Joe Paxton
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SWT introduced Parkeon TVMs that did just this. I think SWR have since discontinued them.
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Ticket Vending Machine (TVM) ideas
- Thread starter Wallsendmag
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SWT introduced Parkeon TVMs that did just this. I think SWR have since discontinued them.
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alistairlees
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TVMs were originally introduced as "queue busters" - anyone remember "quickfare"? Quickfare had an array of buttons on it - no touch screen! - and you simply pressed a button to get a ticket to the place you wanted to go from (you could not select another origin). I think you could also select 'single' or 'return' - I don't think there were 'peak' and 'off-peak' fares as we know it know, back then. I think all tickets were only for 'today' as well.
So it might look antiquated / dated now; but it did the job - and quickly! (Also, everyone was paying by cash then).
Since then, there has been mission creep. For some reason, some people want TVMs to be: journey planners; places to make reservations (both when you buy your tickets, and later); places to collect tickets bought on the internet; real time info points; able to sell all possible tickets (like rovers and rangers); places to top up smartcards, and see smartcard balances and journey histories; somewhere to buy tickets for tomorrow, or another day; somewhere to buy tickets from another station (or boundary); able to show valid routes and restrictions for tickets, including both ones you are considering buying, and ones that you have bought (e.g. by scanning a barcode); etc. etc.
All of this makes TVMs massively more complex, expensive and user-unfriendly (both to people using them; and to people in the queue behind them). There's now over 5,000 TVMs on the network. At an average cost of £20k, that's £100m of kit. Yes, really. And there's also the annual cost of maintaining these, updating software, etc.
Really, we should just go back to basics:
1. Buy a ticket for travel now (from here) (with the most-frequently used tickets available as "quick buy")
2. Buy a ticket for travel tomorrow (from here) or for today / tomorrow (from somewhere else, e.g. a boundary zone or other station)
I'd like to see appropriate itineraries displayed / printed with tickets.
Everyting else, including ToD, smartcard stuff, journey planning, rovers / rangers and other specialist tickets, season tickets (maybe except for weekly passes that shouldn't need photocards), logging in to your account, etc. should just be binned. They are all done better at ticket offices, or online (or both), or will die out shortly anyway (ToD), and aren't needed on TVMs.
A complete sorting out of the ticketing structure woudn't go amiss either, but it's not a precursor to this. It would just make it easier.
The industry could then save itself £50m or more when it comes to renewal of TVMs, as well as making customers happier, improving PR, and reducing indirect / difficult to measure costs (like refunds, conflicts between passengers and on train staff, etc.).
So it might look antiquated / dated now; but it did the job - and quickly! (Also, everyone was paying by cash then).
Since then, there has been mission creep. For some reason, some people want TVMs to be: journey planners; places to make reservations (both when you buy your tickets, and later); places to collect tickets bought on the internet; real time info points; able to sell all possible tickets (like rovers and rangers); places to top up smartcards, and see smartcard balances and journey histories; somewhere to buy tickets for tomorrow, or another day; somewhere to buy tickets from another station (or boundary); able to show valid routes and restrictions for tickets, including both ones you are considering buying, and ones that you have bought (e.g. by scanning a barcode); etc. etc.
All of this makes TVMs massively more complex, expensive and user-unfriendly (both to people using them; and to people in the queue behind them). There's now over 5,000 TVMs on the network. At an average cost of £20k, that's £100m of kit. Yes, really. And there's also the annual cost of maintaining these, updating software, etc.
Really, we should just go back to basics:
1. Buy a ticket for travel now (from here) (with the most-frequently used tickets available as "quick buy")
2. Buy a ticket for travel tomorrow (from here) or for today / tomorrow (from somewhere else, e.g. a boundary zone or other station)
I'd like to see appropriate itineraries displayed / printed with tickets.
Everyting else, including ToD, smartcard stuff, journey planning, rovers / rangers and other specialist tickets, season tickets (maybe except for weekly passes that shouldn't need photocards), logging in to your account, etc. should just be binned. They are all done better at ticket offices, or online (or both), or will die out shortly anyway (ToD), and aren't needed on TVMs.
A complete sorting out of the ticketing structure woudn't go amiss either, but it's not a precursor to this. It would just make it easier.
The industry could then save itself £50m or more when it comes to renewal of TVMs, as well as making customers happier, improving PR, and reducing indirect / difficult to measure costs (like refunds, conflicts between passengers and on train staff, etc.).
The "some reason" is that TVMs have been replacing booking offices, and they're going to be replacing yet more to come.
The problem is that the rail industry has taken advantage of the advent of TVMs to introduce Penalty Fares and scrap "buy on board" policies in more and more places. Whilst you could do all of the above, it would increase the number of scenarios where a passenger could legitimately say "I couldn't get the ticket I needed", which then creates more confusion about "inconsistent" rules again.
And that is apart from the fact that TVMs have been used as justification (quite rightfully in some cases) for the closure of ticket offices. The online provision of ticket selling needs to drastically improve - with excesses, refunds and reservations made much more easy to obtain - before that can be considered an acceptable alternative to a ticket office for most people.
Deafdoggie
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Times change. We now have peak, off-peak, super off-peak. We now have less ticket offices, and less windows at the ticket offices that remain. TOCs want people to have tickets before they travel & to not have the excuse of "couldn't get the ticket I wanted" so TVMs have to do more.
Actually, QuickFare machines did have the facility to offer off peak fares (such as "cheap day return" as was). They didn't have separate buttons, though; the machine simply changed over to the lower fare when the last peak train left. They also sold season tickets.
Of course if you didn't want one of the destinations the machine had, then you had to resort to a booking office or train guard. Wikipedia notes that Portslade station (between Brighton and Shoreham) had a machine that offered Wimbledon but not Fishersgate, the next station down the line.
Dai Corner
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I've started a new thread to discuss and reminisce about early TVMs
www.railforums.co.uk
Early Ticket Vending Machines (TVMs)
I've started this thread to save the one this post is from going too off-topic Original thread https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/ticket-vending-machine-tvm-ideas.226889/page-2 Actually, QuickFare machines did have the facility to offer off peak fares (such as "cheap day return" as was)...
www.railforums.co.uk
By 'some people' you presumably mean the people who have been running the railways and the TOCs. I'm sure they haven't been laying awake at night worrying about 'mission creep', or the cost of each individual machine. Meanwhile the consequent reductions in station and on-board staff are just as welcome to most passengers and rail staff as the proliferation of self-serve tills is to supermarket customers and staff.
I second this. Also I find the Swiss ticket machines to be slightly easier to use than German ones though I can't put my finger on exactly what is better, maybe they are slightly more ergonomical and feel more sturdy and responsive (I've made DB machines crash or time out before).
TOD may be on the way out but there needs to be a way to print an eticket from a code.
Haywain
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There is a way to print an eTicket - on a printer at your home or workplace - but it doesn't need to be printed.
PeterY
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The biggest problem I have with TVM's is the LNWR machines at Hemel Hempstead. Before I buy a ticket, I need to get my reading glasses out because the screens are too small to read. especially the intructions on the card payment screen. .
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I agree with the OP, the idea would be that you can, even if you have lost everything, log into your railway account at a TVM and reprint. Why not offer that kind of good customer service?
The aim has to be that one can access one's single railway ticket account at any point of sale and carry out all possible activities.
How much do you think it costs to run a ticket office?
I can't seem to quickly find a salary for ticket office staff, but https://northern.engageats.co.uk/Vi...qlhjw+TbKZy0VxApvpCs70h7wMPh3XiJwxD2f3eqKEgXW says £20,410 per annum rising to £24,011 per annum for a 35 hour per week customer service assistant.
Maybe if you run a mornings-only ticket office you can get away with only one staff member, but if you want to run a ticket office that is closer to full time then you are probablly going to need at least 3, and then you have buildings and equipment costs on top of that.
Suddenly even £20K for a TVM looks pretty cheap in comparison.
Dai Corner
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How about a common feature set and user interface across them all, regardless of manufacturer and operator?
Haywain
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The research we carried out before the introduction of our current TVM fleet revealed that people were not at all keen on the idea of being able to log in to their accounts on a TVM.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I bet if they rocked up to the station having lost/broken their phone and unable to otherwise access their e-ticket they would think differently. Or at least they'd want the booking office to be able to do a reprint for them, or change their existing ticket or reservation, or whatever.
I think people would have an issue with having to log into their account on a TVM, but that's not the same thing.
Haywain
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Because it adds to costs - each manufacturer has written software to govern the operation of the machine and will charge for integration of someone else's front end as much as they do for their own. The provider of the front end software then has to be paid separately. They will then, collectively, cost a lot more for updates and enhancements.
Having to log in wasn't what we looked at.
Llanigraham
On Moderation
But that presumes you are buying your ticket from a railway run account. Are you suggesting that the likes of RedSpottedHanky or Trainsplit or any of the other independent sellers would also be included into this system, or that if I buy tickets form TfW the info should be available from say Avanti too?
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Worth it, though. In Switzerland every single TVM has the same user interface, and it's great.
Wallsendmag
Established Member
That's not much
py_megapixel
Established Member
If that comes from your back-end statistics about which screen tickets are bought from, then there is a subtle but important distinction to be made here. The ticket a customer ended up buying is not necessarily the one they actually wanted.
For example, you mentioned that my idea in the previous post could result in cheaper fares being hidden. But I don't think the "common tickets" section will ever show an Advance fare, as this screen bypasses the journey planner and sends you straight to the payment screen - so there are likely to be passengers who would perfectly happily tie themselves to a particular train and pay the Advance fare, but because that wasn't an option presented to them and several other options for their destination were, they assumed that was the only one.
Surely the focus should be on making the 'standard' procedure as streamlined as possible - not building something clunky and then adding things in front so people don't have to use it.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
And that's where my favouring of the UI of the Avanti iPad app comes in - it is fairly slick even if you use the journey planner, and the use of the planner results in just one additional tap over not doing.
Mainline421
Member
Quite, Eurostar have already solved this you can just use the booking ref to print a copy of the ticket at a TVM. SNCF and NS have similar systems.
I don't have a printer anymore and at least a few times a year end up traveling while my phone is dead (usually on long distance journeys such as LNER), thankfully at the moment as I just use CCSTs purchased at the station this isn't a problem, but it shouldn't be for anyone who has paid.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
There should, under GBR, be a single official retailer for the railway, sold via the nationalrail.co.uk site (or another one). Having one per TOC is a waste of money. To be honest even under the old franchised structure I took the view that ticketing sales, booking offices etc should have been under Railtrack, not TOCs, with them operating all stations.
What third party sites like Trainline and Trainsplit do is up to them, they could contract in if their customers demanded it, or not if they found the reduced utility was acceptable.
Llanigraham
On Moderation
Really?
And you think that will make life easier? If I read that correctly you are saying there would be no ticket offices and everyone will have to buy from an App?
Or are you proposing that every station will have one of these complicated vending machines? If not, how will people get their tickets?
I know plenty of people who have a problem with the current simple machines, how on earth they are going to cope something with more questions and options I do wonder.
As I said earlier I thought the idea was to make ticket buying and train travel easier for Joe Public but all I am seeing is railway (and computer) geeks making the whole thing massively complicated.
I would love it if all tickets were all recorded in the same database with a unique booking ref regardless of how / where you buy it like the airlines.
If you book at a ticket office or TVM; simply print a standardised, professionally formatted ticket on receipt roll with an Aztec code, if you book online; you have the option to show on your phone, print at home, or print at a TVM using the booking ref or by logging into your account. I know some of these options are available now but they are mutually exclusive; you can’t print at at TVM and have an electronic copy on your phone for instance.
If you book at a ticket office or TVM; simply print a standardised, professionally formatted ticket on receipt roll with an Aztec code, if you book online; you have the option to show on your phone, print at home, or print at a TVM using the booking ref or by logging into your account. I know some of these options are available now but they are mutually exclusive; you can’t print at at TVM and have an electronic copy on your phone for instance.
The underlying phenomenon here is that the point of TVMs has changed.
There has been a clear shift since then to increase the number of functions, partially because technology now allows for that, partially because customers now expect ICT to be able to do more things, and partially to try and replace ticket offices. This introduction of complexity into the machines means that there is more variation in how they might function, and hence more possibilities for getting it right or wrong! Increasingly, it seems to me that casual ticket-purchases are now much more likely to be via phone or smartcard, such that TVMs are likely to need to move more and more down the route of providing these complex functions, if they are to stay useful.
I agree, then, with those who've said that TVMs should probably present the user with a small number of options upfront, one of which directs customers to simpler 'conventional' TVM modes that focus on selling an off-peak return to your nearest big city, and the others which direct to more advanced or journey planning modes. Something like 'collect'; 'travel today'; 'future travel'; 'seasons and passes' and 'other'. Collect speaks for itself; travel today takes you to a 'conventional' TVM with common destinations and ticket types highlighted, but the option to find others and to journey-plan if needed; future travel takes you directly into a more journey-planner style interface (of the style the current LNER TVMs default to); seasons and passes speaks for itself, on a more advanced TVM it may even include the option to look up differnt types of regional passes, rovers, rangers etc,; and 'Other' would include a much wider range of options, including changing starting stations, etc...
I know the OP works for LNER and my bugbear with their TVMs at the moment is a lack of flexibility. If they are to replicate ticket offices, they should be able to do what ticket offices did and they should allow passengers to buy the tickets that they want. When I last used one (November I think?) the TVM forced me to select a train for my outgoing ticket, despite me wanting a flexible ticket, and it wouldn't let me choose the train due to leave in 4 minutes time as reservations close 5 minutes before depature, but I was at a smaller station where the TVM was less than 30 seconds walk to the platform I was using. The result was that I had to select a train I had no intention of catching, creating a reservation on that service that I had no intention of using. In this instance there was no price difference between the two trains, but on other occaisons, there would have been. The result is that I've stopped using TVMs to buy my tickets for immediate travel. Maybe that's the desire - maybe they want customers to move to Apps? - but it doesn't seem user friendly.
And until about 5 years ago this was still their primary function: to quickly sell tickets valid for immediate travel, or to allow prebooked tickets to be collected. There may have been different interfaces and orders of menus, but the purpose and use of TVMs up and down the country were broadly the same.
There has been a clear shift since then to increase the number of functions, partially because technology now allows for that, partially because customers now expect ICT to be able to do more things, and partially to try and replace ticket offices. This introduction of complexity into the machines means that there is more variation in how they might function, and hence more possibilities for getting it right or wrong! Increasingly, it seems to me that casual ticket-purchases are now much more likely to be via phone or smartcard, such that TVMs are likely to need to move more and more down the route of providing these complex functions, if they are to stay useful.
I agree, then, with those who've said that TVMs should probably present the user with a small number of options upfront, one of which directs customers to simpler 'conventional' TVM modes that focus on selling an off-peak return to your nearest big city, and the others which direct to more advanced or journey planning modes. Something like 'collect'; 'travel today'; 'future travel'; 'seasons and passes' and 'other'. Collect speaks for itself; travel today takes you to a 'conventional' TVM with common destinations and ticket types highlighted, but the option to find others and to journey-plan if needed; future travel takes you directly into a more journey-planner style interface (of the style the current LNER TVMs default to); seasons and passes speaks for itself, on a more advanced TVM it may even include the option to look up differnt types of regional passes, rovers, rangers etc,; and 'Other' would include a much wider range of options, including changing starting stations, etc...
I know the OP works for LNER and my bugbear with their TVMs at the moment is a lack of flexibility. If they are to replicate ticket offices, they should be able to do what ticket offices did and they should allow passengers to buy the tickets that they want. When I last used one (November I think?) the TVM forced me to select a train for my outgoing ticket, despite me wanting a flexible ticket, and it wouldn't let me choose the train due to leave in 4 minutes time as reservations close 5 minutes before depature, but I was at a smaller station where the TVM was less than 30 seconds walk to the platform I was using. The result was that I had to select a train I had no intention of catching, creating a reservation on that service that I had no intention of using. In this instance there was no price difference between the two trains, but on other occaisons, there would have been. The result is that I've stopped using TVMs to buy my tickets for immediate travel. Maybe that's the desire - maybe they want customers to move to Apps? - but it doesn't seem user friendly.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
This issue is caused by pseudocompulsory reservations. However, you could argue that it does make sense to stop ticket sales a period of time before departure because it reduces a safety issue of people running for trains.
However what they do need to take into account is delays - if the train is half an hour late, people will still want tickets for it.
A little late to adding my thoughts to this.
Overall it needs to be much easier than many machines currently are. Or at least have the option of being simple whilst still offering advanced features. A simple day return i tried to get from a Northern TVM the other day took nearly 4 minutes and printed 9 pieces of card as it needed to book me counted place on their services and seats on LNER. I appreciate part of that is based on the outright farce that is compulsory reservations from LNER but that only accounted for 2 of the 9.
I fully support the ability to
I consider TVMs priority is not for people like me, and many people who have already contributed to this thread as we have a bit more knowledge than many passengers, so the primary focus MUST be on providing the necessary services to the majority of regular passengers above quirky little things for rail enthusiasts to save 14p.
As such i'd propose a menu structure that focusses on simple ticket purchases with further accessible menus for advanced options. @py_megapixel outlines some of these things really really well and many of the following will likely be similar to their suggestions.
* Collecting Tickets.
I think ToD isn't something we need to focus too much on, it will be less used as e-tickets take over, but it doesn't mean it isn't necessary, the current system appears to work. Yes we could improve by printing multiple sets in one transaction but there isn't really a way to save on entering TOD numbers so the time saved if the menu system is fast and easy isn't huge.
*Buying Tickets.
I think others have summed it up nicely. Simple ability to buy a flexible ticket between origin (automatically inputted as current station but can be edited) and destination. Restrictions on route, timing, operator marked CLEARLY AT EVERY STAGE.
If selecting a return, a further option could be "today" / "Within 30 days (including today)" / "specific date and time" with unavailable options greyed out if for example no period returns or no day returns are available for that flow. This lends itself to educating people about the differences.
When buying a restricted ticket a pop up reminding of the restrictions "Reminder : The ticket you have selected is only valid for Trains passing through or calling at Doncaster" with an option to choose a different ticket at this point would be helpful.
*Advanced options for buying tickets.
The ability to select specific services, the ability to reserve seats, etc. When using this, booking advance singles would display an appropriate warning telling customers that their ticket is ONLY valid on the specified trains etc.
*Excessing a ticket.
Scanning a barcode from a paper ticket or e-ticket printed or displayed electronically could show the current ticket, it could show common excesses, (Any permitted from a via Reading ticket) and the associated cost. This could be selected and followed like a regular transaction and an excess be printed. I assume the original ticket in the system could also be marked as "excessed to....." but this wouldn't be necessary with a printed excess.
*Timetabling / Itinerary :
Scan your ticket (or enter a destination) and it can generate a series of valid itineraries to your ticketed destination which you could choose to print or just view on the screen. Whilst it could automatically display the next services the times could be adjustable so you could arrive at Meadowhall and scan your return to work out which train you need to leave on before you leave the station to shop.
Timetables from that station could also be displayed, infact timetables for any service ought to be easily accessible.
Scanning your ticket at a connecting station could show you if the next train is delayed and offer a new itinerary.
Other things to think about.
*Offering e-tickets to your phone by entering an e-mail address or preferably by scanning a code produced in an app by your phone so it has your account details with the option to give you a printed copy too.
*Ability to print or reprint e-tickets. If your phone is low on charge you could scan the ticket on screen and print out your ticket. Or if it is flat you could login to your account at a tvm and print any tickets you may need (this is obviously complicated with multiple retailers but something they could get on board with in time perhaps).
*Booking seat reservations separately by scanning a ticket and selecting a service.
*Booking passenger assistance (although this shouldn't remove any current methods for doing so)
*"peak" restrictions warnings. If you select an off peak ticket (in simple no itinerary mode) and the next timed train is invalid a warning message with the first valid itinerary. could be displayed, this saves arguments when people don't book a specific train.
Overall it needs to be much easier than many machines currently are. Or at least have the option of being simple whilst still offering advanced features. A simple day return i tried to get from a Northern TVM the other day took nearly 4 minutes and printed 9 pieces of card as it needed to book me counted place on their services and seats on LNER. I appreciate part of that is based on the outright farce that is compulsory reservations from LNER but that only accounted for 2 of the 9.
I fully support the ability to
- Buy tickets from another station
- Buy season tickets
- Reserve Seats
- Excess Fares
I consider TVMs priority is not for people like me, and many people who have already contributed to this thread as we have a bit more knowledge than many passengers, so the primary focus MUST be on providing the necessary services to the majority of regular passengers above quirky little things for rail enthusiasts to save 14p.
As such i'd propose a menu structure that focusses on simple ticket purchases with further accessible menus for advanced options. @py_megapixel outlines some of these things really really well and many of the following will likely be similar to their suggestions.
* Collecting Tickets.
I think ToD isn't something we need to focus too much on, it will be less used as e-tickets take over, but it doesn't mean it isn't necessary, the current system appears to work. Yes we could improve by printing multiple sets in one transaction but there isn't really a way to save on entering TOD numbers so the time saved if the menu system is fast and easy isn't huge.
*Buying Tickets.
I think others have summed it up nicely. Simple ability to buy a flexible ticket between origin (automatically inputted as current station but can be edited) and destination. Restrictions on route, timing, operator marked CLEARLY AT EVERY STAGE.
If selecting a return, a further option could be "today" / "Within 30 days (including today)" / "specific date and time" with unavailable options greyed out if for example no period returns or no day returns are available for that flow. This lends itself to educating people about the differences.
When buying a restricted ticket a pop up reminding of the restrictions "Reminder : The ticket you have selected is only valid for Trains passing through or calling at Doncaster" with an option to choose a different ticket at this point would be helpful.
*Advanced options for buying tickets.
The ability to select specific services, the ability to reserve seats, etc. When using this, booking advance singles would display an appropriate warning telling customers that their ticket is ONLY valid on the specified trains etc.
*Excessing a ticket.
Scanning a barcode from a paper ticket or e-ticket printed or displayed electronically could show the current ticket, it could show common excesses, (Any permitted from a via Reading ticket) and the associated cost. This could be selected and followed like a regular transaction and an excess be printed. I assume the original ticket in the system could also be marked as "excessed to....." but this wouldn't be necessary with a printed excess.
*Timetabling / Itinerary :
Scan your ticket (or enter a destination) and it can generate a series of valid itineraries to your ticketed destination which you could choose to print or just view on the screen. Whilst it could automatically display the next services the times could be adjustable so you could arrive at Meadowhall and scan your return to work out which train you need to leave on before you leave the station to shop.
Timetables from that station could also be displayed, infact timetables for any service ought to be easily accessible.
Scanning your ticket at a connecting station could show you if the next train is delayed and offer a new itinerary.
Other things to think about.
*Offering e-tickets to your phone by entering an e-mail address or preferably by scanning a code produced in an app by your phone so it has your account details with the option to give you a printed copy too.
*Ability to print or reprint e-tickets. If your phone is low on charge you could scan the ticket on screen and print out your ticket. Or if it is flat you could login to your account at a tvm and print any tickets you may need (this is obviously complicated with multiple retailers but something they could get on board with in time perhaps).
*Booking seat reservations separately by scanning a ticket and selecting a service.
*Booking passenger assistance (although this shouldn't remove any current methods for doing so)
*"peak" restrictions warnings. If you select an off peak ticket (in simple no itinerary mode) and the next timed train is invalid a warning message with the first valid itinerary. could be displayed, this saves arguments when people don't book a specific train.
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At stations with only 1 machine, all tickets valid for travel from that station within the next hour and usable without photo card must be sold. At stations with more than one, at least one must sell everything (possibly excepting those requiring photo cards). That’s for stations without ticket offices - if they have ticket offices, then during office hours functions could be restricted to “queue busting”.
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