Ticket Office closures no longer going ahead

[JD2168]

Thankfully these proposed ticket office closures are no longer going ahead. It would have been very difficult for elderly & disabled passengers along with blind people to have used the Train service. Some of the closure locations seemed bizarre with very busy stations being closed.

The machines are frequently breaking down, indeed one row has been unavailable at Sheffield station for around 2 weeks.

 

[alastair]

So reduced opening times could well be a part of this mad plan to make everyone multi - functional station hosts.

But why is it "mad"? At my local GW (Devon) station there are 2 "dispatch" staff (I presume one for each platform) who work on the platform, they appear a few seconds before a train is due and a couple of minutes later after they have dispatched the train, they disappear back in to their office to await the next train which might be 50 mins or more away. At the same time, the ticket office is sometimes closed when the man in there has a break or goes to lunch. Is this really the optimum way to use staff so the customer is best served? Is there any particular reason why all 3 people can't be trained up to sell tickets and dispatch trains and then allocated a job accordingly?

 

[DynamicSpirit]

But why is it "mad"? At my local GW (Devon) station there are 2 "dispatch" staff (I presume one for each platform) who work on the platform, they appear a few seconds before a train is due and a couple of minutes later after they have dispatched the train, they disappear back in to their office to await the next train which might be 50 mins or more away. At the same time, the ticket office is sometimes closed when the man in there has a break or goes to lunch. Is this really the optimum way to use staff so the customer is best served? Is there any particular reason why all 3 people can't be trained up to sell tickets and dispatch trains and then allocated a job accordingly?

I agree with you that having people multi-skilled makes for a much better use of resources. In that particular example you cite though, I suspect there's a problem: The time when the dispatchers are required to go to the platform to dispatch a train is presumably going to be exactly the time when latecomers will be desperately arriving at the ticket office wanting to get their ticket asap. I suspect in this kind of situation, you'd need to add further skills or tasks to fill in the dead time. Do station maintenance? Do customer service to other locations via video link?

 

[Backroom_boy]

So I remember about 15 years ago there was a campaign to save the cheque. Cheques were duly saved but you try using one now.

This has just delayed things by about 5 years

 

[Cricketer8for9]

If I wanted to study for Mastermind I’d get a job at a ticket office at a suburban London station. I can sit at my local station waiting for a high peak train to arrive and hardly anyone will buy a ticket. And that’s at 7:30 am. The office is still open and even quieter at 7:30 pm.

 

[Bletchleyite]

So I remember about 15 years ago there was a campaign to save the cheque. Cheques were duly saved but you try using one now.

This has just delayed things by about 5 years

It's no bad thing if it's got rid of such a ridiculous proposal, even if it just means a more sensible one (e.g. closing most Category E and F1/2 booking offices but keeping the others) pops up in a few years' time.

 

[Krokodil]

If I wanted to study for Mastermind I’d get a job at a ticket office at a suburban London station. I can sit at my local station waiting for a high peak train to arrive and hardly anyone will buy a ticket. And that’s at 7:30 am. The office is still open and even quieter at 7:30 pm.

Contrary to the commonly-held view in Whitehall, most of the country isn't like the NSE area.

 

[trainJam]

Over 80% of train tickets *aren't* bought from the ticket office now - at what point would you say a ticket office is no longer required ?

When TVMs can do most (if not all or perhaps by way of a staff mode (like a self-checkout) or remote call 24/7) of the functions a ticket office can do, or when fares are simplified.

e.g. The ability to buy the ticket you need without an itinerary - this could be during disruption (no itinerary offered but there is still a way to get there), or to reject some TOCs "compulsory reservation" policies or just to get a slower route which is not offered on some of the newer TVMs (but is possible on older ones).

Just make the TVMs more usable for some passengers, I was at Birmingham New Street yesterday around 09:25, queue for the ticket office was out of the door with the bank of TVMs available [where thankfully I could buy a Daytripper in under a minute as I'm getting used to the layout of those TVMs]

Can't buy a West Midlands [One Adult] Day Ranger though. I agree - improving TVMs would reduce the need for the ticket office whilst maintaining the ability to buy on the railway, for those who need to. The BHM ones have a good PlusBus offering as well.

 

[WatcherZero]

Government went about it the wrong way really, if they had proposed this after fare simplification rather than before it might have got through.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Great example of people power rising up against the machines. Expect this to be seen as pivotal in the fight against AI taking over jobs.

 

[camflyer]

I agree with you that having people multi-skilled makes for a much better use of resources. In that particular example you cite though, I suspect there's a problem: The time when the dispatchers are required to go to the platform to dispatch a train is presumably going to be exactly the time when latecomers will be desperately arriving at the ticket office wanting to get their ticket asap. I suspect in this kind of situation, you'd need to add further skills or tasks to fill in the dead time. Do station maintenance? Do customer service to other locations via video link?

Sell coffees? The Unions would love that.

The proposal was too big and too quick but there is no doubt that the way the sector is headed is for fewer ticket offices. It will just be done on a case by case basis than a national programme.

 

[jon0844]

So I remember about 15 years ago there was a campaign to save the cheque. Cheques were duly saved but you try using one now.

This has just delayed things by about 5 years

There are perhaps two points:

1 - Yes, it was premature to attempt to remove ticket offices when ticketing is still a minefield and work is underway to improve ticketing options, smartcards, contactless etc - there's LOADS more work and investment needed for that.

2 - Ticket offices weren't saved just because people complained that they wanted to buy tickets from a real person, it was because they're a known source of information and assistance rather than searching around the station for someone in a hi-vis that may or may not be able to help you (is it platform staff, is it revenue, is it a driver, is it Network Rail, is it some random worker for another company in an orange hi-vis...). Disabled groups rightly focussed on that, and that will still be true in five years, ten years, fifteen.. at least as long as we want to make rail travel truly accessible*.

* Or we rebuild all platforms and introduce rolling stock with level access everywhere... a great aspiration, but the industry is trying to save money.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Sell coffees? The Unions would love that.

I mentioned Whitehaven above...that has a ticket office and a rubbish Maxpax style coffee machine. The one time I've travelled from there (rather than through it) I used both, and was pretty convinced I'd have preferred a TVM and a decent coffee place. Though maybe the fairly traditional approach to life round there would mean tea would be preferred by most.

Combining the two doesn't work very well. You'd think it would, but in reality Mtogo, which is the one example of actually doing that, is a bad convenience store (the Sainsburys right outside is far better) and a bad ticket office (because it being both means longer queues), and the staff are far costlier than shop workers so staffing it up isn't really workable.

 

[jon0844]

Great example of people power rising up against the machines. Expect this to be seen as pivotal in the fight against AI taking over jobs.

Not when Rishi wants to hero worship Elon Musk, perhaps the worst person on earth to get involved with for things like AI.

(Edit: I read that back and realised it isn't exactly clear who I was referring to when saying worst person on earth, but IMO both work).

 

[Wolfie]

Sell coffees? The Unions would love that.

The proposal was too big and too quick but there is no doubt that the way the sector is headed is for fewer ticket offices. It will just be done on a case by case basis than a national programme.

Fewer ticket offices with shorter hours methinks....

 

[Killingworth]

I note Northern were suggesting they'd have 4,000 local outlets selling tickets. "retailing via c.4000 local outlets (but understand it is not likely, at least initially, that they would offer the full product range)"

I can't see that working, the very thought's enough to drive most to a TVM or app. The numbers of customers actually buying at these hypothetical outlets would bring so little business that they'd be almost guaranteed not to know much about what they were doing. 4000 works out at roughly 8 per Northern station, including those currently unmanned - like Acklington averaging less than 1 passenger a day.

I can't think of any retailer within a mile of my local busy but unmanned station that would be keen to get involved, or many who would buy if they did. And users of all those unmanned stations are used to managing without ticket offices anyway.

 

[Mikey C]

I bet there are some long serving ticket office staff who are close to retirement age being a bit unhappy as they would hoping to maybe get a nice payout when made redundant before 'retiring'.

Some of the arguments which were put forward that those unstaffed stations when the ticket office closes will suddenly become crime hotspots were a bit over the time. Some stations already are fully unstaffed or unstaffed after a certain time (i.e after 7pm when the ticket office closes + other station staff finish) which are not crime hotspots.

Just make the TVMs more usable for some passengers, I was at Birmingham New Street yesterday around 09:25, queue for the ticket office was out of the door with the bank of TVMs available [where thankfully I could buy a Daytripper in under a minute as I'm getting used to the layout of those TVMs]

While Paddington for example seems to have far fewer TVMs than it used to have

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Nearest LNER stations to Berwick are Edinburgh Waverley and Newcastle, 60 miles each way. Dunbar is managed by ScotRail.

Why does it matter who manages the station? A ticket office is a ticket office which sells a full range of products for the National Network.

 

[AlastairFraser]

My only fear is what will the DfT come up with next to try and cut costs/raise revenue. Further hikes in car park charges?

Hikes in car park charges wouldn't be a bad idea in certain areas.
In some suburban and most rural areas, the car is a necessity and charging more would be unfair.

However, stations like Manchester Piccadilly could have a price hike without detriment to the vast majority of passengers. Traffic in central Manchester is horrendous sometimes, so a potential decrease in traffic is always a good thing there, and there's still cheaper parking for people with no choice (£12 for 24 hours, as opposed to £21 currently in the station car park) about a 5 min walk away in the Bloom St car park by the coach station.

I'd do the same thing with Liverpool Lime St, Birmingham Snow Hill, Watford Junction, Southampton Central etc..
To protect disabled people, you could freeze prices for those with a Blue Badge.

 

[railfan99]

Well, the latest email sent to staff from the GTR Customer Services Director (sent this morning) strongly suggests they are looking at other ways of implementing changes without actually closing ticket offices - for example, their mad plan to make everyone multi-functional station hosts.

So I doubt this is actually the end of the matter as far as the TOCs are concerned.

But if TOCs essentially receive funding for ticket office staff, and the Government (no less) has said these facilities will remain open, wouldn't the TOCs find like difficult with the DfT if they engaged in subterfuge?

And what about the c.750,000 who signed some sort of petition? Most would be rail users.

 

[JamieL]

ah, so youre the one with the magic money tree!

No, its the Tories that have the magic money tree (but it only serves their donors).

 

[Chriso]

Well, the latest email sent to staff from the GTR Customer Services Director (sent this morning) strongly suggests they are looking at other ways of implementing changes without actually closing ticket offices - for example, their mad plan to make everyone multi-functional station hosts.

So I doubt this is actually the end of the matter as far as the TOCs are concerned.

I believe after a massively unsuccessful trial a few years back at Enfield Chase & a couple of other unfortunate places the multi host idea was scrapped before this nonsense Gov idea

You only have to see on the suburban sections of the tube that getting the ticket man out of the office on to the shop floor just results in the staff member staying in the office not doing very much. My local station been a perfect example

 

[Djgr]

Expect a lot more of these gestures over the next twelve months as the "government" appeals to the gullible and the Mensa dodgers.

 

[camflyer]

I note Northern were suggesting they'd have 4,000 local outlets selling tickets. "retailing via c.4000 local outlets (but understand it is not likely, at least initially, that they would offer the full product range)"

I can't see that working, the very thought's enough to drive most to a TVM or app. The numbers of customers actually buying at these hypothetical outlets would bring so little business that they'd be almost guaranteed not to know much about what they were doing. 4000 works out at roughly 8 per Northern station, including those currently unmanned - like Acklington averaging less than 1 passenger a day.

I can't think of any retailer within a mile of my local busy but unmanned station that would be keen to get involved, or many who would buy if they did. And users of all those unmanned stations are used to managing without ticket offices anyway.

I can remember having to go to the Thomas Cook on our high street to buy advance rail tickets in the 80s as our local station didn't have a ticket office.

 

[bramling]

Expect a lot more of these gestures over the next twelve months as the "government" appeals to the gullible and the Mensa dodgers.

My MP has splurged all over Facebook about how the government has stepped in to stop the rail companies closing ticket offices. The sheer nerve of it. Needless to say I added a comment stating reality, though by the look of it no one believed him anyway.

I don’t think they are going to be winning the next election somehow, though a landslide for the other lot isn’t good news either.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Nearest LNER stations to Berwick are Edinburgh Waverley and Newcastle, 60 miles each way. Dunbar is managed by ScotRail.

But sells a full range of tickets for any TOC does it not? Is Edinburgh really a LNER station either?

 

[Cricketer8for9]

Contrary to the commonly-held view in Whitehall, most of the country isn't like the NSE area.

Then the point is to create a better ticketing system which allows contactless for the majority of journeys not perpetuate one which requires paper tickets for intra-regional journeys.

While Paddington for example seems to have far fewer TVMs than it used to have

Because journeys all the way to Reading can be done on your phone or bank card.

 

[800001]

But sells a full range of tickets for any TOC does it not? Is Edinburgh really a LNER station either?

Yes Dunbar should sell exactly the same products as any other ticket office.

Edinburgh is a Network rail station with an LNER ticket office.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The banks achieved their primary goal (automating payments) while still making provision for those who can't / won't use computers.

Its going to be interesting to see how automation is opposed in the next few years because the excuse of elderly people won't last too much longer. Already most people drawing a state pension where working during some part of the 2000s and should have been exposed to some modern technology. By 2030 people who genuinely can't use a computer, smart phone or TVM will be either extremely elderly or severely disabled. It would be cheaper to run an honesty system for those groups and hope they pay at a gate line or on board than pay for a thousand stations to be staffed unnecessarily.

Or just, as TfL does, to give them free travel entirely.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Yes Dunbar should sell exactly the same products as any other ticket office.

Edinburgh is a Network rail station with LNER and ScotRal ticket offices.

Fixed that for you