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The Nicola and Alex Show

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JamesT

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*sigh*

I'm not going to disagree that there are certain parallels with Brexit. When the UK as a whole voted for Brexit, was there not a certain period of time before Article 50 was triggered? That period of time should have been used for a bit of reflection on the result, then there should have been a positive dialogue between all parties about how the outcome could be achieved. That didn't happen. It was "leave means leave"; all the stuff that we'd been promised about remaining in the single market and retaining freedom of movement went out the window. It's "hard Brexit" and bugger the lot of you if you disagree.

If Scotland does vote for independence it won't just happen overnight. It won't simply be a case of "Bye, then"; there will be a period of time for proper negotiation before the final details are agreed.

When you say discussion between the parties, do you mean between the UK and the EU, or internally to the UK?
The former was difficult as the stated position of the EU was that there could be no talks before Article 50 was triggered. They were also keen that it should be triggered as soon as possible to avoid the UK remaining a member into the next budget period and having to have another round of EU Parliamentary elections in the UK.

There’s no such formal process for Scottish independence, which is going to be far more complicated due to how much more integrated the UK is.
 
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eoff

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I agree with you that there should've been more positive dialogue after the Brexit referendum - but what makes you so sure the same problem won't happen if a future referendum produces a (narrow) pro-independence vote? Can you really be sure the SNP won't act in the same way that the pro-Brexit politicians did after 2016: Just say, 'Independence means Independence' and proceed to steamroll through whatever they want, ignoring any concerns of everyone in Scotland who didn't vote for independence?
I suppose they could be much more explicit to avoid any interpretation of what was meant by independence but they will want to keep any discussion at the highest level in a vote, "should Scotland be an independent country". I can't imagien they would want to outline any real detail, especially in any referendem for example along the lines of...

Do you agree that Scotland should be independent, have XXX as head of state, have its own currency, rejoin the EU, have border controls in order to have an independent trade and immigration policy, have its own tax system, have its own civil service, raise funds to pay for its share of UK debt, require large financial institutions to move to England...
 
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317 forever

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Scottish Conservative and Unionist actually :E

Mainly, but not exclusively dinosaurs like me.

Seriously there is still a strong underlying support, these days mainly to be found in Rural Areas and small townships.

Look at The Borders, Pure Blue from End to End if you want a clue - strangely it mirrors England and most of Wales in that respect.

What is it about these Border Dwellers !!
If IndyRef2 were held tomorrow, I reckon the Borders constituencies would vote No and either of the following 2 outcomes would prevail.

1. The rest of Scotland would narrowly vote Yes but the Borders would swing it into a collective No result. Thus the Borders would keep the rest of Scotland in the UK against its will.

2. The final result would be a narrow Yes. Thus the Borders would be dragged out of the UK against their will.

Isn't one of reasons for wanting Scottish independence so that Scotland can rejoin the EU.

"Control your own destiny" and membership of the EU are incompatible, no matter how much Nicola Sturgeon may try and gloss over this fact.
Even in the 90s they were talking about "independence in Europe" which is a contradiction in terms. It would just be an alternative partnership, but with Brussels instead of London.
 
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Butts

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If IndyRef2 were held tomorrow, I reckon the Borders constituencies would vote No and either of the following 2 outcomes would prevail.

1. The rest of Scotland would narrowly vote Yes but the Borders would swing it into a collective No result. Thus the Borders would keep the rest of Scotland in the UK against its will.

2. The final result would be a narrow Yes. Thus the Borders would be dragged out of the UK against their will.


Even in the 90s they were talking about "independence in Europe" which is a contradiction in terms. It would just be an alternative partnership, but with Brussels instead of London.

If you go back a bit earlier than the 90's they wanted to leave The Common Market and NATO !!!
 

GusB

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Well, there's certainly a lot to deal with here.

A lot like Brexit then - in fact it is exactly the same principle. Have a look at that and see if the "ah it'll be alright on the night" mentality is how Scotland should start life as an independent nation.

Unless you're suggesting any referendum on independence should not be binding in any way whatsoever without some *waves hands* period of...reflection and discussion?
No, I'm suggesting that after a "yes" vote there will be a period of time where negotiations take place between Scotland and the UK government in order to thrash out the exit plan. Just as happened with the EU referendum. I don't honestly see why there's a problem with this. I didn't once suggest that "ah it'll be alright on the night".
Who would Scotland's armed forces be? Has that conversation even remotely happened yet? How will you control your own destiny? How will an independent Scotland ensure it isn't a vassal state of England, as it has hilariously claimed to be over the last ten years? What money will you use, and who will actually control your monetary policy?

Scotland's armed forces would be a proportion of the UK armed forces. We already conveniently have one single regiment in the country. Navy and air forces will be divided accordingly. On the currency issue we have a few options of which keeping the pound is one. If you'd bother your arse to go and do some reading you'd probably find out.

Isn't one of reasons for wanting Scottish independence so that Scotland can rejoin the EU.

"Control your own destiny" and membership of the EU are incompatible, no matter how much Nicola Sturgeon may try and gloss over this fact.

Oh, here we go again: "How can you possibly be in charge of your own destiny if you want to rejoin the EU?" Members of the EU are sovereign states in their own right that happen to belong to a single body in order to further common interests. I'm not even saying that Scotland should rejoin the EU. EFTA is an option, perhaps as a stepping stone to full EU membership. Once again, this will be something that will have to be put to the electorate in a future vote; no party can decide now what the future will be.

I agree with you that there should've been more positive dialogue after the Brexit referendum - but what makes you so sure the same problem won't happen if a future referendum produces a (narrow) pro-independence vote? Can you really be sure the SNP won't act in the same way that the pro-Brexit politicians did after 2016: Just say, 'Independence means Independence' and proceed to steamroll through whatever they want, ignoring any concerns of everyone in Scotland who didn't vote for independence?

The SNP cannot steamroll anything through. They don't have a majority government and will have to rely on the support of other parties. This is the way that the Scottish Parliament was supposed to be. They had a majority just once and I don't think it's likely to be repeated. I wouldn't want it to be repeated, to be honest. It's not Westminster where the aim is to have a majority of seats, and it's about time that you realised this.

When you say discussion between the parties, do you mean between the UK and the EU, or internally to the UK?
The former was difficult as the stated position of the EU was that there could be no talks before Article 50 was triggered. They were also keen that it should be triggered as soon as possible to avoid the UK remaining a member into the next budget period and having to have another round of EU Parliamentary elections in the UK.

There’s no such formal process for Scottish independence, which is going to be far more complicated due to how much more integrated the UK is.

I meant between the parties of the UK. Once it was decided by the electorate that we were leaving the EU it was tory Brexit or nothing. I'd like to think that in the event of an independence vote there would be a broad consensus on how we moved forward.

If IndyRef2 were held tomorrow, I reckon the Borders constituencies would vote No and either of the following 2 outcomes would prevail.

1. The rest of Scotland would narrowly vote Yes but the Borders would swing it into a collective No result. Thus the Borders would keep the rest of Scotland in the UK against its will.

2. The final result would be a narrow Yes. Thus the Borders would be dragged out of the UK against their will.

Whatever way it went, if there was a majority for one or the other the minority would have to abide by the decision. That's what happened in the EU referendum; while I don't like it, that's democracy. It's funny how some folk are happy to shout that when the result goes their way, but immediately cry foul if it doesn't.

Even in the 90s they were talking about "independence in Europe" which is a contradiction in terms. It would just be an alternative partnership, but with Brussels instead of London.

See above. States which are members of the EU are still independent, sovereign states. Change the record!
 

AlterEgo

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Well, there's certainly a lot to deal with here.


No, I'm suggesting that after a "yes" vote there will be a period of time where negotiations take place between Scotland and the UK government in order to thrash out the exit plan. Just as happened with the EU referendum. I don't honestly see why there's a problem with this. I didn't once suggest that "ah it'll be alright on the night".
Yes but what if the exit plans turns out to be the Westminster administration imposing unfavourable conditions on the Scottish? What if...it doesn’t really turn out that well? “Yeah, the referendum will be binding, independence means independence and the practicalities can all be worked out later - sure all the negotiating will go well! Fingers crossed!”
Scotland's armed forces would be a proportion of the UK armed forces. We already conveniently have one single regiment in the country. Navy and air forces will be divided accordingly. On the currency issue we have a few options of which keeping the pound is one. If you'd bother your arse to go and do some reading you'd probably find out.
Why do you assume all of the soldiers in Scotland’s regiments would wish to serve in a completely different army serving different objectives and with a vastly reduced scope? Do you know any Scottish people in the armed forces? How do you think they vote, and how many do you think are unionists? Has the British Army agreed to hive off its Scottish soldiers? How big will your army and navy be? What about an Air Force? Just all gifted to you?

“A few options” one of which is keeping the pound which Westminster will control. I know what the options are, thank you. The problem is they’re not all the same and nobody knows what monetary and currency policy you will have until...I dunno, some time after independence? Something for the negotiations once you’ve got people’s votes.

Just admit there’s no cohesive vision for an independent Scotland, no consensus for what it would look like or how it would even work.
See above. States which are members of the EU are still independent, sovereign states. Change the record!
One of the most interesting men I’ve ever studied was Michael Collins. Given one question, I would love to ask him if he considered an Ireland in the European Union a fully sovereign country as he imagined.



Whatever way it went, if there was a majority for one or the other the minority would have to abide by the decision. That's what happened in the EU referendum; while I don't like it, that's democracy. It's funny how some folk are happy to shout that when the result goes their way, but immediately cry foul if it doesn't.

You just had a referendum seven years ago! The hypocrisy and sheer gall to post that!

I’ve a lot of sympathy for the idea of self-determination based on identity or common values, and I’m not against independence for Scotland. After all, I don’t live there. I’m not even a unionist. But I do find the intellectual dishonesty with the “independence now” movement pretty dispiriting. It’s Brexit, on a smaller playing board, with higher stakes and even more alarming questions still to be answered and resolved.
 

XAM2175

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You just had a referendum seven years ago! The hypocrisy and sheer gall to post that!
We had a general election just shy of 18 months ago. Is that us done forever with those now, too?

Might I also suggest - since Mr Salmond is off somewhere at the moment to lick his wounded ego - that discussion of independence continue in the more-relevant thread?
 

GusB

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Why do you assume all of the soldiers in Scotland’s regiments would wish to serve in a completely different army serving different objectives and with a vastly reduced scope? Do you know any Scottish people in the armed forces? How do you think they vote, and how many do you think are unionists? Has the British Army agreed to hive off its Scottish soldiers? How big will your army and navy be? What about an Air Force? Just all gifted to you?

Why do you assume that soldiers in Scotland's regiment (there is only one now) wouldn't want to serve in a completely different army serving different objectives and with a vastly reduced scope? It seems logical that a single Scottish regiment could easily become Scotland's army. As for the Navy and Air Force, is it not logical for us to have a part of that too?

As for it being "gifted" to us - we pay for it now. Part of it is ours. Along with everything else that we've contributed to. The way you lot go on it's as if there's never ending flow of northbound cash from England with nothing in return. This is simply not the case.

You just had a referendum seven years ago! The hypocrisy and sheer gall to post that!

Yes we did. I was disappointed, but I accepted the result at the time. It doesn't stop me from wishing that it will happen at some point in the future. They say a week is a long time in politics, so seven years is an aeon. We also had that minor event inbetween where one part of the UK by sheer weight of numbers dragged two other parts out of the EU. The last general few general elections resulted in conservative governments - do we simply accept that the tories are in power now and are likely to be for the considerable future and therefore there's no point in holding any future elections?
 

AlterEgo

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Why do you assume that soldiers in Scotland's regiment (there is only one now) wouldn't want to serve in a completely different army serving different objectives and with a vastly reduced scope? It seems logical that a single Scottish regiment could easily become Scotland's army. As for the Navy and Air Force, is it not logical for us to have a part of that too?
Why do I assume? Because I know a lot of Armed Forces personnel - including a lot of Scots. None of the Scots are SNP or indy supporters and independence is very much a minority pursuit in the army. In any case it’s not hard to realise that soldiers, on balance, will be unionists. They didn’t sign up to defend Scotland but the UK and the interests of the sovereign.
As for it being "gifted" to us - we pay for it now. Part of it is ours. Along with everything else that we've contributed to. The way you lot go on it's as if there's never ending flow of northbound cash from England with nothing in return. This is simply not the case.
This is entirely it. “You lot” - I’m not even a unionist, just an English person who actually thinks the principle of Scottish independence is okay, telling you this is daft and all of the same criticisms you could level against Brexit could be levelled against the Scottish independence campaign.

Many of us can see through the SNP’s spin for it to be fundamentally a separatist and anti-English endeavour.

Please, I beg of Scotland - sort out who you’d like to be instead of asking who you’d not like to be. The current situation is undignified.
Yes we did. I was disappointed, but I accepted the result at the time. It doesn't stop me from wishing that it will happen at some point in the future. They say a week is a long time in politics, so seven years is an aeon.
Good stuff. Looking forward to future referendums in any independent Scotland for reunion with Britain. Within seven years.
We also had that minor event inbetween where one part of the UK by sheer weight of numbers dragged two other parts out of the EU. The last general few general elections resulted in conservative governments - do we simply accept that the tories are in power now and are likely to be for the considerable future and therefore there's no point in holding any future elections?
Not going to expand on how a referendum on constitutional arrangements differs from a general election to choose the government, it’s a non-starter.
 

DynamicSpirit

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Yes we did. I was disappointed, but I accepted the result at the time. It doesn't stop me from wishing that it will happen at some point in the future.

By itself that's pretty reasonable. I imagine that if I lived in Scotland and supported independence, I'd feel the same way. But wishing that another referendum will happen at some point in the future is some way from what the SNP and most nationalist politicians are saying and doing: I actually watched Nicola Sturgeon being interviewed on the Andrew Marr show this morning and she basically said that if the UK Government doesn't allow Scotland another referendum as soon as practical that would somehow be anti-democratic. As if the way the SNP are ignoring the 2014 'once-in-a-generation' referendum result isn't itself even more anti-democratic! I don't think you should under-estimate how much anger and bad feeling that kind of hypocrisy is causing.

The SNP cannot steamroll anything through. They don't have a majority government and will have to rely on the support of other parties. This is the way that the Scottish Parliament was supposed to be. They had a majority just once and I don't think it's likely to be repeated. I wouldn't want it to be repeated, to be honest. It's not Westminster where the aim is to have a majority of seats, and it's about time that you realised this.

They can steamroll through anything that gets Green support. That still allows them to ignore the views of about 50% of Scots - as far as you can judge by voting numbers. What do you think the chances are that they'll do exactly that? They seem to have quite a record of doing that so far.

(I do btw agree with you about the desirability of avoiding majority one-party Government, and I do very much wish the UK Parliament had a more proportional voting system too).
 

GusB

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Why do I assume? Because I know a lot of Armed Forces personnel - including a lot of Scots. None of the Scots are SNP or indy supporters and independence is very much a minority pursuit in the army. In any case it’s not hard to realise that soldiers, on balance, will be unionists. They didn’t sign up to defend Scotland but the UK and the interests of the sovereign.

I also know a fair few people who have been in the armed forces - my father included. He was an SNP and independence supporter but it was made clear to me during election times that it wasn't the done thing for him or his family to be showing any particular party allegiance.

Many of us can see through the SNP’s spin for it to be fundamentally a separatist and anti-English endeavour.

And there we have it. The anti-English card has been played, as it always is in these discussions. It's nothing to do with being anti-English as far as I'm concerned, but I do sense much anti-Scottish sentiment here.

By itself that's pretty reasonable. I imagine that if I lived in Scotland and supported independence, I'd feel the same way. But wishing that another referendum will happen at some point in the future is some way from what the SNP and most nationalist politicians are saying and doing: I actually watched Nicola Sturgeon being interviewed on the Andrew Marr show this morning and she basically said that if the UK Government doesn't allow Scotland another referendum as soon as practical that would somehow be anti-democratic. As if the way the SNP are ignoring the 2014 'once-in-a-generation' referendum result isn't itself even more anti-democratic! I don't think you should under-estimate how much anger and bad feeling that kind of hypocrisy is causing.

Goodness me. Can we ditch the "once in a generation" thing? If it had been said that "this is an historical moment" I doubt anything more would have been said. It was a figure of speech, but the unionists have taken it on board as if it was a legally binding contract. Do let's please move on from this.
 

Cowley

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Thread now closed having ended up in the same place as all the other similar threads before. Thanks folks. :)
 
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