TPE irregularity report - no railcard

[kyyoung]

Hello,

I am really stressed out as I have realised that I have been using a railcard ticket without a railcard.

I have caught on the train from Huddersfield to Manchester (transpennine express). They gave me a ticket irregularities report.

When they first asked the railcard I thought I had access to my old one but wasn’t case, I was actually referencing to a different card out of panic and kept with that (I am new to trains up north).

It’s happened since end of October about 4 times a month, but have also traveled across the LNER and Aviva and grand central lines for the remainder of the journey.

Do you know when the investigators are looking at the Trainline history, do they also take into account the journeys that aren’t transpennine.

Can you please confirm how best to tackle this when they send a letter, as as the revenue officer was there I was originally reluctant to give my details but did prove my name and address before they left so I gave them the valid information.

I have since brought the correct railcard and will ensure to note this when they email.

With my reluctance in the video they recorded of me, I followed with the email they provided and said the following:

Would be really appreciated if someone could confirm the likely outcome. I am happy to be upfront and say I was ignorant to the railcard since I started travelling, but have been ticket checked many times and never asked for this so was not even aware. I also have now brought one.

Thanks a lot

 

[AlterEgo]

When they first asked the railcard I thought I had access to my old one but wasn’t case

What type of railcard was your old railcard? When did it expire?

I was actually referencing to a different card out of panic and kept with that (I am new to trains up north).

What is this "different card"?

Do you know when the investigators are looking at the Trainline history, do they also take into account the journeys that aren’t transpennine.

Yes.

Can you please confirm how best to tackle this when they send a letter, as as the revenue officer was there I was originally reluctant to give my details but did prove my name and address before they left so I gave them the valid information.

I have since brought the correct railcard

What is the "correct railcard" in this case?

 

[kyyoung]

What type of railcard was your old railcard? When did it expire?

So it wasn’t a railcard once I checked fully, and I’ve never travelled on northern trains before October. So essentially I haven’t had a rail card to begin with.

What is this "different card"?

As above, not relevant as I got this confused in the panic talking to the prosector, I haven’t had any acceptable rail card.

Yes.

Okay, do you know if this is for only the services under the holding company of transpenine or all?

What is the "correct railcard" in this case?

The correct card I brought today to continue my journey was 16-25

So it wasn’t a railcard once I checked fully, and I’ve never travelled on northern trains before October. So essentially I haven’t had a rail card to begin with.



As above, not relevant as I got this confused in the panic talking to the prosector, I haven’t had any acceptable rail card.



Okay, do you know if this is for only the services under the holding company of transpenine or all?



The correct card I brought today to continue my journey was 16-25

Also thanks so much for getting back to me!

 

[Gloster]

I suggest you obscure the reference numbers on the two images?

EDIT: Also remove the name from the item uploaded in #3.

 

[kyyoung]

I suggest you obscure the reference numbers on the two images?

EDIT: Also remove the name from the item uploaded in #3.

Thank you ! Have edited

To make this clearer, I said I had a pass that I thought was active, but i don’t in fact have a pass. I wasn’t sure and panicked, and have confirmed I don’t have a pass on the email afterwards in the screenshot.

I know this looks shady but was a stupid error in the heat of all the stress

To make this clearer, I said I had a pass that I thought was active, but i don’t in fact have a pass. I wasn’t sure and panicked, and have confirmed I don’t have a pass on the email afterwards in the screenshot.

I know this looks shady but was a stupid error in the heat of all the stress

I have seen that @Hadders is great on this. Would you please be able to take a look.

 

[AlterEgo]

As above, not relevant as I got this confused in the panic talking to the prosector, I haven’t had any acceptable rail card.

So what type of railcard discount have you been claiming? The one that’s led to this problem - and why did you erroneously think you were entitled to the discount?

Okay, do you know if this is for only the services under the holding company of transpenine or all?

The company will trace all your railway ticket purchases regardless of which operator you travelled with.

 

[kyyoung]

So what type of railcard discount have you been claiming? The one that’s led to this problem - and why did you erroneously think you were entitled to the discount?

I have been claiming the 16-24 rail card. I didn’t think I was entitled to it, was more ignorance on my behalf as didn’t realise it was selected when using the app.

The company will trace all your railway ticket purchases regardless of which operator you travelled with.

Okay, well in that case, do you please have any idea they’re possible outcomes. Is this too serious to settle out of court? i have been travelling since middle october and never been asked about the rail card.

I brought one today after for the remainder of my journey.

Do you think it’s best if I follow up to that email I attached and confirm I have brought a railcard and apologise for the confusion RE the previous railcard?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

@kyyoung. Welcome to the forum. This matter could prove a little expensive for you but there's every chance you'll be able to negotiate a so-called "out of court settlement" if you engage with the process.

Reckon you could well get asked to pay the full undiscounted Anytime Day Single fare for each and every journey where you've travelled using inappropriately discounted tickets, plus a low three figure sum towards the train company's admin and investigation costs.

Likely to be a better option though than ending up with a court conviction.

You'll know what all the relevant journeys were. Easy enough for the train company's investigation team to work this out also, if you've purchased your tickets using the likes of Trainline.

Huddersfield to Manchester alone will be £17.50 to pay.

 

[kyyoung]

Hi thanks so much for getting back to me.

This is good to hear, and yes aware it’s likely to be expensive but would rather this than court!

Okay makes sense.

RE the confusion on the railcard, do you think I should follow up on the email thread to also let them know right away that I brought the correct railcard for the remainder of my journey, or wait for the letter?

Thanks.

@kyyoung. Welcome to the forum. This matter could prove a little expensive for you but there's every chance you'll be able to negotiate a so-called "out of court settlement" if you engage with the process.

Reckon you could well get asked to pay the full undiscounted Anytime Day Single fare for each and every journey where you've travelled using inappropriately discounted tickets, plus a low three figure sum towards the train company's admin and investigation costs.

Likely to be a better option though than ending up with a court conviction.

You'll know what all the journeys were.

Huddersfield to Manchester alone will be £17.50 to pay.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

RE the confusion on the railcard, do you think I should follow up on the email thread to also let them know right away that I brought the correct railcard for the remainder of my journey, or wait for the letter?

Reckon you're much more likely to initially hear from the train company's investigation team by letter post. Your having now purchased a 16-25 railcard (?) is probably worth mentioning when you reply back to them, as it demonstrates that you're unlikely to be travelling again using inappropriately discounted tickets in the future.

 

[ikcdab]

Although you have already emailed them, it's unlikely to achieve much as without a reference number it will be difficult for them the tie up the cases
All you can really do now is wait for them to write to you, then you can see exactly what they are charging you with and you can respond appropriately. Come back here at that point and you will get informed advice.
In the meantime try not to worry. If you engage with the process then an out of court settlement is likely.

 

[Brissle Girl]

One difficulty I have reviewing the above (and I always try to think of how the investigators will see it), is that the statements that you thought you had a railcard but turns out you didn’t , doesn’t ring true. (Unlike if your railcard has expired, which we often see in here.). Why did you think you had one? If you don’t have a convincing explanation I wouldn’t mention it when the letter comes.

If you want a rough idea of how much this is likely to cost, take every journey you have made, and find out the Anytime Single fare for it. (If you’ve travelled long distance on LNER it could quickly add up.) Add a couple of hundred pounds to be on the safe side for their admin costs, and make sure you have the means somehow to pay it quickly, because if an offer to settle is made, you usually need to pay it within 14 days, else it will be referred for prosecution.

 

[kyyoung]

One difficulty I have reviewing the above (and I always try to think of how the investigators will see it), is that the statements that you thought you had a railcard but turns out you didn’t , doesn’t ring true. (Unlike if your railcard has expired, which we often see in here.). Why did you think you had one? If you don’t have a convincing explanation I wouldn’t mention it when the letter comes.

If you want a rough idea of how much this is likely to cost, take every journey you have made, and find out the Anytime Single fare for it. (If you’ve travelled long distance on LNER it could quickly add up.) Add a couple of hundred pounds to be on the safe side for their admin costs, and make sure you have the means somehow to pay it quickly, because if an offer to settle is made, you usually need to pay it within 14 days, else it will be referred for prosecution.

Thank you. Makes sense.

To be honest I clicked it once and was pretty ignorant to it being on other tickets too.

In terms of the email I sent prior, do you think I should follow up. Just as I did put a reference which I got from the ticket people today on it. To explain that I got it mixed up and do not have a rail card and the card I mentioned was a confusion from my side. Confirming that I made this mistake in mentioning in the first place.

Also that I have brought a valid one today? Just don’t want them to connect this to the case with the conflicting story (would rather rectify and own up I didn’t have a rail card)

Thank you. Makes sense.

To be honest I clicked it once and was pretty ignorant to it being on other tickets too.

In terms of the email I sent prior, do you think I should follow up. Just as I did put a reference which I got from the ticket people today on it. To explain that I got it mixed up and do not have a rail card and the card I mentioned was a confusion from my side. Confirming that I made this mistake in mentioning in the first place.

Also that I have brought a valid one today? Just don’t want them to connect this to the case with the conflicting story (would rather rectify and own up I didn’t have a rail card)

I was thinking to add this as a follow up just In case but will wait to hear thoughts:

 

[Brissle Girl]

No, I would wait now until you get a letter. Best to let the process they have work.

 

[Haywain]

So it wasn’t a railcard once I checked fully, and I’ve never travelled on northern trains before October.

Thet are going to look at your purchase history as far back as they can, without worrying about where you were living or where you were travelling. So if you were doing this where you previously lived you are going to be on the hook for that as well.

 

[kyyoung]

Thank you. Makes sense.

To be honest I clicked it once and was pretty ignorant to it being on other tickets too.

In terms of the email I sent prior, do you think I should follow up. Just as I did put a reference which I got from the ticket people today on it. To explain that I got it mixed up and do not have a rail card and the card I mentioned was a confusion from my side. Confirming that I made this mistake in mentioning in the first place.

Also that I have brought a valid one today? Just don’t want them to connect this to the case with the conflicting story (would rather rectify and own up I didn’t have a rail card)


I was thinking to add this as a follow up just In case:

Thet are going to look at your purchase history as far back as they can, without worrying about where you were living or where you were travelling. So if you were doing this where you previously lived you are going to be on the hook for that as well.

No, before this I never got on any northern trains, only TfL trains which do not use railcards. Does this make sense?

No, I would wait now until you get a letter. Best to let the process they have work.

Okay thanks, I will keep tight and wait for them to get back to me.

 

[FenMan]

Thank you. Makes sense.

To be honest I clicked it once and was pretty ignorant to it being on other tickets too.

To be honest, you claim to be ignorant, yet, for some reason, bought a discounted ticket to which you were not entitled. That's what the railway will see, and they know that, strangely enough, many others trying to save some money on their train fares do exactly the same.

Opening the railcard fare options on an app to get cheaper prices is always a user choice, as the cheaper, discounted, prices are never presented up front. So, please be honest to avoid going deeper into trouble.

 

[kyyoung]

To be honest, you claim to be ignorant, yet, for some reason, bought a discounted ticket to which you were not entitled. That's what the railway will see, and they know that, strangely enough, many others trying to save some money on their train fares do exactly the same.

Opening the railcard fare options on an app to get cheaper prices is always a user choice, as the cheaper, discounted, prices are never presented up front. So, please be honest to avoid going deeper into trouble.

Thanks,

So you think when they send the letter I will admit to keeping the railcard option on there. Just cautious of the story above, but guess I will have to backtrack and take full responsibility, show them the new card and pay the settlement (if lucky enough)

Do you have any recommendations of how to put this in the letter considering the above?

Thanks so much

 

[Brissle Girl]

Thanks,

So you think when they send the letter I will admit to keeping the railcard option on there. Just cautious of the story above, but guess I will have to backtrack and take full responsibility, show them the new card and pay the settlement (if lucky enough)

Do you have any recommendations of how to put this in the letter considering the above?

Thanks so much

We are getting a bit ahead of ourselves, as we haven’t seen what any letter they send says, and whether it only discusses the one instance or follows a deeper investigation into your travel history.

 

[kyyoung]

We are getting a bit ahead of ourselves, as we haven’t seen what any letter they send says, and whether it only discusses the one instance or follows a deeper investigation into your travel history.

Hi Thank you ,

I have now received the letter below.

How should I go about this please guys.

Thanks so much

 

[Brissle Girl]

This only appears to relate to the specific instance, and not in relation to any prior offences. So I would be inclined to address the one instance only in your response, but be careful not to use any words that describe it as your first offence, as they may well discover that, and you need to keep your response completely truthful if you are to avoid prosecution.

@Hadders often sets out the broad format of a suitable response, if you have a look at other similar questions. I would suggest one thing though. You need to have a Goldilocks response - not too short, as it suggests you can't be bothered to put in much effort, and definitely not too long and repetitive, as those can appear equally insincere, (especially if they are drafted using AI, which can be spotted a mile off and are cringeworthy), and can take a busy investigator too much time to plough through.

Do draft a first response here, and forum experts will be along to review it in due course.

 

[kyyoung]

This only appears to relate to the specific instance, and not in relation to any prior offences. So I would be inclined to address the one instance only in your response, but be careful not to use any words that describe it as your first offence, as they may well discover that, and you need to keep your response completely truthful if you are to avoid prosecution.

@Hadders often sets out the broad format of a suitable response, if you have a look at other similar questions. I would suggest one thing though. You need to have a Goldilocks response - not too short, as it suggests you can't be bothered to put in much effort, and definitely not too long and repetitive, as those can appear equally insincere, (especially if they are drafted using AI, which can be spotted a mile off and are cringeworthy), and can take a busy investigator too much time to plough through.

Do draft a first response here, and forum experts will be along to review it in due course.

Thanks again,

I have my drafted response here, which I will write by hand on the back once I hear your thoughts!

Hello D,


I hope you are well.


Before I provide my side of this incident, I wanted to start by saying I am honestly sorry for what happened on the 17th of March and was excusable on my behalf.


I was stopped by Revenue Protection Officers on this date, and they asked to see my ticket, which I provided them with. My Ticket was a discounted ticket which included a railcard discount; however, I did not have a railcard. This caused some back and fourth. As I was under panic with other people around, I will admit and confess that I stupidly did mention to the revenue inspector at first that I may have a railcard which I was looking for, but in reflection, I feel as though this was a panic response to buy myself time in this awkward situation, as I did not have one, which I can understand definitely increased tensions.


The revenue inspector then asked for my details, which I was apprehensive to give at first, as I am in between houses and would be hesitant for anything to arrive at this address for personal reasons. After the Revenue Officers confirmed their badge and referenced The BTP, I quickly then understood the seriousness of this situation, which I ignorantly and foolishly didn’t realise when they approached me. I of course confirmed my name and address with the revenue officer by providing my passport and a previous shopping order I made to this address (which is this address you have sent this letter to) and then asked if I could pay the full amount without the railcard discount, which they told me no as this needed to be done before, which is understandable.


I am no way correct for doing this and want to make it clear that I am sincerely sorry and by no means plan to ever do make this mistake again in the future. To ensure this, I immediately brought a 16-24 railcard the same day (Railcard ID: xxxxx) and will ensure that this is also renewed. I will also double check on all bookings to ensure that the correct Railcard has been applied.


I am really keen to settle this matter without the need for court action and would like the opportunity to pay the outstanding fair and any other costs that has risen from this inconvenience.

 

[AlterEgo]

I have my drafted response here, which I will write by hand on the back once I hear your thoughts!

Hello D, Dear (NAME) - this is a formal response regarding a criminal offence! Don't start "hello"


I hope you are well. - irrelevant


Thank you for your letter of (DATE). Before I provide my side of this incident, I wanted to start by saying I am honestly sorry for what happened on the 17th of March and was excusable (I don't recommend saying this - surely you mean inexcusable here, but your correspondence goes on to list excuses) on my behalf.


I was stopped by Revenue Protection Officers on this date, and they asked to see my ticket, which I provided them with. My Ticket was a discounted ticket which included a railcard discount; however, I did not have a railcard. This caused some back and fourth forth. As I was panicking with other people around, I admit that I mentioned to the revenue inspector at first that I may have a railcard which I was looking for. On reflection, I feel as though this was a panic response to buy myself time in this awkward situation, as I did not have one, which I can understand definitely increased tensions. (sentence too long, have cut this up for you)


The revenue inspector then asked for my details, which I was apprehensive to give at first, as I am in between houses and would be hesitant for anything to arrive at this address for personal reasons. After the Revenue Officers confirmed their badge and referenced The the BTP, I quickly then understood the seriousness of this situation, which I ignorantly and foolishly didn’t realise when they approached me. I of course confirmed my name and address with the revenue officer by providing my passport and a previous shopping order I made to this address (which is this address you have sent this letter to) and then asked if I could pay the full amount without the railcard discount. They told me no as this needed to be done before, which is understandable.


I am no way correct for doing this and want to make it clear that I am sincerely sorry and by no means plan to ever do to make this mistake again in the future. To ensure this, I immediately brought bought a 16-24 railcard the same day (Railcard ID: xxxxx) and will ensure that this is also renewed. I will also double check on all bookings to ensure that the correct Railcard has been applied.


I am really keen to settle this matter without the need for court action and would like the opportunity to pay the outstanding fair fare and any other costs that has risen from this inconvenience.

Edited this for style and spelling mostly.

Close the letter by saying "I look forward to your reply" or similar.

 

[Adam Williams]

To ensure this, I immediately brought bought a 16-24 railcard the same day (Railcard ID: xxxxx) and will ensure that this is also renewed. I will also double check on all bookings to ensure that the correct Railcard has been applied

In addition to this change, it should be a "16-25 railcard"