the benefits of FFP3s would lead to too many awkward questions....
 

alex397

Member
Joined
6 Oct 2017
Messages
1,012
Location
UK
If you can't see how saying things won't return to normal would make people upset, then I think that's a fundamental problem. I am glad it turns out to be a misunderstanding though.
Yes, it certainly was a misunderstanding.
A lot of it is about perception and the worst incidents will be relatively isolated and not the norm.
Then why are you making it seem like these incidents are the norm then? Such as saying ‘infested’ with virtue signallers.
Which pubs were almost fully masked? I'd like to visit and see for myself as I find this hard to believe.
Every pub I visited in Scotland, from Edinburgh, Aberdeen to Inverness. Ranging from traditional pubs to craft beer places. Obviously, a bit different there considering it is still law.
It has also been the case when visiting pubs in London. Such as the Exmouth Arms in Clerkenwell, and Ye Olde Cheshire Cheese off Fleet Street.
In Liverpool, the Dead Crafty Beer Co.
In Canterbury, the Unicorn, the Foundry and Pegasus.
Other pubs I’ve been in have been almost completely maskless (and no, I didn’t find it a problem and didn’t judge those who didn’t wear one)
I suspect those others were a tiny minority.
You won’t know that for sure.
Is what OK exactly?
Sarcastic and aggressive remarks, and those which do not contribute to a healthy debate.
 

yorkie

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
6 Jun 2005
Messages
55,135
Location
Yorkshire
Yes, it certainly was a misunderstanding.

Then why are you making it seem like these incidents are the norm then? Such as saying ‘infested’ with virtue signallers.
Virtue signallers don't necessarily cause aggressive incidents. They are not one and the same thing.

Every pub I visited in Scotland, from Edinburgh, Aberdeen to Inverness. Ranging from traditional pubs to craft beer places. Obviously, a bit different there considering it is still law.
Ah so that's not been by choice then.

It has also been the case when visiting pubs in London. Such as the Exmouth Arms in Clerkenwell, and Ye Olde Cheshire Cheese off Fleet Street.
If anyone else is able to visit these pubs it would be interesting to see others observations (though it really belongs in the observations thread); next time I am in the area I will try to visit if I can to see for myself as I find it very hard to believe.

In Liverpool, the Dead Crafty Beer Co.
In Canterbury, the Unicorn, the Foundry and Pegasus.
Other pubs I’ve been in have been almost completely maskless (and no, I didn’t find it a problem and didn’t judge those who didn’t wear one)
I've been in plenty of pubs all over England lately and it's really not something I see since the lifting of the mandate.

But if people are wearing them to enter pubs that's not a sign that they are doing so because they need additional protection so it would make me wonder why they are doing it: are they virtue signalling or have they been mislead or do they feel pressured?

The idea that people think it's a good idea to enter a pub while wearing a flimsy mask and doing so voluntarily doesn't seem likely to me; at least not of they are well informed.

You won’t know that for sure.
The idea that there are more than a small number of people who are both well informed about the effectiveness of vaccines and who still don't want to return to normal life doesn't seem likely to me.

Sarcastic and aggressive remarks, and those which do not contribute to a healthy debate.
Unfortunately this is the new culture war and therefore it's inevitably going to be toxic. It's not okay but my point was that it's unfair to just blame those who are opposed to mandatory masks, when those who seek to mandate or coerce others into wearing masks are the root cause of this new culture war.
 

alex397

Member
Joined
6 Oct 2017
Messages
1,012
Location
UK
Virtue signallers don't necessarily cause aggressive incidents. They are not one and the same thing.
I’m not sure why you can’t see that the terminology you used is just like an overreactive tabloid.
Ah so that's not been by choice then.
No, but see my other examples.
If anyone else is able to visit these pubs it would be interesting to see others observations (though it really belongs in the observations thread); next time I am in the area I will try to visit if I can to see for myself as I find it very hard to believe.
So they can prove me wrong you mean? It would seem extraordinary to visit those places just to do that. But, go ahead if you want to.
Maybe it was just a co-incidence that so many people were wearing masks. Maybe if you went now, the levels would be less. And, like I said, many pubs have had most people without masks. Depends on the pub.
I've been in plenty of pubs all over England lately and it's really not something I see since the lifting of the mandate.
Like I said, depends on the pub.
But if people are wearing them to enter pubs that's not a sign that they are doing so because they need additional protection so it would make me wonder why they are doing it: are they virtue signalling or have they been mislead or do they feel pressured?
Here we go again with just assuming anyone in a mask is misled, a virtue signaller or been pressured into it. Why don’t you just say ‘stupid people’? Again, there is evidence on both sides of this argument which I have linked before.
The idea that people think it's a good idea to enter a pub while wearing a flimsy mask and doing so voluntarily doesn't seem likely to me; at least not of they are well informed.
Your opinion.
Unfortunately this is the new culture war and therefore it's inevitably going to be toxic. It's not okay but my point was that it's unfair to just blame those who are opposed to mandatory masks, when those who seek to mandate or coerce others into wearing masks are the root cause of this new culture war.
Unfortunately people who just dismiss anyone in a mask as a ‘virtue signaller’, ‘misled’ or ‘pressured’ are also not helping to stop the culture war.
 

Cdd89

Member
Joined
8 Jan 2017
Messages
706
I am in favour of mandatory masks, for the time being yes
So your comments along the lines of “why does it bother you that others wear masks” were in bad faith, since by your own admission it bothers you that people don’t.
 

Ted633

Member
Joined
15 Mar 2018
Messages
88
If anyone else is able to visit these pubs it would be interesting to see others observations (though it really belongs in the observations thread); next time I am in the area I will try to visit if I can to see for myself as I find it very hard to believe.
Not those pubs exactly, but I've been on a pub crawl around Borough Market/Cannon Street/Blackfriars and a night out in Shoreditch over the past week and mask wearing was minimal even though most places were fairing busy. In Shoreditch, mask wearing was completely non-existent.
 

farleigh

Member
Joined
1 Nov 2016
Messages
997
If anyone else is able to visit these pubs it would be interesting to see others observations (though it really belongs in the observations thread); next time I am in the area I will try to visit if I can to see for myself as I find it very hard to believe.
In order to assist the forum I am happy to visit these pubs and carry out the research. Are expenses available??
 

jumble

Member
Joined
1 Jul 2011
Messages
737
If I saw roughly the proportion of people who are immunocompromised (perhaps multiplied by a factor of about 5) wearing effective masks in an environment where masks were optional and with everyone else maskless that wouldn't bother me.

What does bother me is seeing clear evidence of people either virtue signalling, or victims of coercion, misleading information or simply being guilted into wearing them. And sadly I am seeing evidence of this in some settings, notably long distance trains and some shops.


This is a rather contradictory stance.

Out of interest what type of masks do you wish to be mandated? Will standard flimsy masks do?
Thanks
That clarifies perfectly that you have no problem seeing people in masks who wear them by choice ( as indeed every right thinking person feels the same including me )
Your problem is people feeling obliged to wear them by being effectively bullied
Some posters have confused the two things
 

Mag_seven

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Global Moderator
Joined
1 Sep 2014
Messages
8,144
Location
here to eternity
I notice that despite still mandating masks in certain settings in Scotland, cases there are soaring. Hardly a ringing endorsement of their alleged effectiveness is it.
 

greyman42

Established Member
Joined
14 Aug 2017
Messages
2,853
I notice that despite still mandating masks in certain settings in Scotland, cases there are soaring. Hardly a ringing endorsement of their alleged effectiveness is it.
I think that comes under "an inconvenient truth".
 

Green tractor

Member
Joined
30 Aug 2019
Messages
215
Location
Lancaster
It's not like cyclists board trains, enter pubs etc while wearing them! It's another false equivalence.
So you only have a problem with people wearing masks in specific settings?
Has @yorkie ever maintained that he has any problem with seeing other people wearing masks who are quietly minding their own business as you claim below?


"The real question here is why you have such a problem seeing other people wearing face masks, its up to them, and doesn't affect you in the slightest."




https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...servations-and-compliance.220043/post-5249063 On my XC HST yesterday morning, it was disconcerting to see mask usage at over 50% in my coach and the Train Manager was making inappropriate announcements about "respect" which was most unwelcome, but when I went to get out at Wakefield, everyone in the vestibule (who also got off) was unmasked and most people at the station were unmasked too, so that made me feel more positive
This is a rather contradictory stance.

Out of interest what type of masks do you wish to be mandated? Will standard flimsy masks do?
Why is is contradictory to accept that The government hasn't done as I would of wished? If the candidate I vote for in a election doesn't get elected, I dont go on and on about it or get angry, I just accept it, and accept that I don't get a say in that result until it is time to vote again.

Could you please define what exactly a 'standard flimsy mask' is please.

Why didn’t the government simply recommend effective FFP3 masks for the clinically vulnerable, and free choice for everyone else?

It seems to me that face coverings aren’t really about protection at all, but more about behavioural science and manipulation.
There are a few problems with that. 1st if you tried to get hold of FFP3 masks last summer you would find they were in short supply (we use them at work.) encouraging the use of them makes the situation worse and would push the price up. Where do you draw the line on clinically vulnerable, can you define this? What about the other people in their households? Do these people have to buy them themselves of is the NHS/Government providing them (They are a few pounds each.) Do we all need to know that the chap sat in seat 5A on the bus is clinically vulnerable and is he happy with us knowing that?
Unfortunately this is the new culture war and therefore it's inevitably going to be toxic. It's not okay but my point was that it's unfair to just blame those who are opposed to mandatory masks, when those who seek to mandate or coerce others into wearing masks are the root cause of this new culture war.
There are guilty parties on both sides, meanwhile Most of us just accept the situation and get on with our lives. Trying to blame one side for stoking up the argument is just, well er stoking up the argument.
So your comments along the lines of “why does it bother you that others wear masks” were in bad faith, since by your own admission it bothers you that people don’t.
It doesn't bother me that people dont, I wish they did, but I respect that that is their right, and masks are no longer mandatory.


Incidentally while Yorkie doesn't like being told what to do, until recently his signiture line on this forum said 'get vaccinated' which is clearly an instruction like 'wear a mask.' His current signature line says ' It's time to get back to normal; those who seek to repress us must be defeated.' It is up to individuals when they want to get back to normal, and it is up to indviduals who they choose to pick a fight with
 
Last edited:

yorkie

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
6 Jun 2005
Messages
55,135
Location
Yorkshire
So you only have a problem with people wearing masks in specific settings?
I have a problem with the culture of the pro-mask activists of providing misleading information, shaming/coercing/forcing people into wearing masks.

If they were open and honest about the effectiveness of the vaccines and different types of masks, and if it was made clear that most people do not need the protection of an effective mask, and that anyone who feels they do need additional protection can wear a mask that does actually protect themselves if they obtain the right sort of mask, then we would be in a very different place.

Why is is contradictory to accept that The government hasn't done as I would of wished? If the candidate I vote for in a election doesn't get elected, I dont go on and on about it or get angry, I just accept it, and accept that I don't get a say in that result until it is time to vote again.
What exactly are you arguing for then?

Could you please define what exactly a 'standard flimsy mask' is please.
I refer you to the BBC article.

There are a few problems with that. 1st if you tried to get hold of FFP3 masks last summer you would find they were in short supply (we use them at work.) encouraging the use of them makes the situation worse and would push the price up. Where do you draw the line on clinically vulnerable, can you define this? What about the other people in their households?
I don't see much point in arguing about the past. The vaccines are highly effective for the vast majority of people including those who are deemed clinically vulnerable; the group they are the least effective in is the immunocompromised group, which is to be expected but even then they are pretty effective (see the vaccine updates thread where this was discussed a few weeks ago).

Do these people have to buy them themselves of is the NHS/Government providing them (They are a few pounds each.) Do we all need to know that the chap sat in seat 5A on the bus is clinically vulnerable and is he happy with us knowing that?
It is up to each person to make their own choice. Why does anyone need to know?

There are guilty parties on both sides, meanwhile Most of us just accept the situation and get on with our lives.
I'm prepared to accept the Government line of personal choice but if anyone believes masks should be mandated then I'm going to disagree with them and I am also going to disagree with any individual or organisation (such as LNER for example) who attempts to shame or coerce people into wearing them. I am not going to accept such behaviour.

Trying to blame one side for stoking up the argument is just, well er stoking up the argument.
I refer you to my previous posts on this matter.

It doesn't bother me that people dont, I wish they did, but I respect that that is their right, and masks are no longer mandatory.
Then why are you continuing to argue?

Incidentally while Yorkie doesn't like being told what to do, until recently his signiture line on this forum said 'get vaccinated' which is clearly an instruction like 'wear a mask.'
You do like making this personal and deflecting from the actual matter in hand don't you? My signature was worded to mean that getting vaccinated enables us to live normally; that was certainly supposed to be the case (and ultimately it will be). I've given my view multiple times on vaccinations and I have repeatedly said I strongly believe people should get vaccinated but it cannot be forced upon people. I've spoken out against vaccine passports for domestic purposes.

I know you are looking for another false equivalance and you are keen to try to make out that my view on whether people get vaccinated or not is similar to the view of those who seek to coerce people into wearing masks. That clearly is not the case. I believe in providing accurate information about the effectiveness of masks and vaccines. The vast majority of people would agree that getting vaccinated is a sensible choice and the benefits are absolutely clear for all to see; this is in stark contrast to the effectiveness of flimsy masks which is highly dubious. I do not doubt the efficacy of FFP3 masks.

I do wish you would stop trying to make false equivalent, personal arguments and to change the subject at every opportunity.

His current signature line says ' It's time to get back to normal; those who seek to repress us must be defeated.' It is up to individuals when they want to get back to normal, and it is up to indviduals who they choose to pick a fight with
Seriously, if you think anything but a small minortiy people don't want to get back to normal, that is just absurd. Those who wish to live in a perpetual state of abnormality but don't seek to stop the rest of us getting back to norrmal are free to do so if that's what they want, but those who seek to repress us will not win. The vast majority want normality and we are going to get it, whether you or anyone else wants it or not.

I’m not sure why you can’t see that the terminology you used is just like an overreactive tabloid.
Which terminology are you objecting to?




So they can prove me wrong you mean? It would seem extraordinary to visit those places just to do that. But, go ahead if you want to.
Maybe it was just a co-incidence that so many people were wearing masks. Maybe if you went now, the levels would be less. And, like I said, many pubs have had most people without masks. Depends on the pub.

Like I said, depends on the pub.
It does not match the experiences that everyone else I know of who has been to a pub lately, so I am highly sceptical, but I will look into seeing if I or others I know can verify these claims.
Here we go again with just assuming anyone in a mask is misled, a virtue signaller or been pressured into it. Why don’t you just say ‘stupid people’? Again, there is evidence on both sides of this argument which I have linked before
Your opinion.

Unfortunately people who just dismiss anyone in a mask as a ‘virtue signaller’, ‘misled’ or ‘pressured’ are also not helping to stop the culture war.
Why else would anyone wear a flimsy mask? If they were well informed about the effectiveness of masks and felt they needed additional protection, they'd wear an FFP2/3 mask, surely?

Not those pubs exactly, but I've been on a pub crawl around Borough Market/Cannon Street/Blackfriars and a night out in Shoreditch over the past week and mask wearing was minimal even though most places were fairing busy. In Shoreditch, mask wearing was completely non-existent.
Thanks; this is the experience of myself and everyone else who I've asked.

I notice that despite still mandating masks in certain settings in Scotland, cases there are soaring. Hardly a ringing endorsement of their alleged effectiveness is it.
Indeed. I expect the pro-mask apologists to ignore this though!
 
Last edited:

alex397

Member
Joined
6 Oct 2017
Messages
1,012
Location
UK
Which terminology are you objecting to?
You were saying this country is ‘infested’ with ‘virtue signallers’.
It does not match the experiences that everyone else I know of who has been to a pub lately, so I am highly sceptical, but I will look into seeing if I or others I know can verify these claims.
Clearly I must be lying with my experiences then. Yet again, let me make it clear that it has depended on the pub.
Why else would anyone wear a flimsy mask? If they were well informed about the effectiveness of masks and felt they needed additional protection, they'd wear an FFP2/3 mask, surely?
That’s what I do.
Thanks; this is the experience of myself and everyone else who I've asked.
Again, I’m clearly lying then.
 

Class320

On Moderation
Joined
18 May 2021
Messages
214
Location
Scotland
I fail to see how someone posting a photo of themselves wearing a mask can be considered "virtue signalling". It's no different that someone posting a photo of themselves wearing a hat.
 

Huntergreed

Established Member
Joined
16 Jan 2016
Messages
2,090
Location
Coach J Seat 39
I fail to see how someone posting a photo of themselves wearing a mask can be considered "virtue signalling". It's no different that someone posting a photo of themselves wearing a hat.
Because wearing a mask has been commonly touted as “respectful” and “safe”. People who deliberately chose to wear one (when not necessary) and equally post a photo of themselves wearing one online shows that they want people to recognise they are being “respectful” and “safe” (in other words, they’re virtue signallers)

If wearing a hat had been mandated for a year under the guise of being “safe and respectful” then your comparison would hold some credibility, but otherwise it’s a completely invalid comparison.
 

Class320

On Moderation
Joined
18 May 2021
Messages
214
Location
Scotland
Or it could just be a case of they've taken a photo of themselves with a mask on perhaps? I've taken selfies with my mask on plenty of times, not because I want to "virtue signal" but because I couldn't be bothered to take the thing off. Nothing more, nothing less.
 

Darandio

Established Member
Joined
24 Feb 2007
Messages
9,726
Location
Redcar
I fail to see how someone posting a photo of themselves wearing a mask can be considered "virtue signalling". It's no different that someone posting a photo of themselves wearing a hat.

Simply posting a photo of themselves wearing a mask without comment, maybe not. Being in an empty carriage, posting a photo and saying "Going to keep wearing my mask on public transport. Even when it’s just me on the tube." is very much virtue signalling by definition.

Or it could just be a case of they've taken a photo of themselves with a mask on perhaps? I've taken selfies with my mask on plenty of times, not because I want to "virtue signal" but because I couldn't be bothered to take the thing off. Nothing more, nothing less.

Ahh, i'm guessing you didn't see the accompanying comment that i've added above?
 

seagull

Member
Joined
28 Feb 2011
Messages
305
I fail to see how someone posting a photo of themselves wearing a mask can be considered "virtue signalling". It's no different that someone posting a photo of themselves wearing a hat.

A hat is an item of clothing. A mask is an item of concealment.

Someone taking a photo of themselves with a hat is like them taking a photo of themselves with new shoes or a new suit - perhaps a bit showy-offy but nothing more than that. Whereas a "mask" (actually, a mouth/face covering, usually) worn for a photo, begs the question: why? Why would anyone want to? It's the equivalent of taking a photo of an empty plate, rather than the ubiquitous food photos found on social media. Nobody in their right mind would, therefore people can be forgiven for thinking that it is purely a display of virtue signalling.
 

Cdd89

Member
Joined
8 Jan 2017
Messages
706
It doesn't bother me that people dont, I wish they did, but I respect that that is their right, and masks are no longer mandatory

I’m sorry but I don’t see how that response is consistent with:
I am in favour of mandatory masks, for the time being yes

The word “mandatory” means that people don’t have the right to choose.
 

AlterEgo

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Dec 2008
Messages
13,543
Location
No longer here
I’m sorry but I don’t see how that response is consistent with:


The word “mandatory” means that people don’t have the right to choose.
Indeed, respecting people's rights is generally concurrent with agreeing that they should have those rights.
 

102 fan

Member
Joined
14 May 2007
Messages
524
I notice that despite still mandating masks in certain settings in Scotland, cases there are soaring. Hardly a ringing endorsement of their alleged effectiveness is it.

Look at N Ireland where mask wearing is still mandatory. Our cases are allegedly the worst in the British Isles. A similarly empty ringing endorsement.
 

alex397

Member
Joined
6 Oct 2017
Messages
1,012
Location
UK
Indeed, respecting people's rights is generally concurrent with agreeing that they should have those rights.
You can respect someone’s wishes without agreeing with it.
There’s a difference between staying respectful by keeping something to yourself and confronting someone about it.
 

yorkie

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
6 Jun 2005
Messages
55,135
Location
Yorkshire
You can respect someone’s wishes without agreeing with it.
There’s a difference between staying respectful by keeping something to yourself and confronting someone about it.
What really bugs me is the messaging in some shops and on some trains, for example some Guards on LNER & others trying to coerce people into wearing them and implying people are being inconsiderate if they don't, not to mention spreading misinformation. While such behaviour continues, I will continue to make the case against their diktat.

No comment about high cases in NI & Scotland where masks are still mandatory? I am not surprised those who are pro-mask are very keen to avoid discussing the real-world evidence of the effectiveness of mask mandates as the infection rate data clearly does not support mandatory masks.
 

Cowley

Veteran Member
Associate Staff
General Discussion
Railtours & Preservation
Modelling & Games
Joined
15 Apr 2016
Messages
11,057
Location
Devon
OK. We’ve done the masks thing many times on here and for now it looks like everything that needs to be said has been said...
It’s time to close this thread for now. Go and take a break, maybe have a cup of tea (or something stronger) and if anything changes we’ll look at starting a new one.
Thanks everyone. :)
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top