Todmorden Curve

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Colne, Nelson and Brierfield stations combined get a quarter of a million passengers per annum - an average of just over 700 per day. The trains from Colne do not start getting busy until they reach Burnley. The four Burnley stations (including Rose Grove as the fourth) get just shy of 440,000 passengers pa. That's where the demand is, and that's who is getting an improved service in December.

Quite succinctly put.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

As for an increase in service for the Colne branch - the demand just doesn't come close to justifying it (although of course that does ignore the arguments about suppressed demand because of low-levels of service provision.) Colne, Nelson and Brierfield stations combined get a quarter of a million passengers per annum - an average of just over 700 per day. The trains from Colne do not start getting busy until they reach Burnley. The four Burnley stations (including Rose Grove as the fourth) get just shy of 440,000 passengers pa. That's where the demand is, and that's who is getting an improved service in December.

I suspect the 'suppressed demand' argument is the key there. Other end-of-line places no bigger than Nelson+Colne manage more than an hourly service. Examples: Skipton, East Grinstead, Alton, Seaford. And indeed the future Borders railway being built is I believe planned for half-hourly.

(The Skipton and Alton lines serve larger places en route but still run more than hourly to the ends of the line - which is somewhat analogous to the Blackburn-Burnley-Colne situation).

 

[Sox]

As for an increase in service for the Colne branch - the demand just doesn't come close to justifying it (although of course that does ignore the arguments about suppressed demand because of low-levels of service provision.) Colne, Nelson and Brierfield stations combined get a quarter of a million passengers per annum - an average of just over 700 per day. The trains from Colne do not start getting busy until they reach Burnley. The four Burnley stations (including Rose Grove as the fourth) get just shy of 440,000 passengers pa. That's where the demand is, and that's who is getting an improved service in December.

I like the terminology but does the coming of the Todmorden curve not further emphasise that the disposition of stations in the Burnley area is an historical mess?

Could they not just scrap Rose Grove and Burnley Barracks and have a new station at the rail junction?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Since both Rose Grove and Burnley Manchester Road stations will be served by the proposed new service when eventually rolling stock is sourced, there is no need as far as I can see to reduce the distance between those two stations, which offer rail transport to their respective areas of Burnley.

 

[ianhr]

Could they not just scrap Rose Grove and Burnley Barracks and have a new station at the rail junction?

Please NO! Gannow is a desolate spot in the middle of motorway junctions, arterial roads etc., the only people who would use a station there would motorists using it as a park and ride to Manchester etc. The Colne branch would die completely. Although the existing stations are not ideally situated they are reasonably near centres of commercial activity and a certain amount of housing.

The only problem is for passengers travelling west from Burnley who have to decide between going to Burnley Central or Manchester Road for a train to Accrington, Blackburn or Preston. They get a faster train from Manc Rd and a 158 rather than a Pacer.

 

[Darren R]

The stations in Burnley are far from ideally situated - but that is hardly unique and is an accident of history. Personally I think that Central station was more accurately described when it was still Bank Top! But they are where they are and a new combined station at Gannow Junction would be even more inconveniently sited.

The problem is that passengers from Burnley to Accy Blackburn and Preston have two trains per hour - but from two stations which are not close to each other. Moreover the train from Central follows close behind the faster train from Manchester Rd. As a result you have to decide which train - and which station - you are going to use and if you miss it you have an hour to wait.

However, this improves from May with the new timetable. The services are more evenly spaced in both directions, and when we finally get the rolling stock in December trains between Blackburn and Burnley Manchester Rd will be roughly half-hourly in both directions.

Burnley is the main market for the Toddy Curve services. The market for passengers from the Colne- Burnley corridor is far smaller and is better served by the excellent bus services.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Burnley is the main market for the Toddy Curve services. The market for passengers from the Colne- Burnley corridor is far smaller and is better served by the excellent bus services.

Let us not forget that it was Burnley Council who were the lead bid authority for the successful bid monies that were intended for:-

1)...The reinvigouration and refurbishment of the Weaver's Triangle Complex at Burnley.

2)...The Todmorden Chord and the new rail service that is to use it to provide rail links from East Lancashire to Manchester via the Copy Pit Line.

 

[Darren R]

Let us not forget that it was Burnley Council who were the lead bid authority for the successful bid monies that were intended for:-

1)...The reinvigouration and refurbishment of the Weaver's Triangle Complex at Burnley.

2)...The Todmorden Chord and the new rail service that is to use it to provide rail links from East Lancashire to Manchester via the Copy Pit Line.

Precisely: the main backers were Burnley Council, and Burnley was always intended to be the prime beneficiary - although of course neighbouring boroughs should also reap the benefits. Fortunately (from a purely railway perspective) the Toddy Curve works seem to be proceeding far faster than anything at the Weavers' Triangle, where I haven't noticed anything happening yet (at least not externally visible to passers-by.)

On a seperate (but not unrelated) theme, the rebuilding works at Manchester Road station are proceeding apace. The new station building and car park look to be almost completed now, although the platforms and footpaths to the platforms are untouched and still as dingy as ever!

 

[Bantamzen]

This may have been discussed before, so my apologies if it has. I'm just thinking aloud here but would there ever be scope to link the Colne branch to the Copy Pit and onto the Todmorden Curve, perhaps with a new curve to the west of Burnley going underneath the A671 at Cavalry Way (I'm not familiar with the actual engineering of this section of road, so it may not even be possible)? It's certainly the only way I can see of a possible link between the two without reversing at Rose Grove or beyond.

If it were possible, could the potential attraction of a direct Colne - Burnley - Rochdale - Manchester service pull in the additional patronage to justify it? Perhaps if this was combined with a doubling of at least the westerly sections of the branch to allow potential for more services each hour? And if a regular service from Colne could not be justified, could one run from there per hour, with a second one starting from Burnley Central? Admittedly you might struggle to shoehorn an extra service between Todmorden & Manchester, so maybe some Colne services would have to remain heading towards Preston & beyond?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

This may have been discussed before, so my apologies if it has. I'm just thinking aloud here but would there ever be scope to link the Colne branch to the Copy Pit and onto the Todmorden Curve, perhaps with a new curve to the west of Burnley going underneath the A671 at Cavalry Way (I'm not familiar with the actual engineering of this section of road, so it may not even be possible)? It's certainly the only way I can see of a possible link between the two without reversing at Rose Grove or beyond.

I think that the idea would be for passengers from Colne inwards would require to change at Rose Grove rather than to incur the infrastructural and signalling costs of a chord of the type and route you so describe.

Look at the associated costs incurred in the Todmorden Chord as a benchmark.

 

[Hebden Bridger]

I think it would cost many times the £8m of the Todmorden Curve - IIRC the two lines run in cuttings near the junction and you would need extensive earthworks and road bridges since the chord would have to pass under a dual carriageway or even worse a major traffic island. There are also a few large buildings around.

 

[Darren R]

We'll anything's possible if you throw enough money at it, but I don't think the costs of a Colne to Copy Pit curve at Burnley could be justified. It would be a very tight curve indeed and may need to be quite steeply graded too - the Colne and Copy Pit lines start to diverge vertically at Gannow Jc, climbing towards Manchester Rd and descending towards Central both at 1 in 100.

With all due respect to the people who live in the Burnley - Colne Rail corridor, these are solutions in search of a problem. Lets look at a minor timetable recast giving connections at Rose Grove between Colne and the new Manchester services and see how demand shapes up before committing uncalculated millions on infrastructure projects for passengers that possibly don't exist.

 

[edwin_m]

Even at a minimum radius of 200m or so, a new curve would have to be quite a long way east of the junction, to the extent that it starts to affect the town centre and trains using it would not pass through Barracks station. And while it might provide a service to Manchester, it would remove the service to Preston unless the branch was improved to allow both to run.

 

[L&Y Robert]

I think that the idea would be for passengers from Colne inwards would require to change at Rose Grove rather than to incur the infrastructural and signalling costs of a chord of the type and route you so describe.

Look at the associated costs incurred in the Todmorden Chord as a benchmark.

Yes, quite right - or reversal perhaps? So Colne, Nelson, Brierfield, Burnley (Bank Top), Burnley (Barracks), Rosegrove, Burnley (Manchester Road), Towneley (let's not forget dear old Towneley - lots of population there), Todmorden, Walsden etc. etc. and Manchester!

I know Burnley (well I did, lived there as a lad, 1947 to 1966 but it's changed a lot) and I observe that the railways are higher up than is the town. Back in the 50s my Dad and I speculated on the possibility of the eastern chord, we had it leaving the Colne line at about Reedley Halt (Barden Lane), swinging south on the contour, crossing behind Bank Hall Pit (about a mile north of Turf Moor), passing behind The Ridge (and Brunshaw housing area) hugging the opposite side of the valley to the Yorkshire Line, until finally crossing over and joining up to the Copy Pit line around Cliviger (not far short of Holme Tunnel, in fact). A nice thought experiment, and in engineering terms do-able, but not just to connect a dead-end branch, as it is now. (In those days the Colne "Branch" was the Main Line and it went on to Skipton, our experiment made more sense then).

 

[Welshman]

I know way back in the days of King Cotton there was an hourly link between Colne & Manchester Victoria via Burnley, Accrington, Baxenden Bank, Bury & Clifton Junction. Indeed there were through coaches from Colne & Burnley to London Euston.

But is there still such a market from Colne now, to justify spending huge sums of money on a new chord?

 

[Darren R]

....But is there still such a market from Colne now, to justify spending huge sums of money on a new chord?

No!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

In 1906, the Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway started a steam railmotor service that served some specially-constructed halts between Colne and Burnley.

 

[spongsdad]

In 1906, the Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway started a steam railmotor service that served some specially-constructed halts between Colne and Burnley.

That service ran until the late 50's in the charge of vintage Aspinall 2-4-2 radial tank engines. The special halts were at New Hall Bridge, Reedley Hallows and Bott Lane. Ironic that these days, the siding (for that is what it is) only has the capacity to run a shuttle service between Rose Grove and Colne, even if the trains run westwards to Preston etc.

 

[Viscount702]

What about moving the Blackpool South to Colne service to go not to Colne but through Burnley round the curve and to Victoria to provide the proposed new Blackburn -Victoria service but now starting in Blackpool rather than Blackburn and introduce a new Colne _ Victoria service via Blackburn. This would give Colne a direct service to Manchester as well as Burnley. This requires no infrastructure works at all.

I know Blackpool South - Victoria via Blackburn. Burnley and Rochdale isn't the most direct but but people for Manchester would presumably change at Preston. I think I am right in thinking Blackpool South to Colne is more for stock utilisation (but even that is not ideal) rather than for passenger flows.

 

[D841 Roebuck]

What about moving the Blackpool South to Colne service to go not to Colne but through Burnley round the curve and to Victoria to provide the proposed new Blackburn -Victoria service but now starting in Blackpool rather than Blackburn and introduce a new Colne _ Victoria service via Blackburn. This would give Colne a direct service to Manchester as well as Burnley. This requires no infrastructure works at all.

I know Blackpool South - Victoria via Blackburn. Burnley and Rochdale isn't the most direct but but people for Manchester would presumably change at Preston. I think I am right in thinking Blackpool South to Colne is more for stock utilisation (but even that is not ideal) rather than for passenger flows.

Is there enough capacity between Bolton and Blackburn for this?

 

[wasi]

Is there enough capacity between Bolton and Blackburn for this?

Not till the line is doubled next year surely??

 

[Darren R]

Better yet why don't we go the whole hog? Let's have an hourly Colne - Burnley - Blackburn - Bolton - Man Vic - Todmorden - Burnley - Blackburn - Preston - Blackpool South service, alternating with an hourly Colne - Blackburn - Preston - Carnforth - Hellifield service. On reaching Hellifield the service could split, with one portion running to Clitheroe, Blackburn, Bolton and on to Manchester Airport. The other portion could go Skipton - Leeds - Bradford Interchange - Halifax - Hebden Bridge - Burnley - Blackburn - Preston - Blackpool North.

Of course some cynical people might say all this is a tad OTT for a line that carries a massive 700 passengers per day on average.

Anyway - back on topic. Is there any update on how the actual work in the real world is progressing? It was reported as being 48hrs ahead of schedule but we've had some pretty lousy weather recently.

Incidentally it looks as though there are track renewal works imminent on the Colne branch, with stacks of steel sleepers and bags of ballast appearing trackside.

 

[thealexweb]

Not till the line is doubled next year surely??

The line can support at least 2ph in each direction at the moment.

 

[Joseph_Locke]

The line can support at least 2ph in each direction at the moment.

On paper, yes, but the limited passing opportunities means that as soon as the slightest thing goes wrong it all goes wrong. Introducing a fourth train per hour in the off-peak will cause this failed state to last all day ...

Secondly, the line is not going to be fully re-doubled, nor electrified, this side of CP6 at least.

 

[Viscount702]

Secondly, the line is not going to be fully re-doubled, nor electrified, this side of CP6 at least.

Aren't some new or extended loops to be installed next year to increase capacity.

 

[Joseph_Locke]

Aren't some new or extended loops to be installed next year to increase capacity.

If all goes to Blackburn with Darwen's plan, yes; extended passing facility at Darwen.

 

[The Planner]

Nice spin on that, it is a big loop!

 

[Darren R]

If all goes to Blackburn with Darwen's plan.......

I think I may have spotted the flaw in that particular plan! (Actually I thought funding was agreed and the work was pencilled in for this year sometime.)

 

[Joseph_Locke]

Nice spin on that, it is a big loop!

I would have been told off by a former colleague for daring to suggest it/they is/are a loop, as it will have two signals in each direction. I don't think he reads this board, so I'm OK ...

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

While we are on the matter of the Blackburn to Bolton line (albeit somewhat off-topic), what is the most current Network Rail position on the matter of the Sough tunnel.