The future of ticketing: ITSO?

[infobleep]

The only advantages I can see are not needing to do encode exchanges and the spped of read at a barrier.

I got one because South Western Railway recommended it in an advert. Once I got it, I found I couldn't buy the ticket I wanted online. Only sesoan tickets.

You can buy tickets from the vending machine but they were advertising how to avoid the need to buy tickets at the statuon by using the ITSO.

As it turned out, some of the tickets I wanted couldn't be purchased at the station! The app itself was rubbish, with no bus point. So all in all, what's the point of ITSO? Haha

 

[david1212]

Why not just send the tickets to the email address and cut out the non eco friendly card?

Or indeed, their mobile device with an ITSO compliant wallet application

The whole point is to have a single passive card holding all travel tickets totally separate from bank cards and phones.

Look back to my original post on another thread.

 

[35B]

The whole point is to have a single passive card holding all travel tickets totally separate from bank cards and phones.

Look back to my original post on another thread.

I've just deleted my initial response as I realise that what you propose is not what you've written above. However, this traveller rather likes having a separation between various ticketing systems, so there is not and can not be confusion between simple PAYG type tickets like in Greater London, season ticket use, and the long distance tickets that I usually use. Leaving aside that it is rather helpful for me to use Contactless for London zonal travel, so my own travel is on my own card, and work travel on a corporate card, these use cases don't combine brilliantly for this traveller, so enforced merger into a single account would be more of a nuisance than a help.

 

[Llanigraham]

The whole point is to have a single passive card holding all travel tickets totally separate from bank cards and phones.

Look back to my original post on another thread.

If nothing else that isn't going to be possible with 4 different nations within the UK having different systems for their bus passes, even when they all are (allegedly) ITSO compliant.

 

[yorkie]

Putting the current situation aside it is far quicker to buy a ticket let alone a combination of split-fare tickets at a booking office than using any online system.

not true; splitting sites like Trainsplit sort it all out for you, issue one handy PDF file and let you pick a seat.

which ticket offices can complete with that?

ITSO isn't as good as e-tickets for long distance fares either

 

[Wallsendmag]

Everyone is aware that you can only have 5 products on the current ITSO cards ? somewhat limiting

 

[Bletchleyite]

Everyone is aware that you can only have 5 products on the current ITSO cards ? somewhat limiting

Not sure I'd want more than one, or maybe two if related, e.g. a Travelcard and BZ extension. Could get confused about which would be used.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Not sure I'd want more than one, or maybe two if related, e.g. a Travelcard and BZ extension. Could get confused about which would be used.

But if you have ticket splits along with a season you could quite easily hit 5

 

[yorkie]

But if you have ticket splits along with a season you could quite easily hit 5

Indeed

And for a long journey on XC, a journey like York to Bristol alone could require 5 tickets to be reasonable value (yes someone could argue that XC's through fare are too costly but the fares are what they are and that's a separate subject a different thread!)

 

[david1212]

Everyone is aware that you can only have 5 products on the current ITSO cards ? somewhat limiting

I wasn't until your post. Not somewhat but very limiting. Is a return one ticket or two like with paper / card tickets ?
This needs to be beyond what 99.5% of people would ever need, say 25 ?

not true; splitting sites like Trainsplit sort it all out for you, issue one handy PDF file and let you pick a seat.

which ticket offices can complete with that?

ITSO isn't as good as e-tickets for long distance fares either

May be if starting from scratch and wanting train specific rather than walk-on tickets but if you make the same journey regularly a non-starter ...

Online
( Presume computer is already on )
Load website page
Log in with user name then password
Enter journey
Confirm
Enter main payment card number
Enter start / expiry date
Enter CVC code
With recent requirements maybe two-step verification by card issuer
Confirmation of purchase.

Presuming phone is ticket log in to phone and whatever the system check tickets are present for gates and on train check.

Booking office
' Hello, a day return A to B, a day return B to C and a day return C to D please '
A few seconds later
' That will be £xx.xx please '
Insert payment card then type in pin code
Current system - handed 6 tickets plus receipt
With ITSO - present card, tickets loaded presumably in a few seconds then handed receipt.
' Thank you '

 

[yorkie]

I wasn't until your post. Not somewhat but very limiting. Is a return one ticket or two like with paper / card tickets ?
This needs to be beyond what 99.5% of people would ever need, say 25 ?



May be if starting from scratch and wanting train specific rather than walk-on tickets but if you make the same journey regularly a non-starter ...

Online
( Presume computer is already on )
Load website page
Log in with user name then password
Enter journey
Confirm
Enter main payment card number
Enter start / expiry date
Enter CVC code
With recent requirements maybe two-step verification by card issuer
Confirmation of purchase.

Presuming phone is ticket log in to phone and whatever the system check tickets are present for gates and on train check.

Booking office
' Hello, a day return A to B, a day return B to C and a day return C to D please '
A few seconds later
' That will be £xx.xx please '
Insert payment card then type in pin code
Current system - handed 6 tickets plus receipt
With ITSO - present card, tickets loaded presumably in a few seconds then handed receipt.
' Thank you '

Comparing website purchasing to ticket office purchasing is a different matter for another thread.

With ITSO there is an extra step of loading tickets onto a card; with e-tickets the customer doesn't have to do that.

Another potential advantage of e-tickets is that your itinerary can be displayed as part of the ticket

And the 5 ticket limit means you need to do a but of forward thinking when planning journeys in advance as you would have a problem if you loaded them on too early.

ITSO had its place for PAYG urban ticketing in smaller geographical areas but can't ever be a national solution

 

[crablab]

The 5 ticket restriction will be due to the type of chip used in the cards. Get a chip with more EEPROM, store more tickets

Or, load tickets onto an ITSO compliant wallet application on your phone.

but can't ever be a national solution

The whole advantage of ITSO is that it's an international specification and across different modes of transport. That's why it's found uses in areas where you can buy tickets that permit multiple modes of transport, and across different operators.

Again, ITSO is just the specification for the protocol. It allows a wide range of use cases on multiple modes of transport, which e-tickets were never designed to and probably never will support. Plus, the specification is open - so anyone can understand how it works and design and build things to interface with the cards!

Could someone please link me to the e-ticket specification? And that's the first really big issue here...

 

[alistairlees]

The 5 ticket restriction will be due to the type of chip used in the cards. Get a chip with more EEPROM, store more tickets

Or, load tickets onto an ITSO compliant wallet application on your phone.



The whole advantage of ITSO is that it's an international specification and across different modes of transport. That's why it's found uses in areas where you can buy tickets that permit multiple modes of transport, and across different operators.

Again, ITSO is just the specification for the protocol. It allows a wide range of use cases on multiple modes of transport, which e-tickets were never designed to and probably never will support. Plus, the specification is open - so anyone can understand how it works and design and build things to interface with the cards!

Could someone please link me to the e-ticket specification? And that's the first really big issue here...

ITSO has cost several hundred million £ to implement on UK Rail, and it still doesn't work well for many things, like Advance tickets and reservations. eTickets cost almost nothing to create and rollout, and the only expense has been hand held readers and fitting gatelines with barcode readers. Which, whilst not cheap, has been way cheaper than ITSO and is in any case being paid for by retailers. Oh, and customers love them and uptake is excellent. Oh, and it was rolled out in less than a year from concept to three TOCs being live with it.

ITSO is a UK specification. Is it in use outside the UK?

 

[island]

I wasn't until your post. Not somewhat but very limiting. Is a return one ticket or two like with paper / card tickets ?
This needs to be beyond what 99.5% of people would ever need, say 25 ?

A return ticket is one ticket.

 

[Wallsendmag]

A return ticket is one ticket.

Not on LNER it isn't (well not always)

 

[scosutsut]

Sorry if this is covered up thread but I didn't see it. For me the Achilles heel of the ITSO system, certainly in ScotRail territory is the speed (or distinct lack thereof) in which a purchased ticket can be loaded to the card.

Had the ridiculous situation of having to pay twice because a ticket bought first thing in the morning hasn't loaded two hours later and guard says tough!

Call it what you want, but that is NOT a 2020 technical solution. Fix that and I'm listening.

 

[david1212]

ITSO has cost several hundred million £ to implement on UK Rail, and it still doesn't work well for many things, like Advance tickets and reservations. eTickets cost almost nothing to create and rollout, and the only expense has been hand held readers and fitting gatelines with barcode readers. Which, whilst not cheap, has been way cheaper than ITSO and is in any case being paid for by retailers. Oh, and customers love them and uptake is excellent. Oh, and it was rolled out in less than a year from concept to three TOCs being live with it.

ITSO is a UK specification. Is it in use outside the UK?

So all these readers are not both optical for barcode / QR code and ITSO contactless ?

Sorry if this is covered up thread but I didn't see it. For me the Achilles heel of the ITSO system, certainly in ScotRail territory is the speed (or distinct lack thereof) in which a purchased ticket can be loaded to the card.

Had the ridiculous situation of having to pay twice because a ticket bought first thing in the morning hasn't loaded two hours later and guard says tough!

Call it what you want, but that is NOT a 2020 technical solution. Fix that and I'm listening.

Interesting ..... was the original purchase at a booking office, a station ticket machine or online ? I've not followed / studied the system in detail but presumed that for the first two the ticket is loaded onto the ITSO card at the point of purchase while for the third the card has to be presented to a reader to load the ticket(s). For stations without barriers logically the same reader as used to record the start of the journey. If the tickets are not available to load within at most 5 minutes that certainly is an fundamental problem.

 

[alistairlees]

So all these readers are not both optical for barcode / QR code and ITSO contactless ?




Interesting ..... was the original purchase at a booking office, a station ticket machine or online ? I've not followed / studied the system in detail but presumed that for the first two the ticket is loaded onto the ITSO card at the point of purchase while for the third the card has to be presented to a reader to load the ticket(s). For stations without barriers logically the same reader as used to record the start of the journey. If the tickets are not available to load within at most 5 minutes that certainly is an fundamental problem.

This is an online problem. Also, you have to collect from your specified station.

 

[CyrusWuff]

So all these readers are not both optical for barcode / QR code and ITSO contactless ?

At least on Cubic gates, barcode scanners are a separate module that attaches to the gate pedestals - but which is incompatible with older gates. It goes without saying that this costs money, and the DfT are unlikely to authorise TOCs to roll out new scanners whilst the ERMAs remain in place.

Interesting ..... was the original purchase at a booking office, a station ticket machine or online ? I've not followed / studied the system in detail but presumed that for the first two the ticket is loaded onto the ITSO card at the point of purchase while for the third the card has to be presented to a reader to load the ticket(s). For stations without barriers logically the same reader as used to record the start of the journey. If the tickets are not available to load within at most 5 minutes that certainly is an fundamental problem.

As gatelines/validators aren't permanently online, there's a delay in polling for updates. Originally this was only undertaken overnight, but is now every two hours or so, though TfL have got it down to 30 minutes for Oyster top ups - but then they only have to worry about 270 stations, rather than nearly 2600 (though, of course, not all NR stations have ITSO readers).

There are three main workarounds for this, providing you've got a Smartcard issued by a TOC that uses the Rail Delivery Group "Central Back Office" system for ITSO fulfilment:

• Go to a TVM that has ITSO functionality (such as the Flowbird ones used by Chiltern and Northern), choose the Smartcard option from the home screen and put your card in the reader.
• Use a mobile app that supports loading tickets onto a Smartcard (such as the Chiltern and Greater Anglia Android apps).
• Go to a Ticket Office that can retail ITSO products and ask them to download it.

All of those options should work as soon as the transaction has been processed.

 

[scosutsut]

Interesting ..... was the original purchase at a booking office, a station ticket machine or online ? I've not followed / studied the system in detail but presumed that for the first two the ticket is loaded onto the ITSO card at the point of purchase while for the third the card has to be presented to a reader to load the ticket(s). For stations without barriers logically the same reader as used to record the start of the journey. If the tickets are not available to load within at most 5 minutes that certainly is an fundamental problem.

Online, which makes it more inexcusable in my eyes.

Also, you have to collect from your specified station.

Interestingly, ScotRail customer service had said otherwise - I'm not saying they are right, and you are wrong - just that they have insisted on several occasions that where you collect is irrelevant.

There are three main workarounds for this, providing you've got a Smartcard issued by a TOC that uses the Rail Delivery Group "Central Back Office" system for ITSO fulfilment:

• Go to a TVM that has ITSO functionality (such as the Flowbird ones used by Chiltern and Northern), choose the Smartcard option from the home screen and put your card in the reader.
• Use a mobile app that supports loading tickets onto a Smartcard (such as the Chiltern and Greater Anglia Android apps).
• Go to a Ticket Office that can retail ITSO products and ask them to download it.

All of those options should work as soon as the transaction has been processed.

Sadly in my experience...

• Only one TVM on my station and you can't get near it, well couldn't pre-COVID, at rush hour to do this unless you turned up about 15 minutes early.
• Doesn't work on ScotRail app, same 2+ hour applies
• Unstaffed station so no option
  
  This is why I find the current system not fit for purpose, I can buy a ticket on an app which can collect tickets, yet if I'm travelling within 2 hours there is a decent chance I won't have been able to collect it. I can't see from any technical standpoint why this is anything except completely barmy!
  
  Separately, I get the readers only poll every two hours but in 2020 this smacks of being a horrifically short sighted design decision that difficult or not needs to be resolved for the system to match at least this customer's expectation. The fact they can go online at all means this is not insurmountable, you just need to beef up the system they are connecting to deal with live look up rather than a periodic check in. Probably via the old adage of "throw hardware at a software problem"

 

[Wallsendmag]

There are two way to collect an ITSO ticket via an ISAM equipped device which can take up to two hours and you can only collect from the station specified or by a Part 11 device which you can collect anywhere within around 5 minutes. The majority of gates and TVMs are ISAM based. Compicating this is the fact that ScotRail have their own back office system (HOPS) which isn't connected to the RDG HOPS so if you buy from a TOC other than ScotRail you can't collect at a ScotRail gate/TVM and vice versa.

 

[Haywain]

ScotRail have their own back office system (HOPS) which isn't connected to the RDG HOPS so if you buy from a TOC other than ScotRail you can't collect at a ScotRail gate/TVM and vice versa.

A joined up industry. Wonderful!

 

[scosutsut]

There are two way to collect an ITSO ticket via an ISAM equipped device which can take up to two hours and you can only collect from the station specified or by a Part 11 device which you can collect anywhere within around 5 minutes. The majority of gates and TVMs are ISAM based. Compicating this is the fact that ScotRail have their own back office system (HOPS) which isn't connected to the RDG HOPS so if you buy from a TOC other than ScotRail you can't collect at a ScotRail gate/TVM and vice versa.

Sorry what does ISAM stand for? And Part 11 device? I assume the latter is a smartphone/app combo?

A joined up industry. Wonderful!

Isn't it just. You'd think they don't want to succeed at times!

 

[Wallsendmag]

Basically two different ways to connect to the back office. TVMs and TIS can connect via part 11 so no not a mobile device/app

 

[Argyle 1980]

I've often asked Southeastern why they are dead against Etickets and the generic answer is always the same, about how The Key is the best paperless ticketing option going and how they embrace it blah blah and there's no need for another paperless option.
The Key may be beneficial for season tickets, but it's really unsuitable for most other tickets.
I've both a Key and a GWR touch and neither allow me to buy a ticket from my local station in Cornwall (which has no machine) to any station in Kent, a journey i do fairly regularly and often at short notice and when travelling the next day, then there's absolutely no ticketing options available as Southeastern tickets are barred by GWRs onboard machines and obviously Etickets aren't available either. I put this scenario to Southeastern and they kept spouting the same generic rhetoric about the Key.
Even in instances where Key tickets are available, they only seem to make the most expensive anytime tickets available. I tried it one morning from Folkestone to Durrington on Sea and tapped the Key card and the only fare that come up was an anytime return via any permitted route, after I justvtyped in the journey without tapping the key and the fare dropped from £48 down to £15.
Enough said.

 

[island]

Cross-London tickets don't work well with paper roll tickets or e-tickets.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Cross-London tickets don't work well with paper roll tickets or e-tickets.

They don't work full stop and should not be enabled.

 

[MikeWh]

They don't work full stop and should not be enabled.

So they don't work when using Thameslink?

 

[Wallsendmag]

So they don't work when using Thameslink?

No GTR have very few gates with barcode readers

 

[SickyNicky]

No GTR have very few gates with barcode readers

LNER will happily sell me an eticket for Brighton to Luton, a journey which can be wholly on Thameslink and a ticket which (should) have a Maltese cross.