"The North Of England Is Getting A Rough Deal" discussion

[Moonshot]

Hence why I said RT are recruiting journalists. You'd fit in nicely with your "I'm right and anyone who disagrees with me is very wrong" attitude.



It's the most criticised public transport system on social media, with the criticism coming from the people who use it. The new trams with very low seating capacity have gone down badly while there's no back up plan when things go wrong - telling people their tickets are accepted on local bus routes doesn't work as the local bus routes don't have sufficient capacity to carry the Metrolink passengers, while passengers usually get told to use local bus routes before the drivers get told to accept Metrolink tickets.



The last T68 has recently been withdrawn. West Midlands Metro are in the process of replacing their newer T69s so the Metrolink trams have lasted as long as any other second generation trams in the UK, even though they are being withdrawn early based on life expectancy of trams in European countries.

And yet it carries tens of thousands of passengers everyday around Greater Manchester, and is being expanded.
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Such as ? I don't see any Pacers rattling into the metropolis every day.

The North has been starved of investment for decades and will continue to get a bad deal until all its towns and cities gets the level of investment seen in the south.

Maybe then the best idea is to remove regulated/subsidised fares up here and let the market send true price signals to the private investment market?

 

[northwichcat]

And yet it carries tens of thousands of passengers everyday around Greater Manchester

And? With the size of Metrolink and the frequency of service you wouldn't expect it not to. Merseyrail carries hundreds of thousands of passengers every day and Merseyrail are rated highly in Passenger Focus surveys while Metrolink rate poorly in Passenger Focus surveys.

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co...am-its-great-apart-from-when-it-breaks-692959

 

[muddythefish]

Maybe then the best idea is to remove regulated/subsidised fares up here and let the market send true price signals to the private investment market?

And at the same time remove regulated/subsidised fares in the south east (only FCC is not subsidised) and while you're at it bring northern wages in line with those in the south east for doing the same jobs ?

Next.

 

[Moonshot]

And? With the size of Metrolink and the frequency of service you wouldn't expect it not to. Merseyrail carries hundreds of thousands of passengers every day and Merseyrail are rated highly in Passenger Focus surveys while Metrolink rate poorly in Passenger Focus surveys.

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co...am-its-great-apart-from-when-it-breaks-692959

As below , Passenger Focus Survey .....


83 percent of Metrolink passengers were satisfied with their journey overall. This was significantly higher than the same measure achieved on the National Rail Passenger – Survey (76%) and significantly lower than the Bus Passenger Survey in the Transport for Greater Manchester area (86%)


Like I said , I see tens of thousands of passengers using this every day , and the network is expanding. It does exactly what public transport is supposed to.....ie get the public from A to B. The fact that you dont like it is irrelevant.
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And at the same time remove regulated/subsidised fares in the south east (only FCC is not subsidised) and while you're at it bring northern wages in line with those in the south east for doing the same jobs ?

Next.

I m of the opinion that fares in the South east are probably at market levels anyway, regulated or not.

 

[northwichcat]

As below , Passenger Focus Survey .....


83 percent of Metrolink passengers were satisfied with their journey overall. This was significantly higher than the same measure achieved on the National Rail Passenger – Survey (76%) and significantly lower than the Bus Passenger Survey in the Transport for Greater Manchester area (86%)


Like I said , I see tens of thousands of passengers using this every day , and the network is expanding. It does exactly what public transport is supposed to.....ie get the public from A to B. The fact that you dont like it is irrelevant.

Selective quoting there, 83% is the lowest score given in the tram survey and 15% of Metrolink suffer delays compare to the average of 10%. In the Liverpool area passengers have 93% satisfaction with Merseyrail so what's the big deal about this tram system?

Passenger Focus also found 47% of Metrolink users thought Metrolink is either very poor value for money or poor value for money, while 48% of users thinks it provides either very good or good value for money. So, roughly for every Metrolink user who's happy with what they pay there is one unsatisfied Metrolink user.

Yes what I think of it's irrelevant but so is your constant overselling of the system.

 

[Moonshot]

Selective quoting there, 83% is the lowest score given in the tram survey and 15% of Metrolink suffer delays compare to the average of 10%. In the Liverpool area passengers have 93% satisfaction with Merseyrail so what's the big deal about this tram system?

Passenger Focus also found 47% of Metrolink users thought Metrolink is either very poor value for money or poor value for money, while 48% of users thinks it provides either very good or good value for money. So, roughly for every Metrolink user who's happy with what they pay there is one unsatisfied Metrolink user.

Yes what I think of it's irrelevant but so is your constant overselling of the system.

Like I said, it does exactly what it is supposed to do.....get people from A to B. I think its great, I use it whenever I can.....leaving the car at home. Of course Metrolink recieves no operating subsidy either.......

Whatever me and you post on here is irrelevant, its matters not one jot in the real world.

 

[NotATrainspott]

The money which might be spent on new trains evaporates in subsidy every day on Northern and other regional TOC areas without a viable revenue stream.
There are some basic rules of economics that are inescapable.
It's all about short uneconomic trains running on an over-complex network, taking low fares over short distances (relative to intercity and south east services).
It's no better in most of Scotland, Wales or the south-west.

Unfortunately for everyone else that isn't quite true. Whether by accident or design the worst of the Scottish rail network is probably just as good or better than comparable lines through the North, Wales and the West Country. Probably the biggest single change is that the sorts of lines that Pacers are used on elsewhere have been steadily electrified over the past fifty years. The initial investment in the North Clyde and Cathcart Circle lines back then has made it very easy to continue onto other lines. After EGIP it would only be a couple more years and the entirety of the Strathclyde rail network could be run with EMUs, aside from the occasional rural or regional train.

 

[Peter Lanky]

It seems that a few selective areas of modernisation are being used to justify the North West as 'getting a good deal'. Yes, things are starting to look as if they may improve, but it has been a long time in the waiting and the improvements aren't evenly dispersed.

Take Bolton for example. As already pointed out, it is not dissimilar in size and population from the main NE towns, but at 3.5 million, has 50% more passengers than Middlesbrough and Sunderland put together. Despite this, the town is served by mainly pacers and other 2 coach DMUs with a few 3 car TPE services. Stand on the huge platforms and one gets a feeling of gross underinvestment, as people cram themselves desperately onto these crappy trains.

Move to Stockport and a station with slightly fewer passengers than Bolton, and you have nice shiny Pendolinos every 20 minutes, Cross Country trains to Birmingham and beyond every half hour, and around 9 other mainly fast and comfortable commuter trains every hour.

Things may be improving, but they are certainly far from approaching equal.

 

[AM9]

And at the same time remove regulated/subsidised fares in the south east (only FCC is not subsidised) and while you're at it bring northern wages in line with those in the south east for doing the same jobs ?

Next.

and level house prices and availability?

 

[northwichcat]

and level house prices and availability?

Level across the North?

Currently Altrincham, Greater Manchester is the most expensive to buy a property outside London & The South East with an average price of £2,227 per m² ahead of Edinburgh (£2,214). Solihull (£2,189), and Leamington Spa (£2,144)

While Stanley, County Durham is the cheapest nationally with the average price £818 per m², so a great deal of variance across the North.

 

[Moonshot]

It seems that a few selective areas of modernisation are being used to justify the North West as 'getting a good deal'. Yes, things are starting to look as if they may improve, but it has been a long time in the waiting and the improvements aren't evenly dispersed.

Take Bolton for example. As already pointed out, it is not dissimilar in size and population from the main NE towns, but at 3.5 million, has 50% more passengers than Middlesbrough and Sunderland put together. Despite this, the town is served by mainly pacers and other 2 coach DMUs with a few 3 car TPE services. Stand on the huge platforms and one gets a feeling of gross underinvestment, as people cram themselves desperately onto these crappy trains.

Move to Stockport and a station with slightly fewer passengers than Bolton, and you have nice shiny Pendolinos every 20 minutes, Cross Country trains to Birmingham and beyond every half hour, and around 9 other mainly fast and comfortable commuter trains every hour.

Things may be improving, but they are certainly far from approaching equal.

Of course what you fail to point out is that Bolton is one area which will benefit from OHLE, the groundwork for which has already started. I also seem to remember someone on this forum pointing out that Bolton had £4 million spent on it not that long ago......are you saying that was money wasted?

 

[Peter Lanky]

Of course what you fail to point out is that Bolton is one area which will benefit from OHLE, the groundwork for which has already started. I also seem to remember someone on this forum pointing out that Bolton had £4 million spent on it not that long ago......are you saying that was money wasted?

I don't live in Bolton, so am not aware of any £4M. What is it supposed to have been spent on? Is it the new bus 'interchange'? If so, then it's barely started yet, and the who project is something that the population of the town neither needed nor wanted.

As I said, there is light at the end of the tunnel, but it has been far too long coming, and when the line is electrified, along with Wigan-Liverpool, it appears the plan is to run the lines with cast off rolling stock from somewhere considered more important.

 

[sprinterguy]

As I said, there is light at the end of the tunnel, but it has been far too long coming, and when the line is electrified, along with Wigan-Liverpool, it appears the plan is to run the lines with cast off rolling stock from somewhere considered more important.

As has been mentioned several times on this forum, you can’t operate the new Thameslink network with class 319s due to the need for Automatic Train Operation to support the high frequencies through the Thameslink core (and it makes sense to have a uniform fleet), but the 319s, of which Northern are receiving the youngest examples, are far from life expired.

I really can’t see what the problem is with Northern receiving cascaded 319s to operate the newly electrified North West services, particularly if we assume that they will see a refurbishment under the next franchise (fingers crossed admittedly).

 

[HSTEd]

Would you rather no rolling stock at all?

That is the result if you turn your nose up at the 'cast off' stock.

 

[Moonshot]

As has been mentioned several times on this forum, you can’t operate the new Thameslink network with class 319s due to the need for Automatic Train Operation to support the high frequencies through the Thameslink core (and it makes sense to have a uniform fleet), but the 319s, of which Northern are receiving the youngest examples, are far from life expired.

I really can’t see what the problem is with Northern receiving cascaded 319s to operate the newly electrified North West services, particularly if we assume that they will see a refurbishment under the next franchise (fingers crossed admittedly).

Correct.....absolutely no issue whatsoever.......they will do the job they are supposed to do just fine.
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I don't live in Bolton, so am not aware of any £4M. What is it supposed to have been spent on? Is it the new bus 'interchange'? If so, then it's barely started yet, and the who project is something that the population of the town neither needed nor wanted.

As I said, there is light at the end of the tunnel, but it has been far too long coming, and when the line is electrified, along with Wigan-Liverpool, it appears the plan is to run the lines with cast off rolling stock from somewhere considered more important.

No - it was on the station itself.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Level across the North? Currently Altrincham, Greater Manchester is the most expensive to buy a property outside London & The South East with an average price of £2,227 per m² ahead of Edinburgh (£2,214). Solihull (£2,189), and Leamington Spa (£2,144).

I take it that Altrincham includes the areas of Bowdon and of Hale Barns. Incidentally, how does my own area of Prestbury fare in this summary ?

 

[northwichcat]

I take it that Altrincham includes the areas of Bowdon and of Hale Barns. Incidentally, how does my own area of Prestbury fare in this summary ?

Not mentioned. They only named the top 10 (all within Greater London), the bottom 10 and then the four highest outside Greater London. In 2005 Knutsford was the highest outside London, with Altrincham second place but since then Altrincham's overtaken Knutsford. I imagine all surrounding villages are included so in the case of Altrincham it'll include Bowdon, Hale, Hale Barnes, Timperley and Dunham Massey.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Not mentioned. They only named the top 10 (all within Greater London), the bottom 10 and then the four highest outside Greater London. In 2005 Knutsford was the highest outside London, with Altrincham second place but since then Altrincham's overtaken Knutsford. I imagine all surrounding villages are included so in the case of Altrincham it'll include Bowdon, Hale, Hale Barnes, Timperley and Dunham Massey.

I was in Wilmslow this morning and looked at the displays in both Savilles and in Jackson Stops and Staff who specialise in those properties that you see in Cheshire Life and Prestbury was well represented with the number of properties of £7,000,000 and over.

 

[Peter Lanky]

No - it was on the station itself.

In that case, I can't really see where the money has been used. The only change I can see is a new section of roof between the station building and the part of the platform where the trains actually stop; the gap originally created when the grand old station building was replaced by the current toytown one on the opposite side of the main road. However this happened over 25 years ago, so again was a long time coming.

Having just written this, it is feasible that £4M could have been spent on this, knowing how modern construction costs seem completely out of phase with the actual work.

 

[Moonshot]

In that case, I can't really see where the money has been used. The only change I can see is a new section of roof between the station building and the part of the platform where the trains actually stop; the gap originally created when the grand old station building was replaced by the current toytown one on the opposite side of the main road. However this happened over 25 years ago, so again was a long time coming.

Having just written this, it is feasible that £4 could have been spent on this, knowing how modern construction costs seem completely out of phase with the actual work.

You could probably accuse other parts of the rail network of similar as well ....

 

[Wolfie]

And at the same time remove regulated/subsidised fares in the south east (only FCC is not subsidised) and while you're at it bring northern wages in line with those in the south east for doing the same jobs ?

Next.

When you have to pay £330k for a one bed ex-Council flat in the North as you do in many areas of London then perhaps you will get London-size wages. Perhaps the premium payments made by London and Southern TOCS should be spent solely in the South - see how long Northern lasts then. Wanting summat for nowt - the Northern way!

 

[northwichcat]

When you have to pay £330k for a one bed ex-Council flat in the North as you do in many areas of London then perhaps you will get London-size wages. Perhaps the premium payments made by London and Southern TOCS should be spent solely in the South - see how long Northern lasts then. Wanting summat for nowt - the Northern way!

London's a lot more dependent on public transport than other parts of the country, people have to use it however much it costs.

If all Northern Rail services went overnight then you can safely assume a large number of Virgin, East Coast and EMT mainline services would go soon after as without the connections to/from local services the viability of Intercity service to London is reduced and London would suffer as a result.

 

[Moonshot]

London's a lot more dependent on public transport than other parts of the country, people have to use it however much it costs.

If all Northern Rail services went overnight then you can safely assume a large number of Virgin, East Coast and EMT mainline services would go soon after as without the connections to/from local services the viability of Intercity service to London is reduced and London would suffer as a result.

No they wouldnt.....if someone has a pressing need to use a Virgin, East Coast or EMT service to get to London, they will just use another way of getting to the station. Here in Manchester, the tram is very much a viable way of getting to a mainline station.

 

[neilmc]

If t'train don't run we catch t'bus. Sorted, our kid.

 

[Peter Lanky]

When you have to pay £330k for a one bed ex-Council flat in the North as you do in many areas of London then perhaps you will get London-size wages. Perhaps the premium payments made by London and Southern TOCS should be spent solely in the South - see how long Northern lasts then. Wanting summat for nowt - the Northern way!

If the salaries in London were the same as the rest of the country, then nobody would be able to afford (or want to pay) £330k for a one bed ex council flat. Then the price would drop, and probably a lot of people everywhere (including London) would end up a lot happier. It's an ever self perpetuating cycle that will end up in tears one day.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

When you have to pay £330k for a one bed ex-Council flat in the North as you do in many areas of London then perhaps you will get London-size wages. Perhaps the premium payments made by London and Southern TOCS should be spent solely in the South - see how long Northern lasts then. Wanting summat for nowt - the Northern way!

The answer is simple. Reduce all costs of everything in "the beautiful South" to the average levels "up North"....then you will the qualify for the not inconsiderable benefits of train lengths of two or three coach services as a maximum and the best of all, cascadation of all the ex-Merseyrail Class 142 Pacers to your area...

 

[northwichcat]

No they wouldnt.....if someone has a pressing need to use a Virgin, East Coast or EMT service to get to London, they will just use another way of getting to the station. Here in Manchester, the tram is very much a viable way of getting to a mainline station.

A lot of people on the London services are leisure travellers using the advance tickets.

An Altrincham to London Advance starts at £14. If the Northern Rail service is delayed and you miss the booked Virgin service you can travel on the next train and you may get rail travel vouchers as compensation.

If you use Metrolink you have to pay £4.30 to get to Manchester, then the Advance tickets start at £11.50. However, if Metrolink have a problem and after 20 minutes of waiting you're told to get the 263 bus and by the time you get to Manchester your train is long gone. Your ticket is then not valid for the next service and you must pay £78.70 to get to London or go home. You certainly won't get a refund for your £11.50 ticket and shouldn't expect much from Metrolink either.

Hence, Metrolink is not a suitable alternative to heavy rail and London services would suffer. You've obviously never been to Stockport in the morning peak when hundreds of people who alight Northern services board connecting Virgin services.

 

[Moonshot]

A lot of people on the London services are leisure travellers using the advance tickets.

An Altrincham to London Advance starts at £14. If the Northern Rail service is delayed and you miss the booked Virgin service you can travel on the next train.

If you use Metrolink you have to pay £4.30 to get to Manchester, then the Advance tickets start at £11.50. However, if Metrolink have a problem and after 20 minutes of waiting you're told to get the 263 bus and by the time you get to Manchester your train is long gone. Your ticket is then not valid for the next service and you must pay £78.70 to get to London or go home.

Hence, Metrolink is not a suitable alternative to heavy rail and London services would suffer. You've obviously never been to Stockport in the morning peak when hundreds of people who alight Northern services board connecting Virgin services.

Dear me......pray do tell me how many passengers have gone home after 20 minutes of waiting.....lol....

 

[northwichcat]

If t'train don't run we catch t'bus. Sorted, our kid.

Well for me Manchester is 40-50 minutes away by train and there's a hourly train, with the last train home at 23:17. By bus it involves a change and would take at least 90 minutes (not including a connection time) and if I'm not home by 19:30 I'd have to wait until the next morning. Hardly sorted. People working in Manchester would either buy a car or move.
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Dear me......pray do tell me how many passengers have gone home after 20 minutes of waiting.....lol....

READ THE POST PROPERLY. I'm saying they'd wait for a tram for 20 minutes and then be told one isn't coming and they should take the bus. It happens at least a few times a month on the Altrincham Metrolink line. Oh dear you're still in your deluded world that Metrolink can't go wrong and there's never a wait of more than 6 minutes. Well Metrolink goes wrong and the passengers get very annoyed because they don't have a viable alternative to transport the passengers during disruption - get over it!

 

[Moonshot]

Just for the benefit of those forumites who arent aware of what Metrolink is...its a light rail system which has its roots in the conversion of 2 heavy rail lines from the BR days which were life expired. Its proven very successful and has expanded at a fair rate of knots over the years, its played a big part in the success of Manchester.

There are now more tram stops than rail stations in the area.....and a lot of the stops are actually on main roads. Its a brilliant way of getting around the area using public transport, and is still expanding. It may well take on some more of the current heavy rail lines into Manchester - ie convert from heavy to light rail.
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Well for me Manchester is 40-50 minutes away by train and there's a hourly train, with the last train home at 23:17. By bus it involves a change and would take at least 90 minutes (not including a connection time) and if I'm not home by 19:30 I'd have to wait until the next morning. Hardly sorted. People working in Manchester would either buy a car or move.
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READ THE POST PROPERLY. I'm saying they'd wait for a tram for 20 minutes and then be told one isn't coming and they should take the bus. It happens at least a few times a month on the Altrincham Metrolink line. Oh dear you're still in your deluded world that Metrolink can't go wrong and there's never a wait of more than 6 minutes. Well Metrolink goes wrong and the passengers get very annoyed because they don't have a viable alternative to transport the passengers during disruption - get over it!

Indeed it does go wrong sometimes, just like the rail network does.......