To what extent is an operator entitled to delay your exit from a station?

[SussexSeagull]

I think if people are having to wait more than three or so minutes then they should open the gates and let them through. Revenue protection is important but it shouldn't inconvenience the vast amount of passengers who pay their way.

 

[Feuillesmortes]

This is rather intresting, but I'm not much good with this sort of thing. Could someone set up a survey of how long people think it is reasonable to wait? Say in 3 minute increments, just to see what members on here think?

I vote for 30 second increments

 

[Brissle Girl]

I would have thought the relevant questions to GA would be:-

1. How many passengers typically arrive on your busiest 12 car services into the airport.

2. How many people do you roster to check their tickets?

3. Based on your observation of average checking times, how long will it take all these passengers to clear the check?

4. Do you think this is acceptable at an airport station where many passengers are on time critical journeys?

 

[3rd rail land]

Personally If I had to wait more than about 2 minutes for a ticket check prior to alighting at Stansted Airport I would simply walk off. If they chased after me, which I presume they would, I would proffer my ticket and railcard and mention that I have a flight to catch and can not afford to be delayed by several minutes. I wish people would do this, the aggravation it would cause might persuade them to change their attitude in regards to taking forever with their ticket checks, but sadly it sounds like people are simply putting up with this nonsense.

I don't see why I should have to factor in additional time to exit the station because of a very slow ticket check. If I were to miss my flight I very much doubt GA would cover the cost of new flight tickets and any other expenses occurred by the delay, even though the actions of their staff caused it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think if people are having to wait more than three or so minutes then they should open the gates and let them through. Revenue protection is important but it shouldn't inconvenience the vast amount of passengers who pay their way.

It is interesting that Euston P8-11 are quick to open the gates when it gets busy but other stations prefer to hold people up.

 

[gingerheid]

1. How many passengers typically arrive on your busiest 12 car services into the airport.

I think the real problems start when something else turns up behind a rammed 12 car from Liverpool St.

Personally If I had to wait more than about 2 minutes for a ticket check prior to alighting at Stansted Airport I would simply walk off. If they chased after me, which I presume they would, I would proffer my ticket and railcard and mention that I have a flight to catch and can not afford to be delayed by several minutes. I wish people would do this, the aggravation it would cause might persuade them to change their attitude in regards to taking forever with their ticket checks, but sadly it sounds like people are simply putting up with this nonsense.

I would too, but the real problem is that there's such a mad crush that you would struggle to push through unless you could get all the people in front of you to join the rebellion You'd have todo it by going up the exit ramp at the bay platforms, and they would be able to see you coming for a long time and be able to prepare to obstruct you.

It would be interesting if someone brought a court case for consequential loss because they missed their flight. My guess is that the operator would settle out of court because they wouldn't want precedent being established on what is reasonable delay in exiting a station

I'm imagining it would be somethign similar to what happened with https://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/news/local-news/customer-sues-greater-anglia-delays-14406407 (man sues and getsa default judgement after GA play silly beggers and waste time) and https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-suffolk-43751468 (bailiffs force them to pay up).

(They would ignore you to make you do all the work, hope you got frustrated, or that the judge just didn't agree with you, or that your bailiffs weren't good. And then at the end of the line say "oh there was a bit of a mix up; it was an undefended action that we didn't know about so we paid up for customer service reasons [lies; once the bailiffs left us with no choice] and it would all have been different if we'd gone to court.")

My area of interest is more the opposite and therefore unfortunately more difficult; as others have pointed out there is a legal requirement to queue where you are instructed to, but clearly this can't be open ended as if it was you could be made to wait there for ever. Unless there's a precedent trying to find out where exactly that requirement ends puts all the risk on the person that refuses to queue. This is all the more so as the layout of the station and the nature of the humungeous crush at the exits makes it hard to claim that actually you did queue and you did show your ticket and you don't understand what they're on about.

 

[blackpoolsouth]

I think if people are having to wait more than three or so minutes then they should open the gates and let them through. Revenue protection is important but it shouldn't inconvenience the vast amount of passengers who pay their way.

Even that's unreasonable and unsafe to have huge crowds building like that

Realistically if you have a valid ticket and walk out what are they going to do? How are they going to physically stop you

It sounds like this had been brought in on the cheap by trying to do checks but not having the right people with the right knowledge

 

[island]

Realistically if you have a valid ticket and walk out what are they going to do?

They can prosecute people for breaching byelaw 1 (2) (failing to queue properly on the railway) or 9 (2) (passing through a ticket barrier otherwise than in the correct manner).

How are they going to physically stop you

As mentioned in post 1, by grabbing onto people or their belongings.

How well this works generally I cannot say.

 

[cool110]

I would too, but the real problem is that there's such a mad crush that you would struggle to push through unless you could get all the people in front of you to join the rebellion

I imagine it would be very easy to do by just shouting fire or setting the alarm off.

 

[Annetts key]

The railway staff are not police and have no more powers than any other citizen. If they did have such powers, they would not need to call the police “for assistance”. If they grab you, that may be considered to be an assault.

In terms of them bringing a prosecution, they would have to identify you.

When were any of these byelaws last tested in a court?

I imagine it would be very easy to do by just shouting fire or setting the alarm off.

A fun as that may seem, it would be unwise. As it could be considered to be an act designed to cause deliberate and unnecessary panic.

 

[43066]

It would be interesting if someone brought a court case for consequential loss because they missed their flight. My guess is that the operator would settle out of court because they wouldn't want precedent being established on what is reasonable delay in exiting a station

If a delay of the order of 15-20 minutes caused you to miss your flight, they’d surely say “see you in court” on the basis that you hadn’t left enough time.

Even that's unreasonable and unsafe to have huge crowds building like that

Waiting a minute or two to pass through a ticket barrier isn’t unreasonable or unsafe, and is common around the network. Rush hour crowds at London terminals and tube stations dwarf anything at Stansted airport.

Realistically if you have a valid ticket and walk out what are they going to do? How are they going to physically stop you

As mentioned in post 1, by grabbing onto people or their belongings.

How well this works generally I cannot say.

Whatever the legality of the situation, generally staff aren’t encouraged to put themselves at risk of assault by physically stopping people. BTP will physically intervene if present, of course.

 

[Bartsimho]

Does anyone know the best way to report such safety concerns?

It would be good if Greater Anglia can be reprimanded for this.


Can you clarify what you mean by "mandatory" and is there any particular source which mentions this?

To challenge on safety grounds it's probably the HSE which you can report to that you feel like it is unsafe the way they are doing things.

That would then cause an investigation of their Risk Assessment to see whether they agree with it and if the levels reported reach beyond that Risk Assessment

 

[DeverseSam]

I imagine it would be very easy to do by just shouting fire or setting the alarm off.

Bear in mind that it’s literally the airport building so you wouldn’t want to cause knock on effects on the whole airport!

 

[Scott1]

I imagine it would be very easy to do by just shouting fire or setting the alarm off.

One of the dumbest suggestions going. For a start it's illegal, you'd cause a panic, and people could get trampled or hurt.

 

[gingerheid]

Realistically if you have a valid ticket and walk out what are they going to do? How are they going to physically stop you

As mentioned in post 1, by grabbing onto people or their belongings.

If they grab you then there's nothing really to stop you shaking them off and I can't see anyone being overly criticised for doing so. More problematic is if they see you coming and physically obstruct your passage.

 

[greyman42]

I imagine it would be very easy to do by just shouting fire or setting the alarm off.

I doubt shouting "fire" would cause any panic when there clearly is not a fire. I could however imagine shouting something else, that might cause a bit off a panic.

 

[43066]

I doubt shouting "fire" would cause any panic when there clearly is not a fire. I could however imagine shouting something else, that might cause a bit off a panic.

Not sure I’d recommend it.

Doing anything of that nature, especially at an airport, is likely to end with you face down on the ground, with guns pointed at your head, and in the back of a police van soon thereafter.

 

[greyman42]

Not sure I’d recommend it.

Doing anything of that nature, especially at an airport, is likely to end with you face down on the ground, with guns pointed at your head, and in the back of a police van soon thereafter.

You're right there!

 

[Cloud Strife]

If they grab you then there's nothing really to stop you shaking them off and I can't see anyone being overly criticised for doing so. More problematic is if they see you coming and physically obstruct your passage.

This is where the law gets very murky. If you simply walk by them, get blocked, then produce a ticket: what can they really do? There's no obligation to 'queue in an orderly manner' or some such nonsense.

But this is another example of infrastructure that was designed for a different era. Stansted should either be barriered or open, it shouldn't be relying on manual checks.

 

[island]

There's no obligation to 'queue in an orderly manner' or some such nonsense.

You may wish to read railway byelaw 1.

 

[RailExplorer]

I think they've (in a change from the olden times when you met the barrier before you got to the ticket machines...) now included the lifts in their setup.

Nope. The lifts are outside the main set up. I travel to Stansted a lot - most recently was 2 weeks ago. Last off the train, probably first in the terminal building. The other 1000 people were left behind queuing at the bottom of the escalators! You do get your ticket checked before entering the lift but that’s no big deal when you are the only one there.

 

[sheff1]

You may wish to read railway byelaw 1.

"an operator or an authorised person may require any person to queue in order to regulate order or safety on or near the railway"

As the queues here regulate neither order nor safety, in fact only go against both, one could argue that part 1 (above) does not apply.

 

[CaptainBen]

Last time I flew from Stansted I drove there. I was able to get from parking to my departure gate in 14 minutes (security was being phenomenally efficient!)

This is not the sort of action from railway companies that might encourage me to consider using them as an alternative next time I fly.

 

[gingerheid]

You may wish to read railway byelaw 1.

It does however (at least partly) have a reasonableness test.

 

[Wolfie]

They can prosecute people for breaching byelaw 1 (2) (failing to queue properly on the railway) or 9 (2) (passing through a ticket barrier otherwise than in the correct manner).

As mentioned in post 1, by grabbing onto people or their belongings.

How well this works generally I cannot say.

Good luck to the staff with that if everyone decides to walk through them. Cue trampled staff if they are that daft. Sooner or later it will happen.

 

[SussexSeagull]

You may wish to read railway byelaw 1.

This doesn't give anyone on the railways the right to delay anyone from going about their lawful business.

 

[blackpoolsouth]

This doesn't give anyone on the railways the right to delay anyone from going about their lawful business.

Absolutely

I'm shocked at the safety concerns here

 

[cuccir]

I think if people are having to wait more than three or so minutes then they should open the gates and let them through. Revenue protection is important but it shouldn't inconvenience the vast amount of passengers who pay their way.

This is certainly what happens at my local large station, Newcastle (I mean it's not fixed at 3 minutes or nay particular time as far as I know, but I've seen staff use common sense on multiple occasions when very busy and just open the barriers). LNER are pretty good at these sort of things and evidently, Greater Anglia aren't.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This is certainly what happens at my local large station, Newcastle (I mean it's not fixed at 3 minutes or nay particular time as far as I know, but I've seen staff use common sense on multiple occasions when very busy and just open the barriers). LNER are pretty good at these sort of things and evidently, Greater Anglia aren't.

Happens at Euston P8-11 when it gets busy, but that is probably to avoid a problem with people being unable to reach trains to board them with the crowd blocking the way plus a potential safety issue of the crowd knocking people on the track when attempting to do so. It is pretty standard if two trains tip out at once at a busy time.

Avanti don't do arrival checks at all so you don't see it on other platforms.

 

[island]

This doesn't give anyone on the railways the right to delay anyone from going about their lawful business.

A passenger who breaches Byelaws 1, 9, or 18 is by definition not “going about their lawful business”.