The evolution of Cross Country

6Gman

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I think it was, and there was even an up evening service from Glasgow/Edinburgh which I used once which omitted Carlisle also.
(1M47 17:45 Glasgow-Birmingham with portion from Edinburgh at Carstairs passed Carlisle 19/16, Preston 20:24-20:27, Crewe 21:07)
(It was preceded by 1M52 17:30 Glasgow-Euston which called at Carlisle and Preston, but then not at Crewe, where I wanted to change trains I suspect, even though I wasn't living in Wilmslow then but rather Macclesfield.)
The train known at some period at least as The Midland Scot. Great train for a day trip to Scotland!

It was an odd sensation passing through Carlisle on the up service without stopping!
 
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Ken H

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The train known at some period at least as The Midland Scot. Great train for a day trip to Scotland!

It was an odd sensation passing through Carlisle on the up service without stopping!
through Citadel Stn or the avoiding line? (Was the avoiding line passed for passenger trains)?
 

hexagon789

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Thank you for pointing this out and correcting me, that's much more sensible and even though I don't trust my memory I'm glad to know that my "I don't remember a Paddington-Glasgow service in 1976" memory was in fact correct this time!
It's easily done - the way the picture is taken very much makes it appear to be one piece.

The train known at some period at least as The Midland Scot. Great train for a day trip to Scotland!

It was an odd sensation passing through Carlisle on the up service without stopping!
That train existed at least since LMS days with that name.

The omission of the Carlisle call in one direction always struck me as odd.
 

jfollows

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through Citadel Stn or the avoiding line? (Was the avoiding line passed for passenger trains)?
Through the station; as you suggest the lines which avoided the station were goods lines, following electrification in 1974 at least, and couldn't be used by passenger trains. But you wouldn't have wanted to do that anyway because the route over the goods lines is festooned with 10mph speed restrictions (or, rather, was before they were abolished, which was after when I went non-stop through the station).

EDIT Interestingly, the 1977 sectional appendix says
10 MAXIMUM PERMISSIBLE SPEED FOR PASSENGER TRAINS
over the entire goods line (2m10ch in length) between Caldew Junction and Upperby Bridge Junction
which at least conveys a flavour that passenger trains might have been permitted over the "through goods lines" but even if they had been the speed limit would have been far too severe to think about using that route anyway - 2 miles and 10 chains at 10mph takes ..... 12 3/4 minutes I think!
 
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randyrippley

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Wonder what sort of service Warrington and Wigan had at that time? From what I can make out in 1981, there was an on-the-hour departure from Euston which alternated between North Wales and Preston (might have been Carlisle), the latter calling at Warrington and Wigan. But what about Warrington/Wigan to Birmingham... change at Crewe required?
It was Euston-Crewe-Warrington-Wigan-Preston-Lancaster-Oxenholme/Penrith (alternate)-Carlisle.
Southbound if you wanted Birmingham you usually changed at Crewe, though for a few years cross-platform changes were possible at Lancaster, later Preston into a couple of Scotland-Birmingham services. The Euston set overtook the 81 or 83 hauled XC set in the station. Northbound changes were at Crewe or Preston
 

nickw1

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A few years before you, but not that many, maybe around 1975, I made a similar mistake with the Stone-Hixon-Colwich direct route, and was wondering why we hadn't gone through Stafford on my first Manchester-London train trip .... perhaps summer 1975 to Paris with a school group for an exchange visit? After scratching my head and doing a bit of reading I worked it out in the end.

Indeed, I also wasn't aware of the existence of that either for a while longer, even by early 1984 I think I assumed all London-Manchesters would be routed via Stafford, running non-stop through the station (as I knew none, or very few, actually stopped at Stafford).

I'd seen various trains running non-stop through Stafford in late 1983 and 1984, but didn't know where they were going, so for all I knew they could have been London-Manchester via Stoke.

I'd guess I was aware of the Stafford-avoiding line by perhaps mid-1984.

Thank you for pointing this out and correcting me, that's much more sensible and even though I don't trust my memory I'm glad to know that my "I don't remember a Paddington-Glasgow service in 1976" memory was in fact correct this time!


Taking 1978-79 as an example, the up "express" departures from Warrington were (all calling at Crewe)
(WTT departure times, so usually advertised as departing one or two minute earlier)
1A13 07:31 Euston from Blackpool North
1A22 08:32 Euston from Carlisle
1A26 09:15 Euston from Carlisle
1A36 10:31 Euston from Blackpool North
1K22 11:28 Crewe from Carlisle (81-85 electric + VB stock)
1M25 11:35 Euston from Glasgow via Dumfries
1K31 13:09 Crewe from Barrow
1G08 13:34 SO Birmingham dated from Blackpool North
1A55 14:31 Euston from Blackpool North
1M34 15:10 Euston from Glasgow
1K32 16:14 Crewe from Preston
1A72 17:32 Euston from Blackpool North
1K33 18:14 Crewe from Preston
1M46 19:13 Euston from Glasgow
1K06 19:31 Crewe from Blackpool North
1M47 20:48 Birmingham from Glasgow (this one didn't stop at Carlisle still, Carstairs-Preston-Warrington-Crewe, so also omitted Wigan)

Basically the Euston-Glasgow and Birmingham-Glasgow/Edinburgh called at Preston and Carlisle only with intermediate stops from a mixture of services, all electrically hauled still though.

Thanks - interesting to see those Crewe terminators. That does vaguely ring a bell as it happens, I also vaguely remember main-line services to Barrow, perhaps even to/from London one year.

The train known at some period at least as The Midland Scot. Great train for a day trip to Scotland!

It was an odd sensation passing through Carlisle on the up service without stopping!

I think I remember one year, the 0805-ish Birmingham-Scotland northbound was the Midland Scot. I do remember, notably, this train called at Stafford (0834, IIRC) which was unusual for Scottish services, which rarely call at the station (though the 1986 Wessex Scot did) - but would be an appropriate stop for a train called the 'Midland Scot' !
 
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Senex

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Indeed, I also wasn't aware of the existence of that either for a while longer, even by early 1984 I think I assumed all London-Manchesters would be routed via Stafford, running non-stop through the station (as I knew none, or very few, actually stopped at Stafford).

I'd seen various trains running non-stop through Stafford in late 1983 and 1984, but didn't know where they were going, so for all I knew they could have been London-Manchester via Stoke.

I'd guess I was aware of the Stafford-avoiding line by perhaps mid-1984.
Your reply, and that of jfollows that you quote, raises in my mind the question of when we all got our first copy of the Ian Allan Pre-Grouping Atlas and discovered juat how extensive the network once was and what the possibilities of alternative routes were. For me it was about 1955, but I had already by then discovered a book of my grandfather's and dipped into it, the Railway Year Book 1903, which really caught my imagination.
 

nickw1

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Your reply, and that of jfollows that you quote, raises in my mind the question of when we all got our first copy of the Ian Allan Pre-Grouping Atlas and discovered juat how extensive the network once was and what the possibilities of alternative routes were. For me it was about 1955, but I had already by then discovered a book of my grandfather's and dipped into it, the Railway Year Book 1903, which really caught my imagination.

For me, for the current network (rather than historical) it was the 'Rail Atlas of Great Britain and Ireland' which I received as a Christmas present in 1984. Don't think it was Ian Allan - can't remember the publisher - but do remember it was green. I think I was aware of the Colwich-Stone line before I received this, though.

Notable things in that edition that I remember include the Broad Street line still showing, but being clearly marked as "PROPOSED FOR CLOSURE". An incorrect prediction however was the Settle and Carlisle being simlarly marked.

For historical networks I picked up a Southern Railway poster from the Mid Hants in summer 1985 and noting how extensive the network once was. All those closed 'Town' stations on the way to the southwest - Andover Town, Yeovil Town, Barnstaple Town and so on - was one thing that struck me, along with the fact that the South Western main line to Exeter had many, many more stations than existed in 1985. (Many of these survived as late as 1965, presumably into the DMU era, and can clearly be seen on the WR timetable on timetableworld.com).
 

jfollows

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Thanks - interesting to see those Crewe terminators. That does vaguely ring a bell as it happens, I also vaguely remember main-line services to Barrow, perhaps even to/from London one year.
In 1986 there were
1P79 18:05 Euston-Barrow (Rugby, Nuneaton, Stafford, Crewe, ....)
1A26 07:18 Barrow-Euston (...., Crewe, Nuneaton, Rugby)
 

billio

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The most bizarre cross country service I ever heard of was the Newcastle/Hull to Cardiff/Barry service that was routed on the Cheltenham and Banbury Direct railway. A service run by the GWR, Great Central and NER lasting until the demise of the CBD line in the fifties. Were there any similar cross-country services that ran on obscure branch lines ?
 

30907

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The most bizarre cross country service I ever heard of was the Newcastle/Hull to Cardiff/Barry service that was routed on the Cheltenham and Banbury Direct railway. A service run by the GWR, Great Central and NER lasting until the demise of the CBD line in the fifties. Were there any similar cross-country services that ran on obscure branch lines ?
Remarkably, over a short section of the same route (Cheltenham-Andoversford): the MSWJR ran expresses with through coaches from Midland Railway locations to Southampton. Not sure these survived grouping when the GW took over the route, though connections are still shown in the 1939 LMS timetable.
Other lesser through routes that come to mind:
the M&GN - it's not exactly obscure but did have one daily express.
Apart from that we're onto summer Saturdays:
Barnard Castle-Tebay (NE-Blackpool)
Pilmoor-Malton (NE/Scotland-Yorkshire Coast)
 

Fleetwood Boy

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Remarkably, over a short section of the same route (Cheltenham-Andoversford): the MSWJR ran expresses with through coaches from Midland Railway locations to Southampton. Not sure these survived grouping when the GW took over the route, though connections are still shown in the 1939 LMS timetable.
Other lesser through routes that come to mind:
the M&GN - it's not exactly obscure but did have one daily express.
Apart from that we're onto summer Saturdays:
Barnard Castle-Tebay (NE-Blackpool)
Pilmoor-Malton (NE/Scotland-Yorkshire Coast)
It’s interesting how few of these summer Saturday Only specials were timed to allow the same stock to be used in both directions, which can’t have helped when the beancounters got involved. Same with locos and crews of course,although some of that more complicated on longer runs.

it’s a stark contrast to how the express (road) coaches organised themselves with most of them scheduled to do a round trip in a day, therefore meaning afternoon departures in the homeward direction.
 

30907

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It’s interesting how few of these summer Saturday Only specials were timed to allow the same stock to be used in both directions, which can’t have helped when the beancounters got involved. Same with locos and crews of course,although some of that more complicated on longer runs.
Exactly the same is true of the main cross-country services of the era - and better utilisation of stock no doubt improved the economics, at the expense of holidaymaker convenience.
(OT as it's not cross country: all the East Devon resorts had Saturday afternoon through workings to Waterloo. The railway had no way of incentivising people to travel at less popular times, so I wonder how they loaded?)
it’s a stark contrast to how the express (road) coaches organised themselves with most of them scheduled to do a round trip in a day, therefore meaning afternoon departures in the homeward direction.
I suppose the coaches were competing on price (which relates to my OT comment), and on niche routes (e.g. I recall a school friend's mid-60s summer holiday travel being a coach from Grove Park or Catford to Torbay).
 

Ken H

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Exactly the same is true of the main cross-country services of the era - and better utilisation of stock no doubt improved the economics, at the expense of holidaymaker convenience.
(OT as it's not cross country: all the East Devon resorts had Saturday afternoon through workings to Waterloo. The railway had no way of incentivising people to travel at less popular times, so I wonder how they loaded?)

I suppose the coaches were competing on price (which relates to my OT comment), and on niche routes (e.g. I recall a school friend's mid-60s summer holiday travel being a coach from Grove Park or Catford to Torbay).
The summer road coach services from the industrial cities to coastal resorts was a huge operation. But the railway also operated summer saturday trains to Scarborough, Morecambe and Blackpool into the 90's. I remeber long trains of modernisation plan DMU's doing Leeds - Morecambe via Giggleswick. 8 coaches!
 

SouthDevonian

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I thought that was the basis for most XC services - not serving London, connecting places out-with London?
I recall there were a few XC services that served London - both Kensington Olympia and Paddington, including a Paddington to Hull via Reading & New St at one time but I can't remember when it ran.

There is a website that lists all the XC services that connected the North & Midlands with Kent & Sussex, mostly via KO, but I can't remember it at the moment.
 

30907

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I recall there were a few XC services that served London - both Kensington Olympia and Paddington, including a Paddington to Hull via Reading & New St at one time but I can't remember when it ran.
The Paddington ones were typically early and late workings on the Birmingham-Reading-SR route (stock to/from Old Oak Common?).
There is a website that lists all the XC services that connected the North & Midlands with Kent & Sussex, mostly via KO, but I can't remember it at the moment.
http://www.1s76.com/1S76 1979.htm
Probably already mentioned!
 

hexagon789

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I recall there were a few XC services that served London - both Kensington Olympia and Paddington, including a Paddington to Hull via Reading & New St at one time but I can't remember when it ran.

There is a website that lists all the XC services that connected the North & Midlands with Kent & Sussex, mostly via KO, but I can't remember it at the moment.
I should perhaps have said the origin of the network as we recognise it now.

I'm aware that there were services via Kensington Olympia and with the Paddington workings, I read an article somewhere on the launch of the Paddington-Glasgow/Edinburgh XC service in 1983, a working which lasted on and off into Virgin XC days.

I think the website you are thinking of will be 1S76, named after the headcode of a Brighton XC working and which is essential a potted history of the Brighton XC workings from introduction to demise.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Wellington to Crewe (the route first used when the Pines was diverted off the S and D) had closed, and connections between the two regions at Birmingham and Wolverhampton were still in the future (IIRC)
I think it was 1963/64 when the Pines Express was diverted via Reading.
I travelled on it once via Market Drayton, but as you say that line closed within a year and the Pines was further diverted via Shrewsbury.
It might not have been regional rivalry, as Rugby-Birmingham NS-Wolverhampton HL was being electrified at that time, with minimal services.
Even so, some services went from Wolves LL to Stafford via the freight connection to Bushbury.
It all ended in 1967 when the WCML was fully wired and services on the GW route were then severely curtailed.
 

SouthDevonian

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I think it was 1963/64 when the Pines Express was diverted via Reading.
I travelled on it once via Market Drayton, but as you say that line closed within a year and the Pines was further diverted via Shrewsbury.
It might not have been regional rivalry, as Rugby-Birmingham NS-Wolverhampton HL was being electrified at that time, with minimal services.
Even so, some services went from Wolves LL to Stafford via the freight connection to Bushbury.
It all ended in 1967 when the WCML was fully wired and services on the GW route were then severely curtailed.
The Pines was diverted from the Somerset & Dorset line to the Basingstoke/Reading line in September 1962. At the same date, the Cornishman was diverted from the Cheltenham Lansdown Jn - Stratford - Snow Hill - Wolv LL line to Cheltenham Lansdown Jn - Kings Norton - New St - Derby - Sheffield Mid.

In March 1967, the Bordesley spur from the ex-WR line from Leamington to Snow Hill line to the ex-Midland Camp Hill line was upgraded from freight only to passenger to enable passenger trains to access New St from the south instead of Snow Hill.
 

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