TPE Nova 3 (Class 68 + Mk5s) updates and withdrawal from service

[D6975]

The 1535 is a regular one to be a 185. Recently I have been recording 68 workings, the 1535 has been a 68 9 times and a 185 14 times and cancelled once in the past few weeks (M-F)

 

[37201xoIM]

Interesting to see the following paragraph in TPE's October Stakeholder briefing

Yes indeed: it's worth emphasising that no decisions have been made as yet regarding the future of this fleet beyond the December 2023 temporary timetable.

 

[xotGD]

Yes indeed: it's worth emphasising that no decisions have been made as yet regarding the future of this fleet beyond the December 2023 temporary timetable.

Hopefully we might see them return in May.

Along with a full timetable.

 

[JonathanH]

Hopefully we might see them return in May.

Won't staff start to lose competence once they stop being used? Having to go back through another round of training isn't exactly what TPE needs.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Question: I have to be in Manchester tomorrow (13th) for work and then travel to Leeds. Is the 1530 Manchester > Scarboro a hauled set?

So far this week 1U63 15:35 of Manchester Piccadilly has been a Mk5 set on Tuesday only - was TP10 + 68030. Note 1U29 is the first part from Scarborough to Manchester then 1U39 to Scarborough then 1U52 to Manchester so look out for them tomorrow. Its an intensive use of the trans-Pennine route and the sets seem to cling to the York/Scarborough end more only venturing across the Pennines to get to/from Longsight (i.e Manchester Piccadilly).

You could always hang on for 1U71 the 17:30 from Manchester. That only ran as Mk5s on Wednesday.

Hopefully we might see them return in May.

Along with a full timetable.

Isn't May 2024 when the lease on the Mk5s expires ?.
Then TPE will not have to keep them warm !.

Won't staff start to lose competence once they stop being used? Having to go back through another round of training isn't exactly what TPE needs.

Think that will another nail for the coffin.

My money is on the Mk5s leaving TPEs care in May. In a few years time when the Trans Pennine upgrades are done and paths increase extra 802s from Hitachi will be very tempting. The staff will have competency on the 802s already obviously and Hitachi will no doubt be not very busy by then.

Sadly it appears the Mk5s have been usurped by 802s.

 

[50032]

You could always hang on for 1U71 the 17:30 from Manchester. That only ran as Mk5s on Wednesday.

The 17:30 was 68+Mk5s on Tuesday as well.

Wednesday was an excellent day for 68 action, as four were out in service, including on the two diagrams that come across to Manchester and back.

 

[DarloRich]

You could always hang on for 1U71 the 17:30 from Manchester. That only ran as Mk5s on Wednesday.

to late sadly - i will just chance it!

 

[sjpowermac]

Isn't May 2024 In a few years time when the Trans Pennine upgrades are done and paths increase extra 802s from Hitachi will be very tempting. The staff will have competency on the 802s already obviously and Hitachi will no doubt be not very busy by then.

Sadly it appears the Mk5s have been usurped by 802s.

DOHL (Department for Transport Operator of Last Resort Holdings) have already stated that any capacity problems (pre-TRU) will not be solved by ordering new rolling stock. As previously mentioned, that all but rules out any additional Class 802s.

Won't staff start to lose competence once they stop being used? Having to go back through another round of training isn't exactly what TPE needs.

It is certainly very unhelpful.

In addition, whilst subleasing the locos back to DRS would recoup some of the leasing money, there will still be the cost of leasing the Mk5A sets plus presumably storage costs on top of that.

Yes indeed: it's worth emphasising that no decisions have been made as yet regarding the future of this fleet beyond the December 2023 temporary timetable.

Yes, a point that many have overlooked.

It’s interesting that the ‘Metro Mayors’ have been a lot less keen than forum members on the idea of £110 million of rolling stock bought to improve rail services in the north not being utilised in the north.

Robin Gisby’s speech to TfN was full of many ‘alternative facts’, but the one thing he did get right was when he inadvertently criticised one of the Nova 3 replacements when he mentioned having observed ‘a 3 car TPE train chugging its way towards Huddersfield.’

 

[Peter Sarf]

DOHL (Department for Transport Operator of Last Resort Holdings) have already stated that any capacity problems (pre-TRU) will not be solved by ordering new rolling stock. As previously mentioned, that all but rules out any additional Class 802s.

It is certainly very unhelpful.

In addition, whilst subleasing the locos back to DRS would recoup some of the leasing money, there will still be the cost of leasing the Mk5A sets plus presumably storage costs on top of that.

Yes, a point that many have overlooked.

It’s interesting that the ‘Metro Mayors’ have been a lot less keen than forum members on the idea of £110 million of rolling stock bought to improve rail services in the north not being utilised in the north.

Robin Gisby’s speech to TfN was full of many ‘alternative facts’, but the one thing he did get right was when he inadvertently criticised one of the Nova 3 replacements when he mentioned having observed ‘a 3 car TPE train chugging its way towards Huddersfield.’

Not ordering new rolling stock only has to be true of course until some point in the future.

We can only hope that pressure from the "Metro Mayors" is enough to keep these new trains in use. After all there is a service to be provided to passengers.

 

[sjpowermac]

Not ordering new rolling stock only has to be true of course until some point in the future.

We can only hope that pressure from the "Metro Mayors" is enough to keep these new trains in use. After all there is a service to be provided to passengers.

Yes, at some point in the future there will, of course, be new rolling stock, I haven’t said otherwise.

The key thing, as mentioned, is that DOHL have stated no new rolling stock pre-TRU stock. It would be very surprising if the TRU stock were to appear within the next four years or so.

Naturally there’s the talk of the TPE fleet currently being ‘60% bigger’ than in 2018. This sounds impressive until you stop to consider how many trains in 2018 were totally inadequate 3-car trains.

The current TPE claim that they have sufficient rolling stock without the Nova 3 sets is at odds with previous statements by both Chris Jackson (TPE MD) and Paul Staples (TPE Fleet Director).

 

[BoroAndy]

The 17:30 was 68+Mk5s on Tuesday as well.

Wednesday was an excellent day for 68 action, as four were out in service, including on the two diagrams that come across to Manchester and back.

Proves that they can be used.

 

[sjpowermac]

Proves that they can be used.

Indeed.

All Scarborough drivers were trained by December 2019. There’s circa 50 drivers at Piccadilly and 60 at York trained. It must take some careful planning not to cover all five of the current Nova 3 diagrams

 

[BoroAndy]

Yes, at some point in the future there will, of course, be new rolling stock, I haven’t said otherwise.

The key thing, as mentioned, is that DOHL have stated no new rolling stock pre-TRU stock. It would be very surprising if the TRU stock were to appear within the next four years or so.

Naturally there’s the talk of the TPE fleet currently being ‘60% bigger’ than in 2018. This sounds impressive until you stop to consider how many trains in 2018 were totally inadequate 3-car trains.

The current TPE claim that they have sufficient rolling stock without the Nova 3 sets is at odds with previous statements by both Chris Jackson (TPE MD) and Paul Staples (TPE Fleet Director).

Yes, if it gets to next summer and SCR-YRK are 3 car 185s, mainly just shuttling and overcrowded, the s*** will hit the fan over the media, with demands that OLR get services back to at least the poor levels of previous TPE management. More stock will be needed from somewhere.

 

[sjpowermac]

Yes, if it gets to next summer and SCR-YRK are 3 car 185s, mainly just shuttling and overcrowded, the s*** will hit the fan over the media, with demands that OLR get services back to at least the poor levels of previous TPE management. More stock will be needed from somewhere.

Yes, completely agreed.

DOHL themselves have stated that with a reliable timetable demand will quickly come back and of course, summertime on the Scarborough line the demand never went away.

There is, of course, some slack in the current Class 802 diagrams due to the Manchester-Newcastle service only being every other hour. I do, however, hope someone lets the Metro Mayors know exactly which services will be permanently lost in order for Class 802s to do some backfilling.

 

[50032]

Proves that they can be used.

Quite. I think since 68031 spat its dummy out on 30th August the 68 fleet has been fairly trouble free.

 

[sjpowermac]

Quite. I think since 68031 spat its dummy out on 30th August the 68 fleet has been fairly trouble free.

Shhhhh! Don’t jinx it

You make an excellent point.

The two major problems were (largely) fixed by the work done at Wolverton and Neville Hill.

Replacement connector/receptacle for the loco/stock communication cable and improved wiring for the Automatic Hot Axel Box Detectors.

It’s been a huge shame that the Class 68/Mk5A sets have never been introduced into squadron service on high mileage diagrams. It must have been a nightmare for engineers trying to improve reliability with a maximum of six in traffic, mainly operating Scarborough shuttles.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Shhhhh! Don’t jinx it

You make an excellent point.

The two major problems were (largely) fixed by the work done at Wolverton and Neville Hill.

Replacement connector/receptacle for the loco/stock communication cable and improved wiring for the Automatic Hot Axel Box Detectors.

It’s been a huge shame that the Class 68/Mk5A sets have never been introduced into squadron service on high mileage diagrams. It must have been a nightmare for engineers trying to improve reliability with a maximum of six in traffic, mainly operating Scarborough shuttles.

The Mk5s have had to struggle against the favouritism odds for quite some time it seems.

 

[Killingworth]

Currently perceived wisdom is that Nova 3s are a failure and they aren't coming back.

Logic says almost new trains should not be scrapped.

They're liveried up for TPE so again logic says TPE should be first choice for further use.

No operator wants to lease faulty trains. Are all the suggested faults fully understood and already fixed or being fixed in the near future?

Assuming they were all fixed and a fully functioning fleet was available some time in 2024 where could they be deployed?

Given that by then all previous training knowledge will probably have expired could TPE stand the pain of starting training all over again?

Two routes were tried, Scarborough most intensely yet mostly as York shuttles. South Pennine training used up numerous revenue earning paths for over 18 months with almost no reward.

IF, a big IF, they came back, how many reliable units would it need to operate a full Nova 3 South Pennine service? The thought of more lost revenue earning paths for training would swing my vote against, but if they were long term reliable one more period of pain might just be worth it?

Commercially that would also depend on return of passenger numbers and lease contract terms.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Apologies if it's already been mentioned (couldn't see a post that specifically mentioned today) but I've just seen a Nova3 set pass Batley on 1U39. First one I've seen west of York in daylight hours for a while. Was going too fast to see the loco number, and RTT shows it pathed as a DMU with no info on which loco and set it is.

 

[JonathanH]

Commercially that would also depend on return of passenger numbers and lease contract terms.

The elephants in the room appear to remain stabling, maintenance and training though. They can't all be on out and back diagrams from Longsight.

 

[sjpowermac]

The elephants in the room appear to remain stabling, maintenance and training though. They can't all be on out and back diagrams from Longsight.

Not really sure why they need to be on out and back diagrams from Longsight.

There’s a purpose built depot at Scarborough, where the shore supply is now operational and the locos go on and off the depot with the ETS switched off.

As previously mentioned, more drivers and guards have been trained than was originally envisaged would be needed to operate 12 Nova 3 diagrams per day.

Apologies if it's already been mentioned (couldn't see a post that specifically mentioned today) but I've just seen a Nova3 set pass Batley on 1U39. First one I've seen west of York in daylight hours for a while. Was going too fast to see the loco number, and RTT shows it pathed as a DMU with no info on which loco and set it is.

68023/TP09 on 1U39.

 

[50032]

Apologies if it's already been mentioned (couldn't see a post that specifically mentioned today) but I've just seen a Nova3 set pass Batley on 1U39. First one I've seen west of York in daylight hours for a while. Was going too fast to see the loco number, and RTT shows it pathed as a DMU with no info on which loco and set it is.

It would've been 68023 + TP09. Another good day for 68s today with four sets out.

 

[sjpowermac]

Currently perceived wisdom is that Nova 3s are a failure and they aren't coming back.

Logic says almost new trains should not be scrapped.

They're liveried up for TPE so again logic says TPE should be first choice for further use.

No operator wants to lease faulty trains. Are all the suggested faults fully understood and already fixed or being fixed in the near future?

Assuming they were all fixed and a fully functioning fleet was available some time in 2024 where could they be deployed?

Given that by then all previous training knowledge will probably have expired could TPE stand the pain of starting training all over again?

Two routes were tried, Scarborough most intensely yet mostly as York shuttles. South Pennine training used up numerous revenue earning paths for over 18 months with almost no reward.

IF, a big IF, they came back, how many reliable units would it need to operate a full Nova 3 South Pennine service? The thought of more lost revenue earning paths for training would swing my vote against, but if they were long term reliable one more period of pain might just be worth it?

Commercially that would also depend on return of passenger numbers and lease contract terms.

Seems a big own goal between December and May to pay leasing/storage charges whilst at the same time ensuring all the drivers/conductors lose competency…

The Mk5s have had to struggle against the favouritism odds for quite some time it seems.

Yes, indeed so.

It would be interesting to compare the reliability of the Class 80x fleets at the same number of cumulative miles as the Nova 3 fleet.

I can’t think of worse conditions for engineers to iron out problems than running six sets (now 4 or 5!) on low mileage diagrams.

I think under the circumstances they’ve done well to sort out the majority of the problems.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

68023/TP09 on 1U39.

It would've been 68023 + TP09. Another good day for 68s today with four sets out.

Thanks both. Now slightly regretting going for the cheap option of Northern advances for my trip to Lancashire, when I could perhaps have got some 68 miles in!

 

[sjpowermac]

Thanks both. Now slightly regretting going for the cheap option of Northern advances for my trip to Lancashire, when I could perhaps have got some 68 miles in!

Always the way

If it’s any help 68023 is diagrammed on
1U52 1248 Scarborough-Man Picc then 1U63 1535 Man Picc-Scarborough.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Always the way

If it’s any help 68023 is diagrammed on
1U52 1248 Scarborough-Man Picc then 1U63 1535 Man Picc-Scarborough.

Unfortunately I've no chance today as I'm picking up my new car... unless they can stick a Motorail van on the back of 1U63 and put in a special stop order for Batley!

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Seems a big own goal between December and May to pay leasing/storage charges whilst at the same time ensuring all the drivers/conductors lose competency…

However the June 2024 timetable (note it’s June next year as a fall out of the failed BTPF timetable change proposals) is due for bidding by the TOCs to Network Rail and my understanding is largely a roll over for Trans Pennine of December 2023.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Apologies if it's already been mentioned (couldn't see a post that specifically mentioned today) but I've just seen a Nova3 set pass Batley on 1U39. First one I've seen west of York in daylight hours for a while. Was going too fast to see the loco number, and RTT shows it pathed as a DMU with no info on which loco and set it is.

1U39 is part of a usual Mk5 diagram number 2. Should be 1U52 12:48 back to Manchester.

But they have been jumping diagrams - I think often in favour of doing more York/Scarborough shuttles. But they do have to get back to Longsight every 3 (approx !) days.

Unfortunately I've no chance today as I'm picking up my new car... unless they can stick a Motorail van on the back of 1U63 and put in a special stop order for Batley!

Car vs 68 - I don't understand the problem !.

 

[AY1975]

Yes, the York-Scarborough line is usually pretty good for Class 68/Mk5A sets on a weekend. No problem at all with the list, I hope you have a great trip

Looking at Real Time Trains, last Saturday at least in the afternoon and evening pretty much all TPE trains to/from Scarborough appear to have been 185s. Does this mean that the 68s and Mark 5s have recently lost all booked workings at weekends? If not, does anyone know what services (if any) they will work tomorrow?

 

[37201xoIM]

DOHL (Department for Transport Operator of Last Resort Holdings) have already stated that any capacity problems (pre-TRU) will not be solved by ordering new rolling stock. As previously mentioned, that all but rules out any additional Class 802s.

It is certainly very unhelpful.

In addition, whilst subleasing the locos back to DRS would recoup some of the leasing money, there will still be the cost of leasing the Mk5A sets plus presumably storage costs on top of that.

Yes, a point that many have overlooked.

It’s interesting that the ‘Metro Mayors’ have been a lot less keen than forum members on the idea of £110 million of rolling stock bought to improve rail services in the north not being utilised in the north.

Robin Gisby’s speech to TfN was full of many ‘alternative facts’, but the one thing he did get right was when he inadvertently criticised one of the Nova 3 replacements when he mentioned having observed ‘a 3 car TPE train chugging its way towards Huddersfield.’

Nail / head interface on pretty much all counts, @sjpowermac!