TPE Nova 3 (Class 68 + Mk5s) updates and withdrawal from service

[Peter Sarf]

The sole 68 diagram is based around an out and back diagram from to/from Longsight, as opposed to trying to resource 2 diagrams and use Doncaster for an overnight stabling location.

Apparently it will be easier to resource.

So I guess that means there are no 68+Mk5s lurking at Doncaser ?.

 

[BHXDMT]

So I guess that means there are no 68+Mk5s lurking at Doncaser ?.

There have been this week and likely will be next as a set has been used for crew refreshes.

 

[Peter Sarf]

There have been this week and likely will be next as a set has been used for crew refreshes.

Ah, of course, thanks.

And when crew refreshers are not needed any more maybe we can expect there to be two sets in use ?.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Ah, of course, thanks.

And when crew refreshers are not needed any more maybe we can expect there to be two sets in use ?.

No need to increase the amount of 68s in use as yet as there are more than enough 185s to resource the remaining services.

 

[Peter Sarf]

No need to increase the amount of 68s in use as yet as there are more than enough 185s to resource the remaining services.

Yeah. Something has got to change there and I always fear it might be the wrong change .

 

[Killingworth]

No need to increase the amount of 68s in use as yet as there are more than enough 185s to resource the remaining services.

Possibly when all are available in the right places with trained crews. Unfortunately they currently aren't and rail users find it hard to understand.

A Bank Holiday Monday isnt typical of regular weekday loadings but the fleet disposition today is. I see that on South Pennine the hourly westbound services from Sheffield today have all been, or are to be, 185s.

We see occasioal Nove 3s on training runs to occupy the cancelled/missing paths.

3.45 3 car to Manchester Airport.
5.08 6 car to Liverpool
6.09 6 car to Liverpool
7.07 3 car to Liverpool
8.08 6 car to Manchester Piccadilly
9.11 3 car to Liverpool
10.11 3 car to Liverpool
11.11 not currently running
12.11 6 car to Liverpool
13.11 6 car to Liverpool
14.11 6 car to Liverpool
15.11 3 car to Liverpool
16.11 6 car toi Liverpool
17.11 not currently running
18.11 3 car to Liverpool
19.11 3 car to Manchester Piccadilly
20.11 6 car to Liverpool
21.11 3 car to Liverpool (later cancelled)
22.11 3 car to Manchester Airport (later cancelled)

The 7.07 is regularly one of the busiest, trains of the day. A 5 car Nove 3 would be very handy to cover that. It's also time they ran in service to refill the current gaps.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

The 7.07 is regularly one of the busiest, trains of the day. A 5 car Nove 3 would be very handy to cover that. It's also time they ran in service to refill the current gaps.

If the 07.07 is one of the busiest trains of the day a 6 car 185 would be better than a Nova 3 as it offers all 6 vehicles to accommodate passengers.

 

[route101]

No change from the May timetable. Still just 1B64 0543 Man Airport to Cleethorpes and 1B85 1524 Cleethorpes to Liverpool as 68s. Still reliant on crews being competent, but refreshes have been ongoing recently.

Does that diagram often run?

 

[Killingworth]

If the 07.07 is one of the busiest trains of the day a 6 car 185 would be better than a Nova 3 as it offers all 6 vehicles to accommodate passengers.

Not necessarily. 185s can run with one unit fuul and standing and the other with the first or last carriage empty*. Load equalisation can be hard to achieve, any refreshment trolley unable to move along one unit or few to sell to in the other.

However any 5 car train is better than 3 at busy times - although a 68 is going to be noriced by neighbours of the railway. 5 car every hour on South Pennine should be adequate, especially so if EMR can run at least 4 car hourly trains as they're currently almost managing.

The current issue is the lottery element of TPE services. Will they run at all, full distance, on time and full.length? A single 185 running full distance and on time is better than nothing.

*Load equalisation is a challenge for all operators. This morning I saw a 3 car Norrhern 195 leaving Sheffield with a very rowdy crowd in the rear carriage, a smaller 'choir' in the next and the front almost empty. Subjec for a different thread that would decide there's been no easy answer for decades..

 

[BHXDMT]

Does that diagram often run?

As a 68, once every month or so at the moment. If it has a full complement of crew but they don't sign 68s a 185 will deputise.

 

[Ryry]

Are the 68s coming to saltburn in the change

 

[sjpowermac]

Are the 68s coming to saltburn in the change

Unfortunately not.

 

[dunc695]

I think some of the loco hauled sets would be well suited to Liverpool - Hull services, although I'm not sure if it will ever happen they must have enough 185s to cover?

 

[xotGD]

Well I had been hoping to have a 68 from Leeds to Manchester and back today. TPE had other ideas. Northern on the Calder Valley have come to the rescue yet again.

How long will this farce continue?

Surely Leeds to Manchester has to be the priority for TPE on the north transpennine route?

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Well I had been hoping to have a 68 from Leeds to Manchester and back today. TPE had other ideas. Northern on the Calder Valley have come to the rescue yet again.

How long will this farce continue?

Surely Leeds to Manchester has to be the priority for TPE on the north transpennine route?

All the routes are priority else you start to quickly loose route knowledge etc and have crew at places like Scarborough and Hull trapped with no work.

 

[Iskra]

Saw a TP 68 set at Sheffield in passenger service yesterday morning heading to Cleethorpes- the first one I’ve seen carrying passengers on TPE South, 68023 working it.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I think there were two sets out on the North route on Friday (9th June). One for definite as I saw it passing Dewsbury, the other possible set was only heard so I may have been mistaken.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Do we have consistent booked diagrams yet, and is there at least somewhat of an appropriate number of them for fourteen sets?

 

[dazzler]

I think there were two sets out on the North route on Friday (9th June). One for definite as I saw it passing Dewsbury, the other possible set was only heard so I may have been mistaken.

...and there were definitely 2 sets out yesterday (12/06/2023), as I saw 2 sets in York around 15:45(ish) - One set on Platform 4 presumably awaiting a working to Scarborough and another set running in from Scarborough on Platform 5 on the way to Manchester.

 

[D6975]

There's usually 4 out on the North route (should be 5 but one is often cancelled), but one diagram doesn't get past Leeds, the others all make it to Manchester.
On Thu of last week it was 022, 027, 029, 031 (08/05)
On Fri of last week it was 021, 024, 027, 031 (09/05)
Yesterday it was 021, 025, 029, 031 (12/05)
Today it's 021, 025, 028, 029, 032 (13/05)
As far as I can make out, the diagrams are: (note the ecs move on dia 3)

68-01
1U24	0548​	SCA	LDS
1U27	0720​	LDS	SCA
1U40	0948​	SCA	YRK
1U43	1203​	YRK	SCA
1U56	1348​	SCA	YRK
1U59	1604​	YRK	SCA
1U80	1948​	SCA	MAN
68-02
1U28	0648​	SCA	MAN
1U39	0935​	MAN	SCA
1U52	1248​	SCA	MAN
1U63	1535​	MAN	SCA
1K42	2043​	SCA	MCV
68-03
1U64	1548​	SCA	YRK
1U67	1803​	YRK	SCA
5U78	2023​	SCA	YRK
1U83	2253​	YRK	SCA
68-04
1U23	0535​	MAN	SCA
1U36	0845​	SCA	MAN
1U47	1135​	MAN	SCA
1U60	1448​	SCA	MAN
1U71	1730​	MAN	SCA
68-05
1U72	1748​	SCA	LDS
1U75	1934​	LDS	SCA
1U88	2148​	SCA	YRK
1U87	2203​	YRK	SCA

these are not official diagrams, just what I have worked out from documenting all SCA arrivals and departures on RTT for one and a half weeks.

 

[JonathanH]

Saw a TP 68 set at Sheffield in passenger service yesterday morning heading to Cleethorpes- the first one I’ve seen carrying passengers on TPE South, 68023 working it.

68025 worked to Cleethorpes on Saturday morning as well. The guard said it was the first time they had worked one.

 

[Peter Sarf]

I am gradually working out a set of diagrams. Been a bit slow, sorry.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

I am gradually working out a set of diagrams. Been a bit slow, sorry.

Someone FOI'ed TPE for their diagrams, although obviously they can't always get the 68s for the journeys but it might help.

Copies of your current unit diagrams. - a Freedom of Information request to TransPennine Trains Limited

Under the Freedom Of Information Act 2000 may i have a copy of all of your current LTP unit diagrams for SX and SO and SU please. Yours faithfully, John Smith

www.whatdotheyknow.com

 

[Peter Sarf]

Someone FOI'ed TPE for their diagrams, although obviously they can't always get the 68s for the journeys but it might help.

Copies of your current unit diagrams. - a Freedom of Information request to TransPennine Trains Limited

Under the Freedom Of Information Act 2000 may i have a copy of all of your current LTP unit diagrams for SX and SO and SU please. Yours faithfully, John Smith

www.whatdotheyknow.com

Thanks for that - more to digest !. I must get my work of art knocked into shape even though its still quite likely that some don't produce a 68+Mk5s.

 

[df43101]

I overheard a revenue protection officer yesterday saying that when the lease agreement ends on the TPE 68 sets, It`s not going to be renewed.
Training is way behind schedule & it would be easier to just use two types of traction rather than three. I know technically there`s four types but he is based at York.
Anybody else heard anything about this ?

 

[Peter Sarf]

I overheard a revenue protection officer yesterday saying that when the lease agreement ends on the TPE 68 sets, It`s not going to be renewed.
Training is way behind schedule & it would be easier to just use two types of traction rather than three. I know technically there`s four types but he is based at York.
Anybody else heard anything about this ?

No information but it has been my own conjecture that the Mk5s are vulnerable. If not all stock (4 types) is needed and training is so far behind on Mk5s then unless TPE are desperate to get rid of older 185s then I don't see TPE renewing the lease on the Mk5s. An upturn in traffic significant enough for DfT to notice would be beneficial. I would temper that view with the fact that TPE are using the Mk5s more than perhaps they need to if they were already planning on giving up on them. All conjecture I know.

 

[CAF397]

The South Route should be abandoned for deployment of 68s. Whilst Manchester Piccadilly drivers sign Liverpool to Sheffield, it's Cleethorpes drivers who sign Sheffield to Cleethorpes. Training is behind for them, and those that have been trained put reviews in for them due to not getting on them quick enough, as the diagrams haven't produced a 68 frequently enough.

Cleethorpes, Sheffield and Manchester Airport guards sign all or part of the route, and apart from Manchester Airport guards who have signed them for years, the same training and competence issues affect Sheffield and Cleethorpes.

Where as full deployment on the North route to Scarborough is easier, as Manchester Piccadilly and Scarborough drivers have signed the 68s for years, York link has quickly caught up. Manchester Airport, York and Scarborough guards also sign all or part of the route for 68s. One issue with the 68 diagrams on the Scarborough route was route knowledge, which prevented the first 2 services East bound running as they used the diversionary routes which many drivers don't sign.

The changes since May was to abandon those early services being class 68 operated, and instead get the diagrams out on services that either don't require the diversionary route, or that don't require Castleford (which was the issue).

The 68s have their place, their 5 coaches are good people movers, they just need to be allocated to routes where the training is minimal - hence give up on the South Route.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

I agree. Focus the 68s on one route and stop trying to spread the stock too thinly. Meanwhile staff elsewhere are losing competency. Thats partly contributing to the cancellations.

 

[Peter Sarf]

ASLEF getting rid of their overtime ban should change all this of course (see below).

Positive news on the horizon?

Messages from Transpennine MD and ASLEF saying overtime ban has been suspended with further discussions tomorrow.

That is from another thread.

However :-

The South Route should be abandoned for deployment of 68s. Whilst Manchester Piccadilly drivers sign Liverpool to Sheffield, it's Cleethorpes drivers who sign Sheffield to Cleethorpes. Training is behind for them, and those that have been trained put reviews in for them due to not getting on them quick enough, as the diagrams haven't produced a 68 frequently enough.

Cleethorpes, Sheffield and Manchester Airport guards sign all or part of the route, and apart from Manchester Airport guards who have signed them for years, the same training and competence issues affect Sheffield and Cleethorpes.

Where as full deployment on the North route to Scarborough is easier, as Manchester Piccadilly and Scarborough drivers have signed the 68s for years, York link has quickly caught up. Manchester Airport, York and Scarborough guards also sign all or part of the route for 68s. One issue with the 68 diagrams on the Scarborough route was route knowledge, which prevented the first 2 services East bound running as they used the diversionary routes which many drivers don't sign.

The changes since May was to abandon those early services being class 68 operated, and instead get the diagrams out on services that either don't require the diversionary route, or that don't require Castleford (which was the issue).

The 68s have their place, their 5 coaches are good people movers, they just need to be allocated to routes where the training is minimal - hence give up on the South Route.

If Cleethorpes is given up on for now I fear that means the drivers for the Manchester/Sheffield part might become out of date. Depends if those drivers also sign Manchester/Leeds/York ?.

It makes sense to side step the early morning diversionary route knowledge requirement although not a long term solution of course as there will always be a risk the diversionary route is needed during the bulk of the day eventually. So a bit of an Achilles heel but better than the current consistent cancellations !.

Somehow what you say does make me feel more positive about the future of TPE Mk5s.

I agree. Focus the 68s on one route and stop trying to spread the stock too thinly. Meanwhile staff elsewhere are losing competency. Thats partly contributing to the cancellations.

I suppose perhaps TPE thought they were getting far enough ahead on Manchester/Scarborough to start the learning process on Manchester/Cleethorpes.

Pedant/know-what-you-mean but bear in mind the stock is not being spread too thinly - it is the crews that are agonisingly thinly spread !.

 

[RHolmes]

If Cleethorpes is given up on for now I fear that means the drivers for the Manchester/Sheffield part might become out of date. Depends if those drivers also sign Manchester/Leeds/York?

Sheffield and Cleethorpes would lose the 68’s in the above hypothetical proposal and stick to the 185’s.

Manchester drivers (and Airport Conductors) are competent in Manchester to York and wouldn’t lose competency as they also sign 185s for Liverpool to Sheffield. I’m essence it’s winding down the rare south route 68’s and focusing on strengthening knowledge for Piccadilly/York/Scarb crews.