this is apalling (NHS to refuse surgery to the obese and smokers)

[Paule23]

People might be obese because of a medical condition or disabillity.
I'm also convinced that my two unrelated cats with the same diet being fat and thin suggests that a person's DNA can have a big effect on how soon someone becomes obese.

Even if they had mass hamburger eating competitions daily, they need help like everyone else.
This is a savage move by the careless polliticians and bureaucrats.

I'm not sure of any medical condition or disability that makes you obese.

There are some conditions that make it easier to consume excess calories and put on wait, and many disabilities which impact mobility, but a disability does not make you consume more calories than you need.

People have to take a responsibility for their own actions, including the eating, drinking and lack of activity which leads to obesity.


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[DarloRich]

Dawn French was not the same shape that she grew to when she was at the start of her career and money problems had not been one thing to concern her in those days

However recent pictures of her in 2016 shows what can be achieved.

i am not sure of the point you make. That fat people can diet?

I imagine he has a very specific sort of person in mind - those from Benefits Street or some such.

aha! the benefit scum. Burn them. That lard will power the country for weeks.
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I'm not sure of any medical condition or disability that makes you obese.

There are some conditions that make it easier to consume excess calories and put on wait, and many disabilities which impact mobility, but a disability does not make you consume more calories than you need.

People have to take a responsibility for their own actions, including the eating, drinking and lack of activity which leads to obesity.

Actually there are several that need to be ruled out by a Doctor when dealing with someone who is overweight:

Hypothyroidism
Cushings syndrome
Prader-Willi syndrome
Depression ( or more often the medical treatments given to alleivate this)
Polycystic ovary syndrome

but yeah, mainly lazy stupid fat people.

The good thing is that few of these prevent you losing weight and that is a personal choice

 

[richw]

I'm not sure of any medical condition or disability that makes you obese.

There are some conditions that make it easier to consume excess calories and put on wait, and many disabilities which impact mobility, but a disability does not make you consume more calories than you need.

People have to take a responsibility for their own actions, including the eating, drinking and lack of activity which leads to obesity.


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The NHS website disagrees with you on its obesity page.
It lists causes of obesity including the obvious over eating, lack of exercise but also conditions and medicines.
NHS website cites Prader-Willi syndrome, hypothyroidism and Cushing Syndrome. It also lists a number of medications proving to cause weight gain including those to treat epilepsy, diabetes, and some anti depressants.

 

[507021]

I've always been a fan of cooking fresh food in bulk and then freezing it, such as tuna pasta, pasta (or spaghetti) bolognese and sausage casserole. I find over the course of the week it saves so much time, and it also saves a fair bit of money too. There's also far less food waste in my house now I cook food in bulk and then freeze it.

Admittedly until around six months ago, I did eat ready meals a few nights a week, however I decided to start eating home made meals more regularly instead of the easier option of a microwave meal. I feel so much better in myself and I've lost around half a stone as a result of changing my diet.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The good thing is that few of these prevent you losing weight and that is a personal choice

In the end for the vast majority of people, even with those conditions, and even with medication with a side effect of weight gain, if calories in < calories out weight loss *will* still occur.

Where the problem with these conditions/medications occurs is that it takes a *lot* more willpower, particularly if you are inactive, even more so if you are inactive for medical reasons.

 

[Paule23]

The NHS website disagrees with you on its obesity page.

It lists causes of obesity including the obvious over eating, lack of exercise but also conditions and medicines.

NHS website cites Prader-Willi syndrome, hypothyroidism and Cushing Syndrome. It also lists a number of medications proving to cause weight gain including those to treat epilepsy, diabetes, and some anti depressants.

None of these medication or conditions can cause weight gain in isolation. If you weren't eating with the conditions you wouldn't become obese.

I agree there are conditions and medications which make some people more susceptible to obesity, where they can become obese even when eating what would be considered a normal diet and normal amount of exercise. This just means that unfortunately they have to be more careful than the rest of us, but to blame the disease or medication is passing the buck regarding responsibility for their obesity. People are responsible for what they put in their bodies.


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[Bletchleyite]

I agree there are conditions and medications which make some people more susceptible to obesity, where they can become obese even when eating what would be considered a normal diet and normal amount of exercise.

The problem is often what people see as a normal diet, particularly in portion control terms.

While I have a desk job I am otherwise very physically active - far above average - and I'm also a couple of stone overweight. The cause of this is by and large portion control, which is my fault and nobody else's. However, I didn't realise this for quite a long time until I added up what I was actually eating and how much of it - a lot of pasta, rice etc which is very calorie dense. It's healthy food, but I just eat for two, which is taking my daily calorie intake well over the "base" 2500 (though as I'm pretty big and active I could probably manage 3000 and still lose weight, but I reckon I'm eating well above that).

I still do it because I have no willpower, and indeed I'm not *so* heavy that it causes problems per-se, other than that I'd be better at sport if I did. (2 stone is not a big proportion of 18 stone ). But for ages I didn't actually realise that was why.

What I need is smaller bowls and plates to force me to cut portions back a bit. Need to get round to a trip to a certain Swedish shop...

 

[richw]

None of these medication or conditions can cause weight gain in isolation. If you weren't eating with the conditions you wouldn't become obese.

I agree there are conditions and medications which make some people more susceptible to obesity, where they can become obese even when eating what would be considered a normal diet and normal amount of exercise. This just means that unfortunately they have to be more careful than the rest of us, but to blame the disease or medication is passing the buck regarding responsibility for their obesity. People are responsible for what they put in their bodies.


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It's the NHS giving this as a cause of obesity. I will take their viewpoint over yourself sorry.

My local leisure centre does free memberships for gp referrals. I'm not sure what gets a gp referral but the notice caught my eye when I bought my membership. My membership is £9 a week for full unlimited gym and swim membership.

I put on weight when I was doing office work, working 60-70 hours per week as found little time for exercise. I lost most when I stopped working long hours without even trying. Eating the same food etc,
I'm now classified as obese, but had a body test as part of a medical recently, and my muscle mass alone was putting me overweight without any bone or fat mass added on! My muscle mass came out at 87 kg but my 'ideal weight based on height' came out should only be 65-79kg. My waist is 36inch which is near enough what it should be for my height as guidelines are waist should be half height and I'm 70inches tall. I'm well built across shoulders and chest area and that is where most of my weight is.

 

[Paule23]

It's the NHS giving this as a cause of obesity. I will take their viewpoint over yourself sorry

No need to apologise but think it through. How exactly, in isolation, does a disease or medical condition cause obesity? It cannot do this in isolation, but only in conjunction with excess calorie intake. A medical condition can make you predisposed to obesity, but cannot cause it on its own.



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[DarloRich]

No need to apologise but think it through. How exactly, in isolation, does a disease or medical condition cause obesity? It cannot do this in isolation, but only in conjunction with excess calorie intake. A medical condition can make you predisposed to obesity, but cannot cause it on its own.

EDIT - not worth the trouble other than to say that some of these conditions relate to storing and generation of excess fat. However I am sure you know best.

 

[Paule23]

EDIT - not worth the trouble other than to say that some of these conditions relate to storing and generation of excess fat. However I am sure you know best.

Thanks, glad you recognise this.


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[AnonymousUser1]

Who created the commissioning group?

if you want to try that fallacy why haven;t all CCGs made this decision , i also think you might well be served to look at the make up of CCGs ...

 

[GatwickDepress]

There is nothing more depressing than smokers outside of a lung hospital though.

 

[PHILIPE]

There is nothing more depressing than smokers outside of a lung hospital though.

How times have changed. When I was in a Sanatorium in the 60s full of people with lung problems one could smoke on the wards.

 

[DarloRich]

How times have changed. When I was in a Sanatorium in the 60s full of people with lung problems one could smoke on the wards.

it gives you a fine manly voice and will clear up that cough in no time!

 

[fowler9]

I think it is important sometimes to take in to account peoples emotional, societal and mental health problems. Many of these things will lead people to make poor life choices.

Again looking at things another way, my grandparents drank and smoked well in to their 80's (A cliche I know but true) whereas my mum was a nurse and died in her mid 50's after a 6 year battle with cancer and an otherwise healthy lifestyle.

It is all too easy to go on a forum and tell people "I live like X and I can manage so what is wrong with everyone else".

There are many tests that could be done to tell if a life assurance company should insure you. Do we want to go to the extreme and decide if the NHS should bother treating you?

 

[Trog]

Give up rich food, alcohol and women, if you do I don't promise that you will live to 100. But it will certainly seem like it.

 

[Busaholic]

Give up rich food, alcohol and women, if you do I don't promise that you will live to 100. But it will certainly seem like it.

Did Jack Benny not manage to achieve that age without denying himself those pleasures? I'm trying to emulate him, but lack of money and looks is somewhat hindering me, plus my wife doesn't exactly approve.

 

[Clip]

So we are all agreed then - eating healthily and cheaply is possible but some people just cant be bothered?

 

[AlterEgo]

I think it is important sometimes to take in to account peoples emotional, societal and mental health problems. Many of these things will lead people to make poor life choices.

Agreed, but these are still *choices* though, as you correctly state.

 

[Bletchleyite]

So we are all agreed then - eating healthily and cheaply is possible but some people just cant be bothered?

I think that is an entirely fair statement, yes.

 

[PHILIPE]

Re the story, mentioned earlier, of Katrina Percy who was forced to resign from her post as CEO of Southern Health after serious failures and walked who straight into another job created for her. The BBC has now confirmed this was the case and that the job was an additional one advising GPs, and which had not been advertised and that there were no other applicants. The Chairman of the Trust was interviewed on BBC2 this morning and confirmed this but had to have two goes before answering each question with a direct. He was firstly asked if the "created" job existed before her resignation confirming that it didn't but claimed that the additional post was needed to be created. An identical salary of £260,000 pa is being paid and which could have gone to the front line instead of a Trust having to attempt measures such as refusing surgery to obese patients.
The woman should have been SACKED for the failure to investigate a high number of deaths. This sort of behaviour within the higher echelons of the NHS goes unchecked with the Minister seemingly reluctant to interfere. The scandal is going to be the subject of a Panorama programme.

 

[Phil.]

So we are all agreed then - eating healthily and cheaply is possible but some people just cant be bothered?

Spot on. Fat people are fat because they can't be bothered to control their eating habits. Please , no "ah but if you're on medication.....". Sort it, eat less, exercise more. Why should the taxes on my pensions be used to carry out expensive bariatric surgery on someone who has lost control?

 

[Trog]

Re the story, mentioned earlier, of Katrina Percy who was forced to resign from her post as CEO of Southern Health after serious failures and walked who straight into another job created for her. The BBC has now confirmed this was the case and that the job was an additional one advising GPs, and which had not been advertised and that there were no other applicants. The Chairman of the Trust was interviewed on BBC2 this morning and confirmed this but had to have two goes before answering each question with a direct. He was firstly asked if the "created" job existed before her resignation confirming that it didn't but claimed that the additional post was needed to be created. An identical salary of £260,000 pa is being paid and which could have gone to the front line instead of a Trust having to attempt measures such as refusing surgery to obese patients.
The woman should have been SACKED for the failure to investigate a high number of deaths. This sort of behaviour within the higher echelons of the NHS goes unchecked with the Minister seemingly reluctant to interfere. The scandal is going to be the subject of a Panorama programme.

Bear in mind that any story you read in the press about something you know anything about is usually a load of rubbish, and that to get a good story the truth such as it is will probably be presented in such a way as to make the subject of the article look as good or bad as possible. There may be something we have not been told going on, but even so it does smell very fishy.

 

[Tetchytyke]

i also think you might well be served to look at the make up of CCGs ...

If they're like other CCGs I've dealt with, it'll mostly be people called Rupert who couldn't find their own backside with both hands and a map.

Sorry, correction.

It'll mostly be people called Rupert who couldn't find their own backside with both hands and a map, advised by very clever and very devious people from McKinsey, Crapita and PwC, all of whom stand to make huge stacks of cash from the privatisation of the NHS.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

If they're like other CCGs I've dealt with, it'll mostly be people called Rupert who couldn't find their own backside with both hands and a map.

Sorry, correction.

It'll mostly be people called Rupert who couldn't find their own backside with both hands and a map, advised by very clever and very devious people from McKinsey, Crapita and PwC, all of whom stand to make huge stacks of cash from the privatisation of the NHS.

Who is feeling all bitter and twisted this fine sunny Wednesday.?..

 

[TheKnightWho]

Spot on. Fat people are fat because they can't be bothered to control their eating habits. Please , no "ah but if you're on medication.....". Sort it, eat less, exercise more. Why should the taxes on my pensions be used to carry out expensive bariatric surgery on someone who has lost control?

Because we aren't all incredibly miserly and selfish. Not everyone has self-control, and dismissing it as "can't be bothered" is easy when you don't have to cope with depression, malnutrition, poor education, low self-discipline etc.

 

[DarloRich]

Spot on. Fat people are fat because they can't be bothered to control their eating habits. Please , no "ah but if you're on medication.....". Sort it, eat less, exercise more. Why should the taxes on my pensions be used to carry out expensive bariatric surgery on someone who has lost control?

why should the taxes on my earnings be used to repair people who crash thier motorbike or fall off a cliff while climbing or break thier leg playing rugby or treat cancers from smoking or drinking or dementia treatment for elderly people who contribute nothing to society or etc etc etc

:roll:
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If they're like other CCGs I've dealt with, it'll mostly be people called Rupert who couldn't find their own backside with both hands and a map.

Sorry, correction.

It'll mostly be people called Rupert who couldn't find their own backside with both hands and a map, advised by very clever and very devious people from McKinsey, Crapita and PwC, all of whom stand to make huge stacks of cash from the privatisation of the NHS.

correction - the very very clever and very devious people from McKinsey, Crapita and PwC will, it is alleged, provide Rupert with a map to another part of the body and then charge him a fortune for a direction finding solution to help him find his own backside

 

[Arglwydd Golau]

Bear in mind that any story you read in the press about something you know anything about is usually a load of rubbish, and that to get a good story the truth such as it is will probably be presented in such a way as to make the subject of the article look as good or bad as possible. There may be something we have not been told going on, but even so it does smell very fishy.

From my experiences in the NHS it sounds eminently believable.

The NHS website disagrees with you on its obesity page.
It lists causes of obesity including the obvious over eating, lack of exercise but also conditions and medicines.
NHS website cites Prader-Willi syndrome, hypothyroidism and Cushing Syndrome. It also lists a number of medications proving to cause weight gain including those to treat epilepsy, diabetes, and some anti depressants.

I'd been working in the NHS for about twenty years before I heard the word 'bariatric'. Whilst these conditions are there, they are not exactly common. Those of us who are in late middle age will remember a time when it was rare or unusual to see overweight people, especially amongst the young. In each year at school in the 1960's there was, on average, probably one overweight boy or girl in each year. The boy was always nicknamed 'Tank' and generally would play as a prop forward. They weren't unhealthy. I have a complete school photograph from 1969 - only one pupil looks significantly overweight from a total of about 400. I cannot believe that would be the same now.

 

[Phil.]

Because we aren't all incredibly miserly and selfish. Not everyone has self-control, and dismissing it as "can't be bothered" is easy when you don't have to cope with depression, malnutrition, poor education, low self-discipline etc.

Excuses, excuses. Always excuses.