The impact of the new EMR timetable on journeys from Corby, Kettering, Wellingborough to London

[johnw]

Moderator note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/emr-class-360s.205226

The biggest loser in this is Wellingborough. We will loose a frequent peak time service to a half hourly one, northbound services - unless one wants to visit Corby, service in First Class and comfortable inter city trains. We will get a slower service having to endure a stops at both Lutons, unrefurbished stock - with no date of it happening, still at inter city fares. In some ways, even as an advocate of electrification I wish it hadn’t happened.

Living outside of Wellingborough it will be quicker for me to drive to Leicester and much cheaper to drive to Bedford and catch a train to London from there.

 

[spotify95]

The biggest loser in this is Wellingborough. We will loose a frequent peak time service to a half hourly one, northbound services - unless one wants to visit Corby, service in First Class and comfortable inter city trains. We will get a slower service having to endure a stops at both Lutons, unrefurbished stock - with no date of it happening, still at inter city fares. In some ways, even as an advocate of electrification I wish it hadn’t happened.

Living outside of Wellingborough it will be quicker for me to drive to Leicester and much cheaper to drive to Bedford and catch a train to London from there.

If you're on the northern side of Wellingborough, it would be worthwhile driving up to Kettering and taking the train from Kettering north.

My home station is also Wellingborough and from May, I see no reason to use the train from Wellingborough itself, except for the two trains (approx 6:40 and 7:50) that will call at Wellingborough going north (as well as whatever the equivalent evening trains are from the North, going South).

If you're going north:

• To Kettering: you could take the train, but given how close Kettering is, it would be more worthwhile just driving
• To Market Harborough/Leicester: The addition of an interchange makes it more worthwhile to drive - especially if timing of connections is a concern and/or multiple people travelling in the same household
• Long distance journeys (Nottingham/Sheffield etc): cost and complexity not worth it

If you're going south:

• To Bedford: seems OK
• To Lutons: may be cheaper (and easier/less hassle) just taking the car - or drive to Bedford and get the cheaper Thameslink services
• To London: either go up to Kettering and get the fast Intercity service or drive to Bedford and get the cheaper Thameslink services

I know of someone who routinely commutes between Wellingborough and Market Harborough. I can see them driving...

 

[westcoaster]

If you're on the northern side of Wellingborough, it would be worthwhile driving up to Kettering and taking the train from Kettering north.

My home station is also Wellingborough and from May, I see no reason to use the train from Wellingborough itself, except for the two trains (approx 6:40 and 7:50) that will call at Wellingborough going north (as well as whatever the equivalent evening trains are from the North, going South).

If you're going north:

• To Kettering: you could take the train, but given how close Kettering is, it would be more worthwhile just driving
• To Market Harborough/Leicester: The addition of an interchange makes it more worthwhile to drive - especially if timing of connections is a concern and/or multiple people travelling in the same household
• Long distance journeys (Nottingham/Sheffield etc): cost and complexity not worth it

If you're going south:

• To Bedford: seems OK
• To Lutons: may be cheaper (and easier/less hassle) just taking the car - or drive to Bedford and get the cheaper Thameslink services
• To London: either go up to Kettering and get the fast Intercity service or drive to Bedford and get the cheaper Thameslink services

I know of someone who routinely commutes between Wellingborough and Market Harborough. I can see them driving...

One slight bit of good news is that split ticketing to london will be easier as all trains will call at bedford.
Trains will also be evenly spaced seems to be two counter peak flow intercity services, and also a new service mid day to Melton mowbray and return.

 

[apinnard]

What are the late evening departures like Weekdays and Saturdays on the new electrics services?

Before covid I spent many weekends in London (From Kettering) and my biggest issue was the stupidly early “last train” out of St Pancras.

I am hoping for later trains back from London to Kettering to save me from having to drive to Huntingdon or Northampton to catch the train, just so I can enjoy my social time in the City with friends.

 

[Aictos]

What are the late evening departures like Weekdays and Saturdays on the new electrics services?

Before covid I spent many weekends in London (From Kettering) and my biggest issue was the stupidly early “last train” out of St Pancras.

I am hoping for later trains back from London to Kettering to save me from having to drive to Huntingdon or Northampton to catch the train, just so I can enjoy my social time in the City with friends.

On a weekday, the last train to Kettering from London is the 23:55 to Corby while the last train on a Saturday is the 23:55 to Kettering both are EMR Electrics services so I think that's reasonable.

 

[Bald Rick]

What are the late evening departures like Weekdays and Saturdays on the new electrics services?

Before covid I spent many weekends in London (From Kettering) and my biggest issue was the stupidly early “last train” out of St Pancras.

I am hoping for later trains back from London to Kettering to save me from having to drive to Huntingdon or Northampton to catch the train, just so I can enjoy my social time in the City with friends.

The last Kettering train has been around 0015 on weekday for as long as I can remember. That’s really rather late, and not ‘stupidly early’.

Saturday the last train moves to 2335; the current 2220 is driven by the need for the one standard maintenance opportunity each week on the two track section north of Kettering IIRC.

 

[Hairy Bear]

On a weekday, the last train to Kettering from London is the 23:55 to Corby while the last train on a Saturday is the 23:55 to Kettering both are EMR Electrics services so I think that's reasonable.

No the 00.15 will continue to stop at Kettering as before.

 

[Helvellyn]

The biggest loser in this is Wellingborough. We will loose a frequent peak time service to a half hourly one, northbound services - unless one wants to visit Corby, service in First Class and comfortable inter city trains. We will get a slower service having to endure a stops at both Lutons, unrefurbished stock - with no date of it happening, still at inter city fares. In some ways, even as an advocate of electrification I wish it hadn’t happened.

Living outside of Wellingborough it will be quicker for me to drive to Leicester and much cheaper to drive to Bedford and catch a train to London from there.

The 360s also won't have metallic film in the carriage windows, which block out 3G/4G/Wi-Fi/FM/DAB signals - so in a way, a 360 is better than a 222 even before the refurbishment


If you're on the northern side of Wellingborough, it would be worthwhile driving up to Kettering and taking the train from Kettering north.

My home station is also Wellingborough and from May, I see no reason to use the train from Wellingborough itself, except for the two trains (approx 6:40 and 7:50) that will call at Wellingborough going north (as well as whatever the equivalent evening trains are from the North, going South).

If you're going north:

• To Kettering: you could take the train, but given how close Kettering is, it would be more worthwhile just driving
• To Market Harborough/Leicester: The addition of an interchange makes it more worthwhile to drive - especially if timing of connections is a concern and/or multiple people travelling in the same household
• Long distance journeys (Nottingham/Sheffield etc): cost and complexity not worth it

If you're going south:

• To Bedford: seems OK
• To Lutons: may be cheaper (and easier/less hassle) just taking the car - or drive to Bedford and get the cheaper Thameslink services
• To London: either go up to Kettering and get the fast Intercity service or drive to Bedford and get the cheaper Thameslink services

I know of someone who routinely commutes between Wellingborough and Market Harborough. I can see them driving...

Seems a few of us use Wellingborough!

Off-peak the half-houly service to/from London is better then the two trains per hour close together. Catering on the Corby services is also hit and miss, even pre-COVID.

In the peaks we are supposedly trading capacity for slightly fewer trains.

But I totally agree Northbound is a mess. Traffic might be low, but will be even less so with the Kettering changes (plus Leicester on top to get to Derby/Sheffield). This also impacts staff trying to get to/from Derby who wouldn't show up in ticket flows due to travelling on passes!

I know the Developers of Stanton Cross aren't impressed by the changes either. A 3,000 plus home and business development immediately East of the station was partly sold on the rail links North and South, and includes development of the station (700 space multi-storey car park and new entrance on the Slow Lines side). I doubt the new bus links will materialise either!

 

[Aictos]

No the 00.15 will continue to stop at Kettering as before.

I'm going by RTT which says otherwise, apologies if I'm wrong but I'm only going by data on that site.

 

[Ianno87]

But I totally agree Northbound is a mess. Traffic might be low, but will be even less so with the Kettering changes (plus Leicester on top to get to Derby/Sheffield).

Although the "winners" (e.g. 4tph serving Kettering) are likely to outweigh the "losers" in overall revenue terms.

This also impacts staff trying to get to/from Derby who wouldn't show up in ticket flows due to travelling on passes!

Service patterns should never get designed around such things, unless it is critical to a TOCs operation (e.g. an early/late "staff train")

I know the Developers of Stanton Cross aren't impressed by the changes either. A 3,000 plus home and business development immediately East of the station was partly sold on the rail links North and South, and includes development of the station (700 space multi-storey car park and new entrance on the Slow Lines side). I doubt the new bus links will materialise either!

Although most people would still be satisfied with the London connection.

 

[westcoaster]

I'm going by RTT which says otherwise, apologies if I'm wrong but I'm only going by data on that site.

Some trains have disappeared like the first southbound corby from RTT and National rail app, but still shows on open train times.

 

[Gathursty]

As Wellingborough is on the EMR electric route from Corby, then provided there are reasonable AND regular connections at Kettering going North then I don't see the problem.

By reasonable AND regular, I mean a connection of no more than 20 minutes at most times of the day. I think the MML has a bad reputation for only having crack expresses missing too many stations out after the peaks. People in the smaller towns need to travel too.

 

[swt_passenger]

As Wellingborough is on the EMR electric route from Corby, then provided there are reasonable AND regular connections at Kettering going North then I don't see the problem.

By reasonable AND regular, I mean a connection of no more than 20 minutes at most times of the day. I think the MML has a bad reputation for only having crack expresses missing too many stations out after the peaks. People in the smaller towns need to travel too.

I’m pretty sure what you’re asking for is exactly what was described in the EMR May 2021 consultation response that was discussed a few weeks ago in the main May 2021 timetable thread:

Since the publication of the consultation, we have been working with Network Rail and other train operators to improve this issue. As a result, there is now only one service with an extended connection at Kettering, the 07:50 departure from St Pancras arrives at Kettering at 08:51. The next EMR Intercity departure is the 09:24 to Nottingham.
The average connection is eight minutes northbound (with a minimum of five minutes) and 16-18 minutes southbound.

https://www.eastmidlandsrailway.co.uk/sites/default/files/assets/download_ct/20210205/n_i9XmBXOR0fcjO1G0Dq3EgB1L4jbxKJtxUTIOwnjEc/emr_may_2021_results_document_rgb_new_final.pdf

 

[Gellico]

Had the electrification reached, at very least Leicester, I feel that the 360 all shacks services would of has somewhere reasonably to terminate and given how all EMR services stop there it is the obvious choice for Northbound interchange. As much as I am for complete electrification and can understand cutting short, the point of making sleepy Market H'boro the end of it is just a waste and limits what could of been a genuinely very useful 2tph all stations LEI to STP service and a proper split between Intercity services with no need to stop between LEI & STP, at least off peak.
12 car 360s would be very useful for Leicester when the Rugby is on.
Also say if it were hypothetically announced tomorrow that electrification were to be extended to Leicester would EMR have enough 360s to run an extended 2tph service from Kettering further North, say if the units were reduced from 12 to 8 coach formations.

 

[edwin_m]

Had the electrification reached, at very least Leicester, I feel that the 360 all shacks services would of has somewhere reasonably to terminate and given how all EMR services stop there it is the obvious choice for Northbound interchange. As much as I am for complete electrification and can understand cutting short, the point of making sleepy Market H'boro the end of it is just a waste and limits what could of been a genuinely very useful 2tph all stations LEI to STP service and a proper split between Intercity services with no need to stop between LEI & STP, at least off peak.
12 car 360s would be very useful for Leicester when the Rugby is on.
Also say if it were hypothetically announced tomorrow that electrification were to be extended to Leicester would EMR have enough 360s to run an extended 2tph service from Kettering further North, say if the units were reduced from 12 to 8 coach formations.

Problem there is that the route carries 4 trains per hour via Leicester (in normal time) plus two to Corby in the new timetable. It's unlikely it could run any more due to capacity issues on Thameslink, so 2TPH London-Leicester would mean halving the service to Nottingham, Derby and Sheffield.

 

[Bald Rick]

Problem there is that the route carries 4 trains per hour via Leicester (in normal time) plus two to Corby in the new timetable. It's unlikely it could run any more due to capacity issues on Thameslink, so 2TPH London-Leicester would mean halving the service to Nottingham, Derby and Sheffield.

Or back to a Corby shuttle.

 

[Domh245]

Or back to a Corby shuttle.

Or portion!

 

[Gellico]

Or back to a Corby shuttle.

Or utilise the benefit of using EMUs and have the train split/join at Kettering so can have both?

 

[edwin_m]

Or utilise the benefit of using EMUs and have the train split/join at Kettering so can have both?

I suspect 6TPH on the two-track section north of Kettering would be pushing capacity beyond the limit too.

 

[Gellico]

I suspect 6TPH on the two-track section north of Kettering would be pushing capacity beyond the limit too.

If it were electrified however then at the very least all passenger services would be able to run closer together, plus with an extension of stoppers could you perhaps reduce Intercity services at Market Harborough and possibly Wellingborough down to 1tph or entirely remove stops all together outside of some peak trips?

 

[edwin_m]

If it were electrified however then at the very least all passenger services would be able to run closer together, plus with an extension of stoppers could you perhaps reduce Intercity services at Market Harborough and possibly Wellingborough down to 1tph or entirely remove stops all together outside of some peak trips?

Running the services closer together would be a matter of signalling rather than electrification, and there would also be some conflicts at Kettering with splitting and joining. If the trains going beyond Leicester were non-stop between there and London that would probably use more capacity, unless they were flighted in pairs for Sheffield and Nottingham, which would remove most of the benefit of the extra fast train frequency south of Leicester. There's also some freight on the route that would remain diesel hauled and needs a decent gap between passenger trains.

 

[A0wen]

Or utilise the benefit of using EMUs and have the train split/join at Kettering so can have both?

Except that kills journey times - when LM used to do split / joins at Northampton one portion from the north was sitting around for 10 mins or so waiting for the next one, add in the risk of a problem when joining the units and the staffing implications.

It introduces an unnecessary risk to the timetable.

Seems a few of us use Wellingborough!

Off-peak the half-houly service to/from London is better then the two trains per hour close together. Catering on the Corby services is also hit and miss, even pre-COVID.

In the peaks we are supposedly trading capacity for slightly fewer trains.

But I totally agree Northbound is a mess. Traffic might be low, but will be even less so with the Kettering changes (plus Leicester on top to get to Derby/Sheffield). This also impacts staff trying to get to/from Derby who wouldn't show up in ticket flows due to travelling on passes!

I know the Developers of Stanton Cross aren't impressed by the changes either. A 3,000 plus home and business development immediately East of the station was partly sold on the rail links North and South, and includes development of the station (700 space multi-storey car park and new entrance on the Slow Lines side). I doubt the new bus links will materialise either!

But you only needed (pre Covid) to stand on Wellingborough station between 7.30 and 8.30 am to see why the removal of northbound destinations *isn't* an issue.

Where the passengers boarding southbound services numbered into the hundreds you could count the northbound passengers using your fingers and toes - the only exception was school children who were only heading to Kettering.

The new timetable also tidies up the evening peak calling pattern from Luton (which is a major jobs hub) that was previously a complete mess with some trains stopping at Airport Parkway, some at Luton. It makes commuting from Wellingborough or Northampton to Luton viable for the first time I can recall (nearly 20 years) and avoids the M1 which is a nightmare south of MK.

 

[InTheEastMids]

the point of making sleepy Market H'boro the end of it is just a waste and limits what could of been a genuinely very useful 2tph all stations LEI to STP service and a proper split between Intercity services with no need to stop between LEI & STP, at least off peak.

The only reason the electrification is going to Harborough is so they've got somewhere to plug the trains in (Braybrooke).
Otherwise it'd have been Corby only. Corby will be properly inside London's commuter belt and (corrected for Covid), demand from Corby will grow because of this.

Leicester already has 2 non-stop services (~63 mins?) and 2 stoppers (~70 mins) from May.
I think this is a good service, with surprisingly small penalties for the stops

when LM used to do split / joins at Northampton one portion from the north was sitting around for 10 mins or so waiting for the next one, add in the risk of a problem when joining the units and the staffing implications.

It introduces an unnecessary risk to the timetable.



But you only needed (pre Covid) to stand on Wellingborough station between 7.30 and 8.30 am to see why the removal of northbound destinations *isn't* an issue.

Where the passengers boarding southbound services numbered into the hundreds you could count the northbound passengers using your fingers and toes - the only exception was school children who were only heading to Kettering.

The new timetable also tidies up the evening peak calling pattern from Luton (which is a major jobs hub) that was previously a complete mess with some trains stopping at Airport Parkway, some at Luton. It makes commuting from Wellingborough or Northampton to Luton viable for the first time I can recall (nearly 20 years) and avoids the M1 which is a nightmare south of MK.

Agree with all this; people seem to be targetting a relatively small set of benefits to justify some pretty significant infrastructure costs and timetabling complexity.

 

[Bald Rick]

Leicester already has 2 non-stop services (~63 mins?) and 2 stoppers (~70 mins) from May.
I think this is a good service, with surprisingly small penalties for the stops

62 / 69 for ‘clean’ paths (ie no pathing time), although that is fairly rare. Most will have a minute or two in to fit around the Thameslinks.

So the penalty for stopping is 7 minutes total, which will be 4 mins at Kettering (95mph non stop) and 3 mins for Market Harboro’ (85mph).

 

[Bikeman78]

What are the late evening departures like Weekdays and Saturdays on the new electrics services?

Before covid I spent many weekends in London (From Kettering) and my biggest issue was the stupidly early “last train” out of St Pancras.

I am hoping for later trains back from London to Kettering to save me from having to drive to Huntingdon or Northampton to catch the train, just so I can enjoy my social time in the City with friends.

There are places much closer to London with an earlier last train than that. The last Victoria to Horsham was at 2347 for 20 years or so; it's now 2335.

 

[Bod]

For those Bedfordians who have felt that EMR don't want their custom then this timetable reinforces it from the snippets I have seen. Every government bleat on about putting more people on public transport and taking them off the road but EMR don't seem to agree.

If you are up north and want to get home to Bedford via Derby or Nottingham on weekdays then prepare to fester. For example the 2011 from Nottingham requires a 45 minute rancid fester at Kettering so Bedford not reached until 2209.

How about a mouth watering one hour fester at Kettering? Just do the 2048 from Nottingham for that pleasure and arrive Bedford at 2304. The 2048 will be in London by the time the Bedford connection leaves Kettering.

It sounds like an appalling service for Bedfordians so anyone living in Bedford has to drive but if they don't drive then they have issues. The last bus from Kettering to Bedford is 1748 on weekdays. Would anyone here appreciate an hour fester to get home on a so called connection?

It would seem EMR don't want Bedford folk on their services at all never mind just between St Pancras and Bedford with their current peak Wellingborough buses by trying to put them off travelling north as well by making it difficult to get home.

The only alternative for non car owners is to do the West Coast or east coast routes to either Milton Keynes or St Neots for the X5 buses to Bedford on weekdays just to keep moving and avoid wasting time at Kettering.

 

[Bald Rick]

For those Bedfordians who have felt that EMR don't want their custom then this timetable reinforces it from the snippets I have seen. Every government bleat on about putting more people on public transport and taking them off the road but EMR don't seem to agree.

If you are up north and want to get home to Bedford via Derby or Nottingham on weekdays then prepare to fester. For example the 2011 from Nottingham requires a 45 minute rancid fester at Kettering so Bedford not reached until 2209.

How about a mouth watering one hour fester at Kettering? Just do the 2048 from Nottingham for that pleasure and arrive Bedford at 2304. The 2048 will be in London by the time the Bedford connection leaves Kettering.

It sounds like an appalling service for Bedfordians so anyone living in Bedford has to drive but if they don't drive then they have issues. The last bus from Kettering to Bedford is 1748 on weekdays. Would anyone here appreciate an hour fester to get home on a so called connection?

It would seem EMR don't want Bedford folk on their services at all never mind just between St Pancras and Bedford with their current peak Wellingborough buses by trying to put them off travelling north as well by making it difficult to get home.

The only alternative for non car owners is to do the West Coast or east coast routes to either Milton Keynes or St Neots for the X5 buses to Bedford on weekdays just to keep moving and avoid wasting time at Kettering.

That’s really quite a rant.

Of course what you could have written was:

“If you are up north and want to get home to Bedford via Derby or Nottingham on weekdays then the service is good through the majority of the day day, with two trains an hour and connections at Kettering of between 9-15 minutes; mostly 12-13. However, be aware that the last couple of services of the day have a longer wait”

“It sounds like a good service for Bedfordians, so anyone living in Bedford won’t need to drive unless they need to travel late in the evening and don’t want to have a longer wait at Kettering.”

“The only alternative for non car owners if you need to travel mid to late evening, and don’t want to wait that long, is to make sure you catch the the 1950 from Nottingham (which connects at Leicester out of the 1932 from Derby) as that has an 11 minute connection at Kettering to get you to Bedford by 2109”

 

[Bod]

Do you always condescend people? Typical response from someone not impacted. Slags off the affected people ignoring the issues and expecting people to be content with long festers.

If I am up in Lancashire and Yorkshire or
further north it is unlikely that I can make the 1950 so it will have ramifications.

Your post reminds me why I rarely post on social media with the sanctimonious response.

 

[Bald Rick]

Do you always condescend people?

Nope, only those who post things that aren’t true, for example suggesting that one small issue with the timetable makes the whole thing bad, when actually it’s an improvement.

As a regular user of the MML I am impacted. Mostly, my journeys will be improved. However when I need to stay in Nottingham or Derby later I’ll make sure I’m on the 1950.

 

[Bod]

You are selective in being blinkered as to what you want to see. It is no improvement for those in Luton and Bedford.

What is untrue about Bedford losing an hourly direct service to Leicester and Nottingham when the new timetable has you changing trains twice to get to the latter? Look at the new timetable and compare it with the current timetable. It is arrogant for you to say it is an improvement when it clearly isn't for those living in Bedfordshire.

I resent your implication that I am a liar. Who are you to judge other people and I won't put up with your personal snide remarks. Stick to the subject without being arrogant as though you know what is best for everyone.

Read what I said again about being much further north than Nottingham so it is not feasible to make the 1950 if coming back from the North East for example.

EMR could easily make the 2011 and 2048 services stop at Bedford and Luton without subjecting those passengers to 45 and 60 minutes festers for a connection late into the evening.

My family have worked on the old Midland Railway since 1910 and I am just as regular a traveller on the EMR today as you are but it looks like I will have to find alternative routes as clearly I inconvenience them by wanting their services to stop at Bedford.