Ticket machines: Why has QWERTY been abandoned?

[deep south]

The QWERTY layout was designed to minimise the chances of two keys hitting each other during fast typing, remember the keys travelled through an "arc" in the way to the paper. I can't remember the last time I actually used a mechanical typewriter...

 

[norbitonflyer]

Especially as typing on TVM is not exactly a high-stakes time-critical environment

It can be if your train is approaching and you are trying to buy tickets for several people with different railcards (SER machines don't even let you buy two tickets both with the same kind of railcard)

 

[Mag_seven]

I think all this is a complete red herring - the QWERTY keyboard is designed to facilitate fast typing for long strings of text. You are extremely unlikely to have to do this on a TVM so I don't think it really matters whether the keyboard is QWERTY or ABC.

 

[BrianW]

There's a lot more to the design of the human-machine interface than the choice of ABC or QWERTY.

For example, the height, size, etc of a keypad, screen etc, the 'angle of attack' (must be a techie word ) of the finger(s), the reading of a code for the ticket, the understanding of ticket types and availability, the number of machines/ size of queue(s); is the word ergonomics? Differing size of humans, including kids, wheelchair accessibility, ...

This thread displays a lot of possibly unwitting unconscious assumptions about 'people (un) like us'. Over time a 'standard' was determined regarding, for instance wc dimensions- is there such for a TVM, or is it 'the (international) market' decides?

I saw a lot of designs by 'Googling'!! Perhaps an opportunity for some research, a PhD study?

Personally, I find 'stabbing' at a screen tiresome, esp needing to constantly correct incorrect input and getting angry with myself and feeling the 'weight' of the queue behind.

I imagine the replacement of QWERTY by ABC, that started this thread, was based on something other than a whim.

 

[Ediswan]

Unlike QWERTY, there is no consistent standard ABC layout. There might be two rows, or three, or four, or five. Or even a hybrid as below. Every machine with ABC is a game of 'spot the layout'.

 

[dosxuk]

I imagine the replacement of QWERTY by ABC that started this thread was based on something other than a whim.

History shows this is unlikely to be the case. There has been significant amounts of design and engineering put into modern software keyboards to make them quick and easy to use. Unfortunately most touchscreen kiosks I've ever used seem to have not only ignored that research, but decided to make their own keyboard from scratch, only adding the features that they can immediately think of.

The decision to go with an ABC layout is most likely down to a product manager going "I think this is easier to use than that computer keyboard layout, everyone knows the alphabet, lets do it this way instead".

Unlike QWERTY, there is no consistent standard ABC layout. There might be two rows, or three, or four, or five. Or even a hybrid as below. Every machine with ABC is a game of 'spot the layout'.

Indeed. While 90%+ people will know an 'M' on a QWERTY layout is on the bottom row near the middle, above the spacebar, 0% know where to find it on the kiosk-of-the-day's layout.

 

[Recessio]

I think the far bigger with ticket machine keyboards (at least the ones used by Southern and SWR) is how crap the touchscreens are. You have to press so hard that you nearly break your fingers, I genuinely don't know how someone eg with arthritis would use it. And sometimes the touchscreen and the buttons are misaligned by as much as an inch, so good luck trying to type a destination no matter the keyboard layout

 

[Boff]

This is complete speculation - but it may have been done to intentionally slow down users.

Anyone used to QWERTY keyboards can learn to type quite fast, but the often slow and unresponsive touchscreens on TVMs can lead to inputs being missed. However, ABC keyboards are pretty much equally unfamiliar to all users, and so force the user to slow down, encouraging them to push firmer and slower. Although, the real issue (as mentioned in the post above) is why the touchscreens are so crap in the first place.

 

[yorkie]

TVMs are very expensive to maintain and are increasingly becoming redundant these days.

I very rarely use one and indeed if all the tickets I want were made available online, as e-tickets, I probably would never use one; many more will no doubt be in a similar position.

This is complete speculation - but it may have been done to intentionally slow down users.

Anyone used to QWERTY keyboards can learn to type quite fast, but the often slow and unresponsive touchscreens on TVMs can lead to inputs being missed. However, ABC keyboards are pretty much equally unfamiliar to all users, and so force the user to slow down, encouraging them to push firmer and slower.

That is very possible, yes.

Although, the real issue (as mentioned in the post above) is why the touchscreens are so crap in the first place.

At a guess, to make them more durable, meaning a loss in sensitivity.

 

[ac6000cw]

I think all this is a complete red herring - the QWERTY keyboard is designed to facilitate fast typing for long strings of text. You are extremely unlikely to have to do this on a TVM so I don't think it really matters whether the keyboard is QWERTY or ABC.

I agree - on the TVMs I used to use (I now primarily use e-Tickets bought via a phone app) the only part that used keyboard entry was entering the first few letters of the destination, beyond that point it was all selecting things using dedicated on-screen buttons.

At a guess, to make them more durable, meaning a loss in sensitivity.

Almost certainly (much thicker glass to withstand vandalism etc.)

 

[Adwy]

Surely the telephone keypad was determined by the allocation of letters to numbers on dials many years before.

Yes, but not the layout of the numbers within the keypad - as in the hasty pic.

How helpful is that? Perhaps as helpful as alphabetical compared to QWERTY I hear you say.

m

 

[Snex]

Stupid decision and very difficult to use as someone who knows a keyboard, heck I'm typing this without looking at all - something I definitely couldn't do with a ABC layout.

For people talking about different layouts for different languages, this is simple to resolve. Just set the keyboard depending on what language they're using the machine in. The different layouts are based upon each countries language so there will be very few German speakers using a QWERTY layout and so on.

I'm also not sure what this has to do with old people either considering typewriters have been using the layout since the late 1800's or thereabouts.

 

[infobleep]

I think all this is a complete red herring - the QWERTY keyboard is designed to facilitate fast typing for long strings of text. You are extremely unlikely to have to do this on a TVM so I don't think it really matters whether the keyboard is QWERTY or ABC.

So have the TMV manufacturers done user test studies with customers to test this out?

Where I work they started doing user testing with members of the public to get feedback.

Some software I use is moving to the cloud, and the company did some proto testing with myself and colleagues to better understand how we work.

 

[ainsworth74]

The thing that tends to throw me is when they present an ABC keyboard but in a faux QWERTY layout (i.e. the letters are across three rows roughly the same size and shape as a QWERTY keyboard). If you're going to give me an ABC display please don't make it appear similar to a QWERTY layout as that just confuses the muscle memory of a lifetime. Otherwise as others have noted because you're not typing very much on a TVM display it doesn't really bother me.

 

[infobleep]

TVMs are very expensive to maintain and are increasingly becoming redundant these days.

I very rarely use one and indeed if all the tickets I want were made available online, as e-tickets, I probably would never use one; many more will no doubt be in a similar position.

Until they allow one to buy e-tickets without a journey planner being involved, I will continue to use TMVs as they are the fastest way for me to buy walk up train tickets.

 

[The exile]

setting the keyboard by language might work in this country, where we have very few additional alphabetical symbols- but isn’t going to work in (say) Germany where, if you set the language to English to understand the instructions you lose the ability to type 4 alphabetical symbols.

 

[renegademaster]

Leaving aside the trope that QWERTY was designed to slow down typists and stop them jamming their typewriters*, I would hazard a guess that it’s to do with programming - it’s quite easy to do a loop and draw buttons for A - Z in a grid, it would be more complicated to do it in a random order like a Qwerty or Dvorak keyboard. Or possibly it’s to differentiate between the User-level interactions with a system and those of a more administrative nature? In any case, I’m fairly sure things developed on the cheap don’t have huge input from UI/UX designers, or those who have to use the system.

*Im told “typewriter” is the longest word it’s possible to spell using only the top line of the keyboard.

It's not hard at all to program, just takes a few minutes of effort.

In fact trying to figure out how to loop through each letter A to Z using the ASCII codes is harder than looking down at your keyboard and typing

let keys = [ "Q","W" .....

 

[Christmas]

Thanks all for your comments, I think that there was never any logic behind making ticket machines ABC, probably just someone thought it might be a good idea. I obviously prefer QWERTY.

What about drivers setting up their details in cabs? Trying to input headcodes and destination codes on an ABC keyboard in a hurry must get people flustered?

What's the set up on conductor machines, or even on booking office screens?

 

[alxndr]

Is there enough space on a TVM screen (especially the older types) to have a QWERTY keyboard without compromising button size? The calibration and responsivity of them means it can often be pretty hard to select the correct letter as it is.

If that's not the reasoning then I have no idea.

 

[DLyle44004]

I would hardly call them 'keyboards' on ticket machines. It is not like you need to type out the whole station on them.
Quicker to slap in the first few letters of your destination and then have the system do the rest (autocomplete station suggestions, etc). ABC is quicker for this.

 

[Bletchleyite]

ABC is quicker for this.

It's not unless you don't often use a computer or mobile device which are all QWERTY.

 

[DLyle44004]

It's not unless you don't often use a computer or mobile device which are all QWERTY.

Which not everyone uses (elderly, disabled, non-English speaking, etc). I am happy to defend QWERTY as the superior all-round typing layout, but for systems like this out in the open ABC works for a broader amount of users.

 

[Purple Train]

I make a point of never using e-tickets, but, nevertheless, I don't think this is much of an issue. On the TVMs I use most regularly (Elizabeth Line), I never usually have to type more than three letters - the rest is button-pushing. Now, admittedly, the exotic and far-away stations I usually travel to have the advantage of usually being reachable with three letters (either using the CRS code or the first three letters), and, if I was, say, a regular traveller with no knowledge of CRS codes wishing to travel to an obscure "Llan-" station in Wales, I might have a different view, but, given there are, I presume, not many people wishing to accomplish such journeys, I think there are bigger fish to fry.

 

[Christmas]

Which not everyone uses (elderly, disabled, non-English speaking, etc). I am happy to defend QWERTY as the superior all-round typing layout, but for systems like this out in the open ABC works for a broader amount of users.

It was already pointed out that the QWERTY layout has been around for the best part of a century. Elderly people would have to be living under a stone never to have encountered it. Disabled people are also well aware of it and I'd say a pretty high proportion of them actually use computers more than non disabled people.

The consensus on this forum looks like it is anti ABC for lots of legitimate and logical reasons. TVM managers take note.

 

[johntea]

My biggest issue isn’t the keyboard layout but the fact most screens seem rather unresponsive to the touch in the first place!

 

[father_jack]

My biggest issue isn’t the keyboard layout but the fact most screens seem rather unresponsive to the touch in the first place!

Use the flat of the finger rather than the tip. The older S & B machines with the sloping screens are particularly poor with the aforementioned.

It was already pointed out that the QWERTY layout has been around for the best part of a century.

Snipped....

APTIS ticket machines in ticket offices which were introduced in 1986 were ABC, just saying.

 

[DLyle44004]

It was already pointed out that the QWERTY layout has been around for the best part of a century. Elderly people would have to be living under a stone never to have encountered it. Disabled people are also well aware of it and I'd say a pretty high proportion of them actually use computers more than non disabled people.

The consensus on this forum looks like it is anti ABC for lots of legitimate and logical reasons. TVM managers take note.

It makes sense on physical keyboards, but if you're a non-English speaking tourist who wants to visit Bodmin Parkway (I know keyboards use QWERTY regardless of language, but the English characters become irrelevant if you're typing in Arabic, Chinese, etc), it is easier to find 'BOD' from an alphabetical layout. It is far less confusing for those with a basic understanding of the English alphabet. ABC is also in use on machines outside of the UK - it is not just UK thing (although admittedly, the RDG's guidelines recommend both). It is a matter of preference rather than poor TVM design.

 

[birchesgreen]

So, the great majority of the British public are familiar with QWERTY but we should use ABC as its easier for foreign tourists? I see, makes sense.

 

[DLyle44004]

So, the great majority of the British public are familiar with QWERTY but we should use ABC as its easier for foreign tourists? I see, makes sense.

The great majority of the British public have also learnt their ABCs (I'd hope).

 

[CyrusWuff]

Snipped....

APTIS ticket machines in ticket offices which were introduced in 1986 were ABC, just saying.

Whilst true, I suspect a significant number of stations rarely used anything other than the "Top 24" keys for selecting destinations.