Thrown away ticket, now accused of fare evasion. Advice?

[sakincaid]

Hi,

I travel to college by train every now and again and I always make sure I pay before I board it. On the day of my AS Chem 2 exam I was running a little behind and the train was arriving as I was in the station so I bought a return on the train from the conductor.

On my way home, the conductor of the train checked my tickets and confirmed they were valid tickets and handed them back to me. I had so many of them in my wallet that I thought to myself "You know what? I'm about to get off the train, I don't need them any more and I need to free some space up"... So when I leave the train I throw the tickets away and leave the station. (This is because my station is manned so there is no need for blockades at small stations).

An employee of the company in question approaches me and asks me if I could show him my tickets. Of course I explained to him that I didn't really know I'd need them as I usually don't unless I go to a big station such as Manchester Picadilly and he agreed with me and said it's an easy mistake to make, just make sure I carry them but then said he had to 'report me anyway' which I wasn't too happy about.

Yesterday I received a letter from the Debt Recovery and Prosecutions unit of the company explaining that I need to write to them explaining what happened or I will be either fined or sent a summons. The only problem is that I am terrified of being taken to court and possibly given a bad record (because the burden of proof in civil court cases are 'a balance of probabilities' so basically if it were 51%-49% to them, they would win the case) over money I have paid for.

The mark would also hinder all the work I have done over the past few years to hopefully study medicine as it would show up on eCRB/DBS for the next 5 and a half years.

Does anybody have any advice whether it be similar cases, things I could say to them if I were taken to court or any other general knowledge on the Regulation of Railways Act (1989).



Thanks

 

[yorkie]

How did you pay for the tickets? (if it was by card, there will be a record of the transaction)

I have given you access to our RailUK Fares & Ticketing Guide, you may find Section 10 - Disputes helpful.

Depending on the evidence they have, and what you say in your Statement, they may propose an out of court settlement (which they may refer to as a 'Fixed Penalty' - the use of that term is dubious!) or they may prosecute you, either using the Railway Byelaws (strict liability, non-recordable) or the Regulation of Railways Act (far more serious but they must demonstrate you had intent to avoid payment).

Offences under the Regulation of Railways Act result are recordable offences and a conviction will be disclosed if a CRB check (Standard or Enhanced) is performed.

Offences under the Railway Byelaws are not recordable offences and a conviction should not be disclosed if a CRB check (Standard or Enhanced) is performed.

 

[maniacmartin]

Your comment regarding civil court cases is correct, however TOCs rarely bring a civil case in court. If it does make it to court, then it will be a criminal case under the Railway Byelaws, or the more serious Regulation of Railways Act (brought by the Train Operating Company, not the CPS)

However, if this is the first time that you've been caught, then its likely that this can be settled out of court. If you were on a Penalty Fare train, then it could be a Penalty Fare. If it was Northern Rail, then as they can't issue Penalty Fares, they might offer you a Fixed Penalty Notice, which is an official-sounding term that they made up. Either way, the easiest way to make this go away would be to pay them. It probably won't be more than £100.

As you were unable to produce a ticket, then if they were to prosecute under the Railway Byelaws, its a pretty open and shut case. It's a strict liability offence, so they don't have to prove intent.

 

[island]

While I have sympathy for your situation, failing to show a valid ticket to an authorised person is a criminal offence, and you appear to have committed it.

If you write in and explain the situation, with anything that might tend to prove that you bought a ticket (such as a bank statement if you paid by card; while this doesn't count as absolute proof it would help your situation), you may be let off. What is more likely with Northern Rail, assuming that is the company you travelled with, is that you will be issued a "fixed penalty notice" for £80 plus the fare for your journey that day, payment of which will bring an end to the matter.

Needless to say, the worst thing you could do is put your head in the sand as it won't go away.

 

[Stigy]

As long as you were truthful when questioned, in a worst case scenario they'll proceed to the Magistrates' Court for an offence under Byelaw 18(2) of the National Rail Byelaws (2005). As has been mentioned already, these are criminal matters, not civil ones. Unfortunately for you, all they need to prove in this case is that you couldn't produce a ticket when asked, and that's quite easy as that's the reason they had cause to speak to you in the first place! (note that it's not the fact that they're saying you didn't buy one in the case of this Byelaw, but that you couldn't show one). Railway Byelaws are Strict Liability matters and thus it's a case of you either did it, or you didn't. There's extremely limited defence, if any the majority of the time. These are non-recordable, therefore there's no papertrail if you like, even though they are criminal matters and if found guilty, it's of a criminal offence. In total (including costs etc), a day in court is likely to cost you around £300.

I won't touch on this too much, but if they believed they had enough to charge you with an offence of fare evasion (contrary to s.5(3)a Regulation of Railways Act 1889), this is more serious and is recorded on the Police National Computer (thus a paper-trail as far as employers etc are concerned). From what you've said, I'd say it's unlikely they'd proceed under this legislation.

You're more than likely going to end up meeting their admin costs. It might be up to you to offer these though, so if need be, write them a letter saying you're very sorry and will be more careful in future. Explain the negative effect a conviction could have on your future and ask if they'd consider allowing you to settle the matter by meeting their reasonable admin costs incurred. Most TOCs will settle for a first offence as longs as no more than one offence was evident at the time (such as gobbing off and swearing at staff etc) .

Unfortunately, you are guilty of an offence under Byelaw 18(2), therefore I'd bite the bullet.

Good Luck and let us know what happens!

 

[OhNoAPacer]

When travelling on the cumbrian coast line I see lots of single tickets abandoned (usually stuffed into some crack or another), I even seen people put them in the bins as they get up to leave the train. Whilst it is unlikely that any of the stations are going to be subject to a blockade (well apart from Carlisle occasionally) it would seem that lots of people treat the end of the journey as being when the train arrived at the station. I wonder if a simple 'This ticket must be retained until you leave your final station' or similar might be useful, as I am sure the average, and especially the only occasional, user of railways are not regular readers of the NRCoC and so are inadvertently leaving themselves open to problems. I am now off to contemplate an RPI blockade of Braystones.

 

[jon0844]

I'd have thought it obvious to keep the ticket until leaving railway property, but if people genuinely are doing this then a few posters might help. Wouldn't do any harm.

 

[Urban Gateline]

I'd have thought it obvious to keep the ticket until leaving railway property, but if people genuinely are doing this then a few posters might help. Wouldn't do any harm.

It's not obvious though, as a forum member mentioned above, on the more rural lines sometimes the only checks are those onboard the train, so you can see why many passengers would assume that they can throw away their ticket even before they leave the train! Down south we live in a completely different world of Barriers and Penalty fare schemes and countless RPI station blocks.

 

[transmanche]

I'd have thought it obvious to keep the ticket until leaving railway property, but if people genuinely are doing this then a few posters might help. Wouldn't do any harm.

I notice that since East Coast installed barriers at many stations, there are regular announcements to "keep tickets as automatic barriers are in operation" on approach to stations. I think it might also be included on TPE's PIS.

 

[Bayum]

I notice that since East Coast installed barriers at many stations, there are regular announcements to "keep tickets as automatic barriers are in operation" on approach to stations. I think it might also be included on TPE's PIS.

A lot of trains approaching Leeds have announcements made that tickets must be retained due to their being ticket barriers in operation.

One place that did confuse me when I was younger was Birmingham New Street. Whenever I used to go for my monthly chemo trial, there were always people checking tickets, yet I never remember hearing an announcement like the one above to explain this.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I'd have thought it obvious to keep the ticket until leaving railway property, . . . . .

Finding nothing that makes this requirement apparent to me, I disagree. If a ticket somehow authorised a person to be on Railway property, then the requirement to keep a ticket may have some ground for being considered likely, if not obvious, but it doesn't (with the exception of designated "compulsory ticket areas" at a few stations), it only shows evidence of an entitlment to travel.

In fact, the basis for the requirement to keep the ticket beyond arrival at the destination station seems to come from the 1963 Queens Bench decision in Bremme v Dubery which is not an adequately apparent source to most passengers that I know to lead them to understand the requirement as being 'obvious' : "A person is still travelling on a Railway for the purposes of the Regulation of Railways Act 1889 Section 5 if, after he has alighted from his train and before he passes the ticket barrier . . . . "

I find it very common for passengers to leave their ticket behind having completed their journey in many parts of the country.

 

[causton]

One place that did confuse me when I was younger was Birmingham New Street. Whenever I used to go for my monthly chemo trial, there were always people checking tickets, yet I never remember hearing an announcement like the one above to explain this.

That's cause you can show them anything to get out, a valid ticket, a BiTE card, an Oyster card, one time I just walked straight through and they didn't even ask! (of course when I have done these I have always had valid tickets, usually an LM Great Escape :P )

...but when I went round the country last week I did hear it a few times from guards and the auto announcers. I guess people do forget that they are still liable to checks at the end of their journey too and throw the tickets away, much as they would throw tickets in the 'Used Tickets' bin next to the door of the bus on their way off it!

 

[transmanche]

much as they would throw tickets in the 'Used Tickets' bin next to the door of the bus on their way off it!

Which reminds me; on the T&W Metro the litter bins used to have a sign on them 'No tickets, retain for inspection' (or similar).

 

[Draconian]

I'd have thought it obvious to keep the ticket until leaving railway property, but if people genuinely are doing this then a few posters might help. Wouldn't do any harm.

I've never seen any posters in high street shops advising people to retain their store receipts until leaving the premises and yet the number of passengers who decide that an item weighing a few grams is too tiresome to retain until such time as they have left railway property seems to be ever growing.

I should rephrase that...the number of single young males leaving their tickets on the train seems to be growing.

 

[DeeGee]

I've never seen any posters in high street shops advising people to retain their store receipts until leaving the premises and yet the number of passengers who decide that an item weighing a few grams is too tiresome to retain until such time as they have left railway property seems to be ever growing.

A lot of shops I go into explain that their refund/exchange policy is dependent on the production of a proof of purchase. I keep receipts for valuable goods until I'm sure that I won't be needing to return them. Can't say the same about receipts for a bottle of milk or a Mars bar.

If folk see the train ticket as the same thing - a receipt for payment, then I'm not surprised that many people bin them once they feel that the service (ie their train journey) has been completed. You don't necessarily keep a receipt for a restaurant meal for as long as you keep the receipt for a washing machine.

 

[Oswyntail]

I'd have thought it obvious to keep the ticket until leaving railway property .....

The OP states he was approached after leaving the station.
At what point does a railway employee cease to be authorised to ask for a ticket?

 

[MichaelAMW]

The OP states he was approached after leaving the station.
At what point does a railway employee cease to be authorised to ask for a ticket?

My personal opinion, as in this is what I would actually do in practice, is to note that the Byelaws apply to trains, track and stations, according to their intro. So I'd expect to be free from the Byelaws once I'd left the station, i.e. I wouldn't want to stop and talk to an RPI who wanted me to, but they could come into my house if they had RoRA evidence to discuss.

 

[pemma]

The OP states he was approached after leaving the station.
At what point does a railway employee cease to be authorised to ask for a ticket?

It doesn't seem to be clear what station this happened at. However, I remember another thread where someone claimed Northern contracted G4S staff had been put at Glossop station at the exit and dismissed a ticket-less passenger's claim that they weren't given a chance to buy a ticket either before boarding or on the train because they'd walked past an open ticket office after they'd alighted the train.

 

[jon0844]

Perhaps all tickets should have 'Retain ticket for inspection on or off the train' on them, or similar?

 

[Chris999999]

My personal opinion, as in this is what I would actually do in practice, is to note that the Byelaws apply to trains, track and stations, according to their intro. So I'd expect to be free from the Byelaws once I'd left the station, i.e. I wouldn't want to stop and talk to an RPI who wanted me to, but they could come into my house if they had RoRA evidence to discuss.

It is important to remember that with many stations, even though you have left the station building, you may still be on railway property. They often own the forecourt, the taxi rank, the roads etc

 

[island]

It should not be assumed that RPIs'/BTP's "jurisdiction" or authority ends at the boundary of rail premises.

 

[pinguini]

It should not be assumed that RPIs'/BTP's "jurisdiction" or authority ends at the boundary of rail premises.

So what would an RPI do on a public street?

 

[34D]

So what would an RPI do on a public street?

Probably ask for your name and address?

Keep walking is one strategy that may work

 

[DaveNewcastle]

It is important to remember that with many stations, even though you have left the station building, you may still be on railway property. They often own the forecourt, the taxi rank, the roads etc

It should not be assumed that RPIs'/BTP's "jurisdiction" or authority ends at the boundary of rail premises.

In the decision of the Appeal Court I referred to above (in Bremme v Dubery), the Judges went to some length to define the relevant jurisdiction:

"The expression 'and with intent to avoid payment thereof' must refer to a point in time when the person is still travelling on a railway, and the sole question is: does he cease to 'travel on a railway' when he gets out of the carriage onto the platform, or does he remain a traveller until at any rate he has reached the barrier, or, possibly more logically, until he has left railway premises?
The matter is in a very short compass. It is observed that the Act of 1889 is to be read with the RoRA 1840 onwards, and by the RoRA 1873 S.5 where the term 'railway' is defined as including 'every station, siding, wharfe or dock of or belonging to such railway and used for the purpose of public traffic'.

. . . .

It is sufficient to say that he does not cease to be a traveller when he alights at a platform."​

[Christian Bremme was prosecuted under the Regulation of Railways Act S.5.3 following travel on the London Underground with a ticket costing 6d. The Appeal was heard on 14th November 1963 by Lord Parker LCJ, Winn J and Fenton Atkinson J.]

A Police or other Officer is of course entitled to conduct an investigation in a public or other place.

 

[pemma]

It should not be assumed that RPIs'/BTP's "jurisdiction" or authority ends at the boundary of rail premises.

If you are a suspected fare evader then I agree that they can take action after you have left railway property. However, to confirm you had a valid ticket for a journey you have made is a different matter.

Would a security guard be able to accuse you of shoplifting on the road outside the shop after you have left if the only evidence he/she had was the fact that you didn't still have a receipt on you for the items you had in your bag?

 

[pinguini]

Probably ask for your name and address?

Keep walking is one strategy that may work

They could try asking, but the significant majority of people will treat them in the same way they would treat any other stranger approaching them on the street asking for name & address. Tell them to s*d off and keep on walking.

 

[Llanigraham]

Would a security guard be able to accuse you of shoplifting on the road outside the shop after you have left if the only evidence he/she had was the fact that you didn't still have a receipt on you for the items you had in your bag?

A shop security guard/detective can ONLY stop you after you have left the premises. The Law states that whilst in the shop you still have a chance of paying, even if the goods have been secreted

 

[pemma]

A shop security guard/detective can ONLY stop you after you have left the premises. The Law states that whilst in the shop you still have a chance of paying, even if the goods have been secreted

But are they allowed to perform random checks on people they have no reason for suspect of stealing like RPIs do?

 

[W230]

A shop security guard/detective can ONLY stop you after you have left the premises. The Law states that whilst in the shop you still have a chance of paying, even if the goods have been secreted

Strictly speaking that's not true. The offence of theft is already complete. However, proving mens rea is more difficult if the offender has not left the shop, hence prosecution is unlikely.

But are they allowed to perform random checks on people they have no reason for suspect of stealing like RPIs do?

No, unless it was a condition of entering the shop, which would be unlikely!

I know it isn't the same but some nightclubs will subject patrons to a search as a condition of entry. I assume the RPI situation is a railway condition of use (in effect part of the bylaws)?

 

[pemma]

I know it isn't the same but some nightclubs will subject patrons to a search as a condition of entry. I assume the RPI situation is a railway condition of use (in effect part of the bylaws)?

But then doesn't it need to occur on railway property?