TPE Nova 3 (Class 68 + Mk5s) updates and withdrawal from service

[3RDGEN]

The loco hauled sets have been used on the trans-pennine network. They have provided capacity and enabled 185's to be doubled up elsewhere.

Quelle surprise that now that that capacity has gone, the single 185's are back with a vengeance.

I stand by my words.

According to the May 2023 diagrams in this FOI request it's a booked 3 car unit M-F & Sats, 09:11 & 11:11 appear to be booked 6 for reference.

Unit Daigrams - a Freedom of Information request to TransPennine Trains Limited

I would like to ask under the Freedom Of Information Act 2000 law may i have Up to date copy of all of your current unit diagrams and for all days of the week please With the Class 68 Locos finishing up on the South Route Yours faithfully, Billy Edmiston

www.whatdotheyknow.com

If the MkV's had worked as planned 21 * 185's would have gone off lease meaning single 185's would still have had to operated some Cleethorpes, Hull or Saltburn services.

 

[yorksrob]

According to the May 2023 diagrams in this FOI request it's a booked 3 car unit M-F & Sats, 09:11 & 11:11 appear to be booked 6 for reference.

Unit Daigrams - a Freedom of Information request to TransPennine Trains Limited

I would like to ask under the Freedom Of Information Act 2000 law may i have Up to date copy of all of your current unit diagrams and for all days of the week please With the Class 68 Locos finishing up on the South Route Yours faithfully, Billy Edmiston

www.whatdotheyknow.com

If the MkV's had worked as planned 21 * 185's would have gone off lease meaning single 185's would still have had to operated some Cleethorpes, Hull or Saltburn services.

Thanks for the info.

It definitely used to be a six last year.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

The loco hauled sets have been used on the trans-pennine network. They have provided capacity and enabled 185's to be doubled up elsewhere.

Quelle surprise that now that that capacity has gone, the single 185's are back with a vengeance.

I stand by my words.

But they have not been withdrawn yet, so this short formation is nothing to do with it

 

[RHolmes]

But they have not been withdrawn yet, so this short formation is nothing to do with it

No you’re right they haven’t been withdrawn fully yet, but it is to do with unit availability.

There are a greater number of 185’s required for the South route, as well as Liverpool and Saltburn extensions of existing service.

There simply isn’t enough 185’s split across the 4 depots to have every single service operate in double formation under the current timetable in addition to maintenance cycles and recent modifications that have taken place.

 

[xotGD]

No you’re right they haven’t been withdrawn fully yet, but it is to do with unit availability.

There are a greater number of 185’s required for the South route, as well as Liverpool and Saltburn extensions of existing service.

There simply isn’t enough 185’s split across the 4 depots to have every single service operate in double formation under the current timetable in addition to maintenance cycles and recent modifications that have taken place.

There would be enough 185s if the Mark 5 sets had been rolled out on the Cleethorpes route, as planned.

All services should be 5 or 6 carriages. There is plenty of stock to achieve this.

 

[RHolmes]

There would be enough 185s if the Mark 5 sets had been rolled out on the Cleethorpes route, as planned.

All services should be 5 or 6 carriages. There is plenty of stock to achieve this.

However that hasn’t happened

Therefore the reality is there isn’t currently enough 185’s for 25x Double 185’s

 

[xotGD]

However that hasn’t happened

Therefore the reality is there isn’t currently enough 185’s for 25x Double 185’s

The company has chosen not to make use of the stock they have available. As a result, passengers have to travel on overcrowded 3-car trains.

 

[DJH1971]

Are the Nova 3 DVT's likely to be scrapped?

 

[Tetchytyke]

However that hasn’t happened

Therefore the reality is there isn’t currently enough 185’s for 25x Double 185’s

TPE has enough stock but, instead of using it, the Zombie DfT have ordered them to park it in a siding.

This new timetable is going to be an absolute car crash. The overcrowding is going to make the Delhi Metro look like the Marie Celeste.

Are the Nova 3 DVT's likely to be scrapped?

They’re not DVTs, they’re passenger carriages with a cab end. No reason why they’d be scrapped unless the whole fleet is.

 

[RHolmes]

The company has chosen not to make use of the stock they have available. As a result, passengers have to travel on overcrowded 3-car trains.

They’ve chosen not to make use of the stock they have available as very few crew are competent in operating them, extremely limiting where, when and how many can be used.

A 3 carriage train is much better than a non-existent train in the above scenario

Zombie DfT have ordered them to park it in a siding.

As much as I loathe this current incarnation of government, that isn’t what has happened.

 

[sjpowermac]

They’ve chosen not to make use of the stock they have available as very few crew are competent in operating them, extremely limiting where, when and how many can be used.

You keep mentioning that ‘very few crew are competent in operating them’ but could you maybe answer the following questions?

1. If ‘very few crew are competent’, then why is that? What would you give as the reasons Chris Jackson the MD claims he can’t run more than ‘two or three diagrams’ 4 years after the introduction of the stock?

2. Back in December 2019 the there were four daily diagrams, but intensive ones that ran up and down between Liverpool Lime Street and Scarborough all day long. Naturally, once Covid took hold those were ended, but nonetheless, they did run for a time. Now, here’s the interesting part, that was achieved with only half the Piccadilly drivers trained, plus all of the Scarborough drivers; no York drivers at all.

3. Last October the training for Piccadilly drivers was completed, all the Scarborough drivers were trained back in 2019, and other than for a handful, by December, York Class 68/Mk5A drivers were trained. Naturally, some drivers will have moved on or retired, but that’s a natural part of the industry. So, would you be able to explain why the driver numbers trained on the sets exceeds what was envisaged for 6 Scarborough plus 6 Redcar diagrams and yet it is claimed ‘very few crew are trained on them?’

Regarding drivers going out of competency, that’s hardly surprising when TPE have chosen to use the sets so little.

You seem to be an insider, so if you have time, I’ll be really interested to hear how you back up your claims.

The company has chosen not to make use of the stock they have available. As a result, passengers have to travel on overcrowded 3-car trains.

Bang on the money. It’s rank incompetence.

 

[RHolmes]

You keep mentioning that ‘very few crew are competent in operating them’ but could you maybe answer the following questions?

1. If ‘very few crew are competent’, then why is that? What would you give as the reasons Chris Jackson the MD claims he can’t run more than ‘two or three diagrams’ 4 years after the introduction of the stock?

2. Back in December 2019 the there were four daily diagrams, but intensive ones that ran up and down between Liverpool Lime Street and Scarborough all day long. Naturally, once Covid took hold those were ended, but nonetheless, they did run for a time. Now, here’s the interesting part, that was achieved with only half the Piccadilly drivers trained, plus all of the Scarborough drivers; no York drivers at all.

3. Last October the training for Piccadilly drivers was completed, all the Scarborough drivers were trained back in 2019, and other than for a handful, by December, York Class 68/Mk5A drivers were trained. Naturally, some drivers will have moved on or retired, but that’s a natural part of the industry. So, would you be able to explain why the driver numbers trained on the sets exceeds what was envisaged for 6 Scarborough plus 6 Redcar diagrams and yet it is claimed ‘very few crew are trained on them?’

Regarding drivers going out of competency, that’s hardly surprising when TPE have chosen to use the sets so little.

I’ll try and keep it as short and simple as I can but largely:

1. There’s a massive training backlog larger than most other TOC’s currently. Drivers don’t sign all routes and traction within their links, it’s currently around 65% of drivers that sign both traction and routes within their links across the depots. (This was 40% in July). Changes and extensions to services last December didn’t help reduce training requirements.

2. Route knowledge was cut, that’s the difference between then and now. Eg. Scarborough drivers don’t currently go beyond Leeds where as originally they went all the way to Liverpool. Scarborough to Manchester currently can require as many as three guards and three drivers one way where as historically this would be one of each. During covid, my memory is a little patchy but I believe there was only two 68 sets in use (?) drivers and their instructors were (metaphorically) fighting for driver training hours on the few sets used in passenger service across the three depots.

3. I said that very few crew are trained on them because that is the reality currently.
So what’s changed? Route cards and the way train crew cover service compared to 2019 is completely different.

As I mentioned earlier only 65% of all drivers sign the routes, diversions and traction in their route cards. Drivers and guards change more frequently and there’s a higher number of trained staff required to run services. Another issue is that rest day working hasn’t been in place since 2020 until fairly recently, drivers and instructors couldn’t be released for training because the existing service couldn’t be covered (hence all the P-coding this year)

 

[sjpowermac]

I’ll try and keep it as short and simple as I can but largely:

1. There’s a massive training backlog larger than most other TOC’s currently. Drivers don’t sign all routes and traction within their links, it’s currently around 65% of drivers that sign both traction and routes within their links across the depots. (This was 40% in July). Changes and extensions to services last December didn’t help reduce training requirements.

2. Route knowledge was cut, that’s the difference between then and now. Eg. Scarborough drivers don’t currently go beyond Leeds where as originally they went all the way to Liverpool. Scarborough to Manchester currently can require as many as three guards and three drivers one way where as historically this would be one of each. During covid, my memory is a little patchy but I believe there was only two 68 sets in use (?) drivers and their instructors were (metaphorically) fighting for driver training hours on the few sets used in passenger service across the three depots.

3. I said that very few crew are trained on them because that is the reality currently.
So what’s changed? Route cards and the way train crew cover service compared to 2019 is completely different.

As I mentioned earlier only 65% of all drivers sign the routes, diversions and traction in their route cards. Drivers and guards change more frequently and there’s a higher number of trained staff required to run services. Another issue is that rest day working hasn’t been in place since 2020 until fairly recently, drivers and instructors couldn’t be released for training because the existing service couldn’t be covered (hence all the P-coding this year)

Many thanks for your very full reply, some of which is very informative.

Point 1 isn’t really an answer. Four years on (two if you stretch Covid) and still not got round to training ‘sufficient’ drivers on the Class 68/Mk5A sets, that’s absolutely appalling.

I have to say, I usually really enjoy your posts and find them very informative, but on this occasion I think you are just reading straight from the senior management book of excuses.

I notice that you have not disagreed with my statement that there are currently more drivers trained on Class 68/Mk5A than were originally envisaged would be needed for 12 sets to be in daily service. So, given you have not disputed this, any company that then claims it can only operate ‘two or three a day’ due (in part) to ‘too few staff being trained on them’ needs to take a really long hard look at themselves.

 

[3RDGEN]

Many thanks for your very full reply, some of which is very informative.

Point 1 isn’t really an answer. Four years on (two if you stretch Covid) and still not got round to training ‘sufficient’ drivers on the Class 68/Mk5A sets, that’s absolutely appalling.

I have to say, I usually really enjoy your posts and find them very informative, but on this occasion I think you are just reading straight from the senior management book of excuses.

I notice that you have not disagreed with my statement that there are currently more drivers trained on Class 68/Mk5A than were originally envisaged would be needed for 12 sets to be in daily service. So, given you have not disputed this, any company that then claims it can only operate ‘two or three a day’ due (in part) to ‘too few staff being trained on them’ needs to take a really long hard look at themselves.

It doesn't matter how many traincrew are trained if the sets can't be serviced, Scarborough can't be used at night, York never got built leaving Longsight hence the current five diagrams of which two are next to pointless anyway. The longest MkV diagram is shorter than the shortest 185 diagram, stoppers excluded.

The original north route plan for the 802's, MkV's and 30 * 185's was 5tph Manchester - Leeds plus stoppers, in December it goes down to 3tph and at best we may see 4tph again in December 2024 which the 185's & 802's can provide. 5tph Manchester - Leeds will not return until the York - Huddersfield TRU is completed which is years away. As such TPE don't need the level of stock they current have so it's either the MkV's or an equivalent number of 185's that need to go, it's an obvious choice and is long overdue.

With the MkV's gone it simplifies the north route operation, reduces training needs, helps planning and diagramming, reduces the amount of time spent managing third part maintainers so altogether it helps TPE to get on with trying to recover the service and yes it saves money.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

It doesn't matter how many traincrew are trained if the sets can't be serviced, Scarborough can't be used at night, York never got built leaving Longsight hence the current five diagrams of which two are next to pointless anyway. The longest MkV diagram is shorter than the shortest 185 diagram, stoppers excluded.

The original north route plan for the 802's, MkV's and 30 * 185's was 5tph Manchester - Leeds plus stoppers, in December it goes down to 3tph and at best we may see 4tph again in December 2024 which the 185's & 802's can provide. 5tph Manchester - Leeds will not return until the York - Huddersfield TRU is completed which is years away. As such TPE don't need the level of stock they current have so it's either the MkV's or an equivalent number of 185's that need to go, it's an obvious choice and is long overdue.

With the MkV's gone it simplifies the north route operation, reduces training needs, helps planning and diagramming, reduces the amount of time spent managing third part maintainers so altogether it helps TPE to get on with trying to recover the service and yes it saves money.

This is very good summary of the current situation. People do have very rose tinted views of the Nova 3s (unlike most of us in the industry) maybe it’s because they are loco hauled sets?

It’s also worth noting often 1-2 of the very limited number of Nova 3 diagrams are often substituted by 185s on the day.

 

[xotGD]

it saves money.

And when passengers are left behind at Leeds or Manchester when a single 185 rolls in, we'll remember all those perfectly good sets of Mark 5s dumped in a siding to save money while at the same time offering passengers an inferior service.

 

[BoroAndy]

And when passengers are left behind at Leeds or Manchester when a single 185 rolls in, we'll remember all those perfectly good sets of Mark 5s dumped in a siding to save money while at the same time offering passengers an inferior service.

Agreed, this is pathetic. Decent management would get things back to as originally planned. Advertise and get more customers. Get Nova3s working Scarborough to Liverpool with no crew changes. No excuses for lack of training, covid has gone as far as mass sickness is concerned. If this was a rsal private company, heads would roll. Utter disgrace, just F fix it now.

 

[3RDGEN]

If this was a rsal private company, heads would roll. Utter disgrace, just F fix it now.

It was a real private company, First Group, and they finally got kicked out, years too late but there you go. First Group ran the service into the ground over 19 years and that isn't going to be corrected anytime soon. We may get the current timetable back by Summer 2025 perhaps but any real improvement will be after the York - Huddersfield TRU is completed, years away. That's the reality of the situation.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Agreed, this is pathetic. Decent management would get things back to as originally planned. Advertise and get more customers. Get Nova3s working Scarborough to Liverpool with no crew changes. No excuses for lack of training, covid has gone as far as mass sickness is concerned. If this was a rsal private company, heads would roll. Utter disgrace, just F fix it now.

That’s what they are trying to do in case you haven’t seen the statements from the new MD. They are reducing the service to allow for clearing the backlog of training you request. How else do you suggest they do it?

 

[Mzzzs]

most people could not care about what trains are coming or going I think nearly all passengers want some reliability and if this is the way then do it

 

[Peter Sarf]

most people could not care about what trains are coming or going I think nearly all passengers want some reliability and if this is the way then do it

Sadly I think we are only just at the stage of accepting reliability of an inferior service is what is required to get the trained levels back to healthy.

It has all become such a waste of Mk5 coaches, goodwill and effort.

 

[TSRM]

There's a lot of conjecture on this thread, some of which needs putting right.

Some good questioning and very unconvincing answers.

It really wasn't. Questioning DOHL who'd been in charge for 100 days, and not really readied by Ministers prior to a decision taken whereby Robin Gisby was on holiday in France, on things they had no control over is a waste of time. Similarly, questioning an Interim MD who'd been in charge for less than three months and who's been tasked getting TPE back to where it was in 2016. The remit of Chris Jackson and DOHL is different to whatever was proposed in 2016.

Those questions need to be asked to who specified the franchise (DfT), those who bid for the franchise (FG) and those who accepted the franchise bid (DfT again).

One way or another TPE might still end up operating these trains

In a word, no. Chris Jackson said as much at the select committee and as has already been posted elsewhere, their time on these shores seems to be nearly up.

Unless the former Newcastle-Manchester Airport/Piccadilly service group is totally withdrawn in future, there won't be a lot of spare sets to cover for the withdrawn Mk5 sets. The net effect will be a loss of capacity.

Forgetting about the work currently going on in the background for new rolling stock at TPE. The Expression of Interests that were put out last year may have died with First Group, but there will most certainly be new rolling stock being delivered towards the back end of this decade to coincide with TRU.

As much as I loathe this current incarnation of government, that isn’t what has happened.

Directly, not. But when managers are being asked to look for significant budget cuts, the leasing costs were a large factor.

I think you are just reading straight from the senior management book of excuses.

I notice that you have not disagreed with my statement that there are currently more drivers trained on Class 68/Mk5A than were originally envisaged would be needed for 12 sets to be in daily service. So, given you have not disputed this, any company that then claims it can only operate ‘two or three a day’ due (in part) to ‘too few staff being trained on them’ needs to take a really long hard look at themselves.

Can I just say what a churlish statement this is. Or do you know better when it comes to percentages of staff trained? I highly suspect that you don't. The fact of the matter was, as mentioned on the select committee, when DOHL took over only 50% of drivers were fully competent on traction and routes - that's now above 60%. And to anyone who says that's nonsense - may I direct you to the Friday of the last TRU Morley block when only 41% of services ran over the Healey Mills diversionary route. The Saturday would've been worse had action short of a strike ended.

And if you can't acknowledge the significant challenges around the stabling of the sets, the significant training backlog courtesy of late delivery of trains, woeful decision making by Leo Goodwin, the enormous impact Covid had and ASLEF withdrawing RDW, then I'm not sure if you're ever going to find the answers you're looking for. Of course, you could always pop in a Freedom of Information request if we're all apparently reading from the senior management book of excuses...

Now I understand that you are an enthusiast who has an interest in these sets, but the reality of the situation is the product that was delivered by CAF was sub-standard. These sets were delivered late, consistently failed fault free running, didn't run that reliably Pre-Covid, have an awful ride quality, a shocking PIS system, they interface badly with the loco's and the loco's themselves are vastly more complicated that 185/802s. All of that together means they are unreliable, throw in very training intensive and not what an operator that is looking to simplify its operations ever needed. The only way they were ever going to thrive was on the South route, which is why Matt Golton launched what he called Project Havelok to get them on there, but that wasn't a success was it? Barely any days with more than one set on said route and binned off after seven months.

It was a real private company, First Group, and they finally got kicked out, years too late but there you go. First Group ran the service into the ground over 19 years and that isn't going to be corrected anytime soon.

This is just recency bias. Especially when you compare 2004 to 2016. Of course, had First Group been a real private company, not bound by the Franchise requirements set out by the DfT, the Mk5a's would've never been ordered...

 

[VauxhallNova]

These sets were delivered late

These sets were also procured late. Whilst Northern had procured their CAF stock within a month of signing the Franchise Agreement in 2015, it took FirstGroup 5 months. This had the effect of:

1. Delaying driver training.
2. Delaying the incurring of lease costs.
3. Delaying their introduction.

Of course, had First Group been a real private company, not bound by the Franchise requirements set out by the DfT, the Mk5a's would've never been ordered...

Exactly, indeed no trains would have been ordered. It was the DfT who specified additional capacity. If DfT doesn't specify additional capacity, a private company is incentivised only to control costs and run short trains.

 

[yorksrob]

And if you can't acknowledge the significant challenges around the stabling of the sets, the significant training backlog courtesy of late delivery of trains, woeful decision making by Leo Goodwin, the enormous impact Covid had and ASLEF withdrawing RDW, then I'm not sure if you're ever going to find the answers you're looking for. Of course, you could always pop in a Freedom of Information request if we're all apparently reading from the senior management book of excuses...

It seems to me that TPE have soldiered on with the above problems for the past four years.

The question should be, why after all of that pain, is this reduction in capacity being forced on TP passengers just as staff are being trained to use the sets on the Hope valley when the RDW agreement with ASLEF has been resolved ?

 

[ic31420]

There is a comment in the MEN today from TPE that the mk5s are being parked up to benefit customers.

As someone remarked in the comments section, they'll remember that when they climb into a single wedged 185 to stand for an hour on a service that runs less frequently than before.

I was a proponent of TPE reducing the number of services and having a less complex timetable offer... but not of reducing the stock, fewer longer trains was my plan, less drivers needed.

Have TPE reduced the number of FTE driver posts / establishment, vacant or otherwise?

 

[Killingworth]

It seems to me that TPE have soldiered on with the above problems for the past four years.

The question should be, why after all of that pain, is this reduction in capacity being forced on TP passengers just as staff are being trained to use the sets on the Hope valley when the RDW agreement with ASLEF has been resolved ?

I first pictured a 68 through Sheffield in November 2021 so training hadn't just started fior the Soith Pennine Hope Valley route. A lot of paths and time has been wasted over the laat two years.

In he meantime the appalling reliability of TPE services has probably lost them as much regular custom aa Covid. 3 car 185s may well seem to suffice on mony diagrams - which will support the DfTs case!

 

[Peter Sarf]

I first pictured a 68 through Sheffield in November 2021 so training hadn't just started fior the Soith Pennine Hope Valley route. A lot of paths and time has been wasted over the laat two years.

In he meantime the appalling reliability of TPE services has probably lost them as much regular custom aa Covid. 3 car 185s may well seem to suffice on mony diagrams - which will support the DfTs case!

I have a horrible feeling that DfT will just look at how to save money and that will take priority over service quality. That will apply to UK railways in general. In the case of TPE, getting rid of the smallest of four fleets(a micro-fleet) with a backlog of training is an easy target. I can understand that a much more predictable service if rather poor capacity will be a benefit. For the meantime - I can see the worst that can happen is demand grows !. If all that were not the case then DfT would let TPE carry on slowly getting better.

The above approach might be better in the long run but I suspect the lease ending in 2024 on the Mk5s makes it even more tempting to give up on them and get more 802s when TPE/DfT can justify it. Very sadly time has quite literally run out for the TPE Mk5s.

EDIT
On a more practical note - does anyone know how many / which sets are out so far this week ?.
Is there a steady decline in use ?.
All for selfish reasons - I am looking at a petroleum fuelled dash to York/Scarborough maybe this week.

 

[Iskra]

Sadly the Northern 195 fleet is more heavily used on the Cumbrian routes to run 6 car services, which means there are no longer spare 195s since the December 2022 timetable to strengthen Hope Valley services. Capacity now managed with higher priced advance single tickets. The dft and treasury will be happy. Less capacity, squeeze more revenue.

A 3-car 195 is better than a single 150 that ran this route until relatively recently. You can’t blame Northern for TP’s failings.

 

[yorksrob]

I first pictured a 68 through Sheffield in November 2021 so training hadn't just started fior the Soith Pennine Hope Valley route. A lot of paths and time has been wasted over the laat two years.

In he meantime the appalling reliability of TPE services has probably lost them as much regular custom aa Covid. 3 car 185s may well seem to suffice on mony diagrams - which will support the DfTs case!

Which does rather support my view that this is indeed primarily a DfT cost cutting exercise as all of the issues above were well on their way to being mitigated against.

The three car that turned up on Saturday still wasn't adequate, in spite of those issues !

 

[warwickshire]

Y

I first pictured a 68 through Sheffield in November 2021 so training hadn't just started fior the Soith Pennine Hope Valley route. A lot of paths and time has been wasted over the laat two years.

In he meantime the appalling reliability of TPE services has probably lost them as much regular custom aa Covid. 3 car 185s may well seem to suffice on mony diagrams - which will support the DfTs case!

Yes, remember it well, Sheffield in morning it was going to Manchester, 68 on rear, However with 68 on Front at Swinton S Yorkshire out of the blue returning back on training, both out of the blue for me, good timing also whilst going to Swinton S Yorkshire for the 321 Gascoigne Wood to Booths Scrap Move.
Mine was October late 2022, just before the clocks went back, both was the nova 3 sets, luckily the Scrap move was 2 hours late, meaning I got a nice picture and video of a 68 leading a nova 3 set mk5, on the South route, only one I caught on that route.