The proposed Eden Project North at Morecambe

[LSWR Cavalier]

I have visited the Cornish Eden Project.

It attracts a lot of visitors.
Very few arrive by public transport.
It hasn't transformed Saint Austell.

But the setting is very different to the Morecambe project so I'm not sure we can learn a lot from the experience there.

Is it worth visiting, would you recommend it to others, would you go again? How much does entry cost? What about food prices?

Did it inspire you to green your life? Is it anything like the NCAT near Machynlleth?

 

[yorksrob]

Is it worth visiting, would you recommend it to others, would you go again? How much does entry cost? What about food prices?

Did it inspire you to green your life? Is it anything like the NCAT near Machynlleth?

I can't remember what it cost, but I found it interesting looking at all the different plants.

They also did a nice baked potato as I recall.

 

[MarkyT]

Very true. When me and the family visited, we caught the train to Set Austell, then had to get a reasonably long taxi ride to it. The Morecambe one will be on the seafront and right near to the station, do a different prospect for public transport (and possibly the town) altogether.

Taking 20 minutes, there is a direct hourly bus, First Kernow D5, from St. Austell bus station, handily situated in the railway station forecourt:

D5 - Lanhydrock - Eden Project – First Kernow – bustimes.org

bustimes.org

For a family or other small group without free or discounted travel authority, it might still be better value to take a taxi both ways which also saves approx. 5 minutes, compared to the bus journey.
Don't know why bustimes.org lists the route as coming from Lost Gardens of Heligan instead of St Austell. Maybe, historically, the D5 used to cross St Austell. The Mevagissey/Heligan route is the 24 today, which goes via St. Austell to Fowey.

 

[Bald Rick]

Yes, but part of the planning/proposal is pedestrianisation of quite a large part of the promenade around Eden site, removal of the car park on the site, and a clear expectation that visitors will get there by means other than driving.

the expectation in the planning application is that most visitors will get there by driving, but some might be able to use public transport.

The planning application identifies underused parking in town as likely to be used (and that is agreed by the local authority), along with potential use of the P&R site mentioned above.

the numbers attending are not going to be massive. c3000 visitors on a busy day, all ticketed with specific arrival times, spread throughout the day.

 

[6Gman]

Is it worth visiting, would you recommend it to others, would you go again? How much does entry cost? What about food prices?

Did it inspire you to green your life? Is it anything like the NCAT near Machynlleth?

Yes (worth visiting - though these things are subjective).
Yes (would recommend to people with any interest in botany and/or environment).
Yes, we would go again.
No idea what it costs - website will tell you.
Don't recall food prices being exorbitant.
Didn't really inspire me to change anything, but I was already pretty environmentally inclined.
Never been to the NCAT, but I suspect Eden is much more slick and commercial.

To get back on topic I'm not sure that beyond the branding there will be much to learn from the Cornish one when it comes to the usage of the Morecambe project.

 

[LSWR Cavalier]

Thanks for the replies. A second try, a good opportunity for the ec northwest to be better and different.

 

[yorksrob]

It was Bill Bryson in "Notes from a Small Island" who suggested that Morecambe might aim to become to the North West what Sausalito is to California. It may yet happen !

 

[randyrippley]

The solution to access is simple.
Build a park-and-ride car park at Heysham, at the end of the Bay Gateway. Industrial land there used as lorry depots that could be repurposed. Build a new station on the Heysham branch and run a shuttle from there to Morecambe. Battery or electric.
Should be possible to run a service every 30 mins with one unit
That way avoids the traffic problems of Lancaster and Morecambe and solves the problem of road access. It also makes the shuttle service self-contained.

For rail a couple changes would help.
Terminate all Leeds services at Lancaster, allowing the Lancaster-Morecambe service to become self-contained
Going back to using Lancaster platform 5 for reversing the Morecambe service would give fewer conflicts
Presumably electrifying the Morecambe service would save some time north of Lancaster


And just a thought to whoever was criticising the cable-car idea. It was suggested by Ian Hughes - the very guy who was the originator of the whole Eden North concept. I wouldn't file it in the bin just yet
This was the old thread about it, and at the time the numbers estimated worked

Cablecar service for Lancaster, Morecambe and Eden Project North

not my idea, something in the Lancaster Guardian this week https://www.lancasterguardian.co.uk/business/82m-30m-high-aerial-tramway-vision-would-link-eden-project-north-to-lancaster-university-and-m6-1-9897532 It looks like the Eden Project North is going to happen in Morecambe, is this the way...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Phil56]

The solution to access is simple.
Build a park-and-ride car park at Heysham, at the end of the Bay Gateway. Industrial land there used as lorry depots that could be repurposed. Build a new station on the Heysham branch and run a shuttle from there to Morecambe. Battery or electric.
Should be possible to run a service every 30 mins with one unit
That way avoids the traffic problems of Lancaster and Morecambe and solves the problem of road access. It also makes the shuttle service self-contained.

For rail a couple changes would help.
Terminate all Leeds services at Lancaster, allowing the Lancaster-Morecambe service to become self-contained
Going back to using Lancaster platform 5 for reversing the Morecambe service would give fewer conflicts
Presumably electrifying the Morecambe service would save some time north of Lancaster


And just a thought to whoever was criticising the cable-car idea. It was suggested by Ian Hughes - the very guy who was the originator of the whole Eden North concept. I wouldn't file it in the bin just yet
This was the old thread about it, and at the time the numbers estimated worked

Cablecar service for Lancaster, Morecambe and Eden Project North

not my idea, something in the Lancaster Guardian this week https://www.lancasterguardian.co.uk/business/82m-30m-high-aerial-tramway-vision-would-link-eden-project-north-to-lancaster-university-and-m6-1-9897532 It looks like the Eden Project North is going to happen in Morecambe, is this the way...

www.railforums.co.uk

Yep, good call. Would also work the other way if the PNR was linked with the one at Caton Road so Heysham residents could get the PNR bus to Lancaster instead of the counter intuitive drive from Heysham to Caton Road, maybe by a triangular PNR bus route of Caton Road<>Lancaster<>Heysham. If the site/station was on the Morecambe side of the by pass at Heysham it could also attract Heysham residents onto the train to change at Morecambe for onward travel to Lancaster and beyond.

A station at the West End would also help local residents, maybe on the land behind the football stadium (disused artificial pitches) which is accessible for West End residents and also good for football supporters on match days to help ease the traffic/parking problems on and around Westage.

I do think that whatever public transport changes are put in place for Eden need to have dual purpose of being useful/helpful to improve public transport for local residents too, not just day trippers.

 

[30907]

The solution to access is simple.
Build a park-and-ride car park at Heysham, at the end of the Bay Gateway. Industrial land there used as lorry depots that could be repurposed. Build a new station on the Heysham branch and run a shuttle from there to Morecambe. Battery or electric.
Should be possible to run a service every 30 mins with one unit
That way avoids the traffic problems of Lancaster and Morecambe and solves the problem of road access. It also makes the shuttle service self-contained.

So you drive from the M6, past Caton Rd P&R, several miles to Heysham, and then travel back for 15min? 7m by car and 3 by rail instead of 5 by bus. That makes no sense, sorry.

Terminate all Leeds services at Lancaster, allowing the Lancaster-Morecambe service to become self-contained

Ideally, depending on pathing, I would keep 1 or 2 as through triangular workings using the curve from Hest Bank and the second track from Bare Lane - and to cover the lunchtime boat train.

Going back to using Lancaster platform 5 for reversing the Morecambe service would give fewer conflicts

It doesn't, but it evens them out between up and down directions so might be easier to timetable, rather than having to weave all up trains across the layout twice in quick succession.

Presumably electrifying the Morecambe service would save some time north of Lancaster

About half a minute?

 

[Bletchleyite]

The solution to access is simple.
Build a park-and-ride car park at Heysham

Why, when you could use and expand the existing M6 site and reduce traffic heading all the way in?

Re the cable car, if something expensive was being funded, a tram along the Green Ayre line would be better, again from the M6 site.

 

[randyrippley]

Why, when you could use and expand the existing M6 site and reduce traffic heading all the way in?

Re the cable car, if something expensive was being funded, a tram along the Green Ayre line would be better, again from the M6 site.

Any buses using the existing park and ride would have to negotiate either Lancaster Rd, Westgate, or the Bay Gateway / Heysham Rd / Promenade. All three routes suffer from congestion, and none provide a suitable ambience for an enviromental day out. A park-n-ride train from Heysham would avoid all that. Station-to-station time would be around ten minutes, whereas a bus from J34 would take 40+

Forget any idea of running a train via Green Ayre, unless you want to cantilever the track over the river at the back of Sainsburys and along St Georges Quay, and building a new bridge downstream of Carlisle bridge in a RAMSAR area and requiring demolition of new build flats on New Quay

One possible spanner in the works is the impending closure of both Heysham power stations, demolition of which may need restoration of dual track and real signalling on the Heysham branch

So you drive from the M6, past Caton Rd P&R, several miles to Heysham, and then travel back for 15min? 7m by car and 3 by rail instead of 5 by bus. That makes no sense, sorry.

Ideally, depending on pathing, I would keep 1 or 2 as through triangular workings using the curve from Hest Bank and the second track from Bare Lane - and to cover the lunchtime boat train.

If you know the local area and traffic problems it makes a lot of sense
Just as an aside, it's interesting that the main P&R use at J34 seems to be for locals car sharing commuting on the M6 AWAY from Lancaster, hence the low bus use. Few use it for accessing Lancaster

As for boat trains the natural market for these is from Liverpool where there's a significant Manx population. There's no daily year round boat service from the Mersey to cater for this. Much more sense to run the boat train from Liverpool than Leeds or Manchester

 

[6Gman]

As for boat trains the natural market for these is from Liverpool where there's a significant Manx population. There's no daily year round boat service from the Mersey to cater for this. Much more sense to run the boat train from Liverpool than Leeds or Manchester

This may be a stupid question (I claim no expertise in matters nautical) but why would Manx folk in Liverpool travel to Heysham when there is a vessel which sails from Liverpool?

(I know it sails/ has sailed from Birkenhead at various times but the main point stands.)

 

[randyrippley]

This may be a stupid question (I claim no expertise in matters nautical) but why would Manx folk in Liverpool travel to Heysham when there is a vessel which sails from Liverpool?

(I know it sails/ has sailed from Birkenhead at various times but the main point stands.)

For at least half the year it's a some Saturdays only service.
Heysham has been the only all year daily service since the late 1980s - when the Steam Packet went bust and it amalgamated with Sealink-Manx Line.
Liverpool only gets a more regular service for a few months during the summer when Mannanin (the ex-US navy catamaran) gets pulled out of mothballs, and even then it has to fit in services to Belfast and Dublin from the island as well

 

[SouthernR]

Any buses using the existing park and ride would have to negotiate either Lancaster Rd, Westgate, or the Bay Gateway / Heysham Rd / Promenade. All three routes suffer from congestion, and none provide a suitable ambience for an enviromental day out. A park-n-ride train from Heysham would avoid all that. Station-to-station time would be around ten minutes, whereas a bus from J34 would take 40+

If you know the local area and traffic problems it makes a lot of sense
Just as an aside, it's interesting that the main P&R use at J34 seems to be for locals car sharing commuting on the M6 AWAY from Lancaster, hence the low bus use. Few use it for accessing Lancaster.

The planning documents propose the shuttle bus route as Bay Gateway / Morecambe Road / Broadway / Promenade, which is about 7.5km, 10 minutes at least. I would only expect significant delays on summer weekends. The presumption is that much of the promenade would be pedestrianised, but the shuttle bus would be allowed access.

The existing P&R bus was introduced as a planning condition for the building of the Bay Gateway. I don't think anyone is surprised it's little used.

 

[underbank]

The planning documents propose the shuttle bus route as Bay Gateway / Morecambe Road / Broadway / Promenade, which is about 7.5km, 10 minutes at least. I would only expect significant delays on summer weekends. The presumption is that much of the promenade would be pedestrianised, but the shuttle bus would be allowed access.

The existing P&R bus was introduced as a planning condition for the building of the Bay Gateway. I don't think anyone is surprised it's little used.

If people don't use the existing P&R to go into Lancaster, there's little chance of them using it to go to Morecambe. As said above, the car park is mainly for people doing car shares and relatively few people use the shuttle bus into Lancaster. (Finishing early so useless for late finishing workers and the evening hospitality trade doesn't help, nor does the limited number of stops). It's at the wrong side of the City to be used for shoppers/commuters to get into Lancaster, hence the "dual purpose" arguably better option of having another P&R car park towards the Heysham end of the Bay Gateway which would at least be useful for locals to get into Lancaster.

As for congestion on the proposed P&R route, the Shrimp roundabout is already pretty congested and the Morecambe Road side is a lot busier due to the by-pass traffic. Not a good route at all for the P&R buses, especially as Eden is open all year round, so there'll be a lot more traffic taking that same route too!

 

[Grumpy]

The planning application identifies underused parking in town as likely to be used

Having family in the area we visit several times a year. The place may be an unfashionable dump but on any sunny day parking is hard to find anywhere near the propose site.

 

[30907]

Any buses using the existing park and ride would have to negotiate either Lancaster Rd, Westgate, or the Bay Gateway / Heysham Rd / Promenade. All three routes suffer from congestion, and none provide a suitable ambience for an enviromental day out. A park-n-ride train from Heysham would avoid all that. Station-to-station time would be around ten minutes, whereas a bus from J34 would take 40+

So a car from J34 to Heysham via the Bay Gateway would take how long? I still don't see how this is an advantage.

Having experienced Lancaster-Morecambe traffic pre Gateway I wouldn't dream of using the "old" roads BTW - has to be the A683.

In crayonista mode now: I would locate the Eden car park on the A683 where it crosses the WCML. I would run an independent third line from the present South Junction to a new 1-platform station there - it could be a rear-end like Meridian Water or you could relocate the Morecambe line junction to that point. It would be possible to run a 15-min shuttle using both platforms at Morecambe, though I imagine the residents of Bare would object to their level crossing becoming much busier

 

[randyrippley]

So a car from J34 to Heysham via the Bay Gateway would take how long? I still don't see how this is an advantage.

Around 20 minutes. People would tolerate that additional time in their own cars followed by a short rail shuttle. But not 40+ minutes in a rattley bus

 

[Bletchleyite]

Around 20 minutes. People would tolerate that additional time in their own cars followed by a short rail shuttle. But not 40+ minutes in a rattley bus

Why would it take 40 minutes in a bus with properly designed priority measures?

 

[randyrippley]

In crayonista mode now: I would locate the Eden car park on the A683 where it crosses the WCML. I would run an independent third line from the present South Junction to a new 1-platform station there - it could be a rear-end like Meridian Water or you could relocate the Morecambe line junction to that point. It would be possible to run a 15-min shuttle using both platforms at Morecambe, though I imagine the residents of Bare would object to their level crossing becoming much busier

Cost of retrospectively building a road junction there would be prohibitive, even not taking into account the elevation difference between the road embankment and the boggy fields

Why would it take 40 minutes in a bus with properly designed priority measures?

If it takes me 20 minutes to get to and from J34 each day via the Bay Gateway over a shorter distance, it'll take a lot longer for a bus going a lot further via the town.
And just what "priority measures" do you propose? If any were realistically possible they would have been put in years ago

 

[SouthernR]

In crayonista mode now: I would locate the Eden car park on the A683 where it crosses the WCML. I would run an independent third line from the present South Junction to a new 1-platform station there - it could be a rear-end like Meridian Water or you could relocate the Morecambe line junction to that point. It would be possible to run a 15-min shuttle using both platforms at Morecambe, though I imagine the residents of Bare would object to their level crossing becoming much busier

Before the EPN proposal appeared, I wondered how long it would be before someone suggested a Parkway station next to the Bay Gateway.

 

[Phil56]

So a car from J34 to Heysham via the Bay Gateway would take how long? I still don't see how this is an advantage.

Having experienced Lancaster-Morecambe traffic pre Gateway I wouldn't dream of using the "old" roads BTW - has to be the A683.

In crayonista mode now: I would locate the Eden car park on the A683 where it crosses the WCML. I would run an independent third line from the present South Junction to a new 1-platform station there - it could be a rear-end like Meridian Water or you could relocate the Morecambe line junction to that point. It would be possible to run a 15-min shuttle using both platforms at Morecambe, though I imagine the residents of Bare would object to their level crossing becoming much busier

It's the waiting times at Bare Lane crossing that's the problem. If they didn't close so early, there'd be fewer complaints. Must be one of the longest waits on the network due to the way the line is signalled. Improving the infrastructure would have to be included in any proposal to increase frequency of trains or new station on the line.

 

[SouthernR]

It's the waiting times at Bare Lane crossing that's the problem. If they didn't close so early, there'd be fewer complaints. Must be one of the longest waits on the network due to the way the line is signalled. Improving the infrastructure would have to be included in any proposal to increase frequency of trains or new station on the line.

I wonder how many people miss their train because the barriers came down and they were the wrong side of the line.

Of course, having a new shuttle (Heysham-Morecambe or Parkway-Morecambe) would complicate the signalling to avoid conflicts with boat and flask trains.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Now the footbridge has gone, I wonder how many people miss their train because the barriers came down and they were the wrong side of the line.

Probably not many, as it's a "local station for local people" so people will know about it. It's not a destination.

 

[SouthernR]

Probably not many, as it's a "local station for local people" so people will know about it. It's not a destination.

They might get caught out by the platform. Most trains use platform 1.
(The footbridge was a figment of my imagination!)

 

[6Gman]

Just a little observation on all these ideas of new stations, new tracks, cable cars, park & rides etc etc

The press coverage at the time of planning permission being granted made reference to the project costing some £125M with an indication that they would be seeking £75M of this from government. As far as I can see, little of this £125M is to cover transport infrastructure (presumably it covers P&R improvements and pedestrianisation of the area).

If that is the case who is going to fund any substantial new rail-related works?

 

[30907]

Cost of retrospectively building a road junction there would be prohibitive, even not taking into account the elevation difference between the road embankment and the boggy fields

That's why I was in crayonista mode

If it takes me 20 minutes to get to and from J34 each day via the Bay Gateway over a shorter distance, it'll take a lot longer for a bus going a lot further via the town.

Why are you sending the bus via the town?

 

[chorleyjeff]

It isn't hourly, it is roughly 2tph but on a very messy pattern with no consistency from one hour to the next. Hourly would be a downgrade.

From Morecambe the only hour or more gaps are (other than overnight):
1232-1339
1841-1949

If you can't do exactly half hourly might you be able to do close to it? It is surely easier to path a regular interval service than one that is all over the place. But with typical gaps between 11 and 45 minutes, dropping to hourly would be a definite backward step, to serve what would be a very small market if Liverpool was chosen at least (if Liverpool people want the seaside, they go to West Kirby or Southport).

Southport seaside ?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Southport seaside ?

Not much use for the actual sea if you want a swim (Crosby is better for that) but it does have the whole "seaside town" experience other than that and without being as scabby as Blackpool or as far as Morecambe.