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Todmorden Curve
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No - I fold!
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Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
Last week, I was at Burnley bus station and noted the new fleet that TransDev were running on the X43 Lancashire Witch service (which incidentally passes the location of both the Weavers Triangle and Burnley Manchester Road railway station). The loadings there were very good and there was a 15 minute frequency from there (and a 30 minute frequency from Nelson).
Speaking to a member of the duty staff at Burnley bus station, it appears that this particular X43 service is now a recognised hub service to the Rawtenstall and Manchester region by people travelling into Burnley bus station from many outlying areas. I asked him what he thought of the Todmorden Chord project with its appeared lack of units to run a service and of its future opportunities and he reminded me that the lack of a town-centre railway station that could allow people to interchange between rail and bus travel was similar to that which occurs in Preston. He asked me to note that TransDev would normally not spend so much on a large new dedicated fleet for the X43 service on a whim but as a result of market evaluation purposes. He added that if Northern Rail were to use the type of rolling stock so often seen on the Colne to Preston part of the existing service on the new service via the Copy Pit line, they would be doing themselves no favours.
Speaking to a member of the duty staff at Burnley bus station, it appears that this particular X43 service is now a recognised hub service to the Rawtenstall and Manchester region by people travelling into Burnley bus station from many outlying areas. I asked him what he thought of the Todmorden Chord project with its appeared lack of units to run a service and of its future opportunities and he reminded me that the lack of a town-centre railway station that could allow people to interchange between rail and bus travel was similar to that which occurs in Preston. He asked me to note that TransDev would normally not spend so much on a large new dedicated fleet for the X43 service on a whim but as a result of market evaluation purposes. He added that if Northern Rail were to use the type of rolling stock so often seen on the Colne to Preston part of the existing service on the new service via the Copy Pit line, they would be doing themselves no favours.
No doubt the buses are of a superb standard, but for me it all boils down to journey times to and from Nelson and Burnley into Manc Victoria.
The last time I caught the bus it took almost 2 hours to get into Manchester, which unfortunately in this day and age for a 30 mile journey is FAR too long. Yes the traffic was horrific as normal on the M60, but if as Northern Rail claim the final journey time will be under an hour, I for one cannot wait.
The last time I caught the bus it took almost 2 hours to get into Manchester, which unfortunately in this day and age for a 30 mile journey is FAR too long. Yes the traffic was horrific as normal on the M60, but if as Northern Rail claim the final journey time will be under an hour, I for one cannot wait.
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
There is the matter of the 15 minute X43 bus service facility offered by TransDev to be considered. What is said to be the service facility that will be offered by Northern Rail?. Incidentally, which railway station will you be using and how will you come and go to it and what time period will you expect to add to your travel time in order to do this ?
Another matter will be the ticket prices that will be offered by Northern Rail once they find rolling stock to run the service and how will this be comparative to those ticket ranges offered by TransDev from Burnley bus station ?
The X43 provides an excellent service at off-peak times but the peak time buses are slow due to congestion in and around Manchester and that's what is putting Burnley residents off getting jobs in Manchester. An hourly Pacer/Sprinter service with well time peak services could change that.
Other benefit of the rail service will be links between intermediate stations and it will likely be a cheaper option to use rail all the way for longer journeys e.g. Burnley to Stoke opposed to a combination of bus and train.
Other benefit of the rail service will be links between intermediate stations and it will likely be a cheaper option to use rail all the way for longer journeys e.g. Burnley to Stoke opposed to a combination of bus and train.
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
Of course, there will be job opportunities in Manchester that had the rail service been running when it was stated to start, but that is no use whatsoever to those people to whom you allude at the present period in time or in the months to come..
It may be worth mentioning that one of aspirations for the successful bid monies was for the reinvigoration of East Lancashire and not an aid to its "brain drain". I think it was hoped that the new service would bring "bright young things" from Manchester to develop careers in East Lancashire.
61653 HTAFC
Veteran Member
Surprisingly, it appears that the most flexible routing (any permitted) is cheaper than tickets which specify via either Preston or Hebden Bridge!
CalderRail
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Indirectly related, press release from Northern Rail:
Indeed.
The current cost of an annual season by rail (£2480) is nearly 3 times the cost of an annual ticket for the Witch Way (£840 - which includes the cost of a bus into Burnley/Nelson from many areas too).
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Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
These days, when money is indeed a factor to consider, the point you make is most valid. If we are talking about a job with a start time of 0900, it is financially worth making a journey into Manchester on the X43 Lancashire Witch at an earlier time in the morning which is not so involved with rush-hour traffic, as the time differential of a so-called luxury of a shorter time period rail journey is then suitably lessened. However, for those who will insist upon making a rail journey, they cannot then complain they have to pay nearly three times the cost of the X43 bus in order to do so.
+ Deerfold
I used to commute from Blackburn to Manchester, often passing an X43. With its steamed up windows and seemingly endless stop/start journey, I thought the bus alternative must have a been like a trip into hell. For those affected however, the "luxury" of a train alternative (at three times cost) would take some swallowing.
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I suspect that (at present) any permitted isn't valid via either of Preston or Hebden Bridge, and that is the reason
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
Once you leave Rawtenstall, there is the onward journey on the motorways on both the M66 and the M60 and the next stop then is in the Prestwich area.
With regard to the comment of seemingly endless stop/start, which I suppose refers to the route where this service also provides a local service facility, the X43 does offer the opportunity to board at these stops to make a long-distance journey without having to use a connectional service in order to do so.
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D841 Roebuck
Established Member
I've not sampled the X43 but the buses on First Mancheste's 17/18/163 services from Rochdale and Middleton to Manchester beat a pacer for comfort, if not speed - and poo from a great height all over the offerings of Metrolink on both counts!
Booking engines allow a connection at Todmorden or Hebden Bridge on an Any Permitted but force the longer journey via Hebden Bridge on the via Hebden Bridge ticket (though I'd expect a ticket priced higher than Any Permitted to be valid on both these variants).
61653 HTAFC
Veteran Member
So presumably that's only valid with a change at Blackburn and onward travel via Bolton then? As I can't figure out any other route that would be possible!
The connection at Tod isn't much use until at least December though!
Darren R
Established Member
Interesting that we are already discussing fares! I imagine that once the trains actually start running the fares structure will be somewhat different from now. New fares and route validity will have to be introduced from Blackburn, and once the chord is open the route from Burnley to Manchester will be nearly ten miles shorter and 20 minutes faster than at present via Hebden Bridge: the current 'any permitted route' fares are not necessarily the best guide.
When Copy Pit was reopened to regular passenger trains on October 1 1984, for the first month BR (remember them?!) had special fares. (Blackpool North to York Day Return £4, Blackburn to Leeds return £1.85!) Similarly when the line reopened on September 29 1986 following the problems with Holme Tunnel, there was a special £2 flat fare for a period between any stations on the route as long as passengers crossed the Lancashire/Yorkshire border. It is entirely conceivable Northern do something similar come December.
Ultimately the success of the line will depend on cost versus convenience/journey time between trains and buses. The latter will be more frequent, but slower and end-to-end timings vary greatly depending on time and day of travel (not to mention the school calendar). The trains will only be hourly, but with a standard (and fairly reliable and constant) journey time of about 55 minutes.
Come December (based on the current bus and train timetables) the Manchester-bound commuter from Burnley will have the choice of a bus from Burnley bus station at 0700 arriving at Chorlton Str bus station at 0834, or train from Manchester Rd at about 0737 getting into Victoria at 0831. So it boils down to this: how much are commuters prepared to pay for an extra half-hour in bed?
When Copy Pit was reopened to regular passenger trains on October 1 1984, for the first month BR (remember them?!) had special fares. (Blackpool North to York Day Return £4, Blackburn to Leeds return £1.85!) Similarly when the line reopened on September 29 1986 following the problems with Holme Tunnel, there was a special £2 flat fare for a period between any stations on the route as long as passengers crossed the Lancashire/Yorkshire border. It is entirely conceivable Northern do something similar come December.
Ultimately the success of the line will depend on cost versus convenience/journey time between trains and buses. The latter will be more frequent, but slower and end-to-end timings vary greatly depending on time and day of travel (not to mention the school calendar). The trains will only be hourly, but with a standard (and fairly reliable and constant) journey time of about 55 minutes.
Come December (based on the current bus and train timetables) the Manchester-bound commuter from Burnley will have the choice of a bus from Burnley bus station at 0700 arriving at Chorlton Str bus station at 0834, or train from Manchester Rd at about 0737 getting into Victoria at 0831. So it boils down to this: how much are commuters prepared to pay for an extra half-hour in bed?
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
Nine more months without any more direct rail travel comparison is something that those who decry the X43 Witch Way should bear in mind, considering that the successful bid monies for this new rail project was intended to reinvigorate the transport infrastructure of East Lancashire and its links to the Manchester rail hub.
That should have said Blackburn or Hebden Bridge!
61653 HTAFC
Veteran Member
I thought the Walsden call was temporary, and will cease once the 'full' Tod Curve service extends to Blackburn (rather than just using the curve as a turnback siding!).
Perhaps they have in mind a 'new' station at Portsmouth or Cornholme, which would be in their territory, although presumably mostly used for journeys to Manchester!
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
If the old LYR station at Eastwood was reopened, an interchange could be made there.
Ploughman
Established Member
From BBC Leeds
A piece on the reopening of Holme tunnel
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-26705880
A piece on the reopening of Holme tunnel
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-26705880
Hebden Bridger
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There won't be a Walsden stop even on the May 2014 Tod stopper, which doesn't call at Moston or Walsden. The Brighouse stopper will call at those stations.
Does anyone have time to consult the routeing guide? The shortest Blackburn-Manchester Victoria is via Bolton, 24.5 miles.
According to railmiles which already has the Todmorden curve loaded, Blackburn-Victoria via Tod is 39 miles.
I would therefore be interested to see whether (at present) there is a mapped route via Hebden Bridge for this journey.
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
What you cannot lose sight of is that the successful bid for the monies to reinvigorate the Burnley (not Blackburn) part of East Lancashire (together with the Weaver's Triangle refurbishment project in Burnley) was led by Burnley Council. It is the Burnley area that was supposed to see a direct rail link to Manchester via the Copy Pit line, whereas Blackburn already has such a Manchester connection through the Clitheroe services.
Blackburn was a logical start and finish railway station for the proposed new service, having four platforms.
Darren R
Established Member
At present there is only one permitted route from Blackburn to Manchester and that is via Bolton. However from Burnley passengers may travel via Blackburn or Hebden Bridge. An Easement exists allowing customers to double-back via the latter with the appropriate ticket. I don't know what the permitted routes to Manchester are from stations twixt Burnley and Blackburn - presumably it will depend on the relative distances. Mill Hill or Cherry Tree to Manchester is only valid via Blackburn, but from Pleasington travel via Preston is also valid - a similar situation will ensue between Rose Grove and Blackburn come December.
My guess is new fares will be created and Blackburn to Manchester tickets will become "Route: Bolton not Rose Grove."
As an aside, curiously there is an Easement which states that customers from Darwen, Entwistle, Bromley Cross and Hall I' Th' Wood with tickets to Manchester may travel via Salford Crescent. Not sure what the point of that is!
Good point Paul.
So Burnley Manchester Road to Man Vic via Tod curve is 28.5 miles. Via Hebden Bridge is 36 miles.
Via Bolton is just under 36 miles.
What I would hope to see is that passengers from Blackburn to Burnley Manchester Road (inclusive) to Manchester (or via Manchester) may travel via Todmorden or via Bolton, but that via Hebden Bridge is no longer allowed (except at times the Tod curve service doesn't run, if there are to be any such times).
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