Trains told to get rid of torrent of 'Tannoy spam'

[biko]

How have we got to this point? I can't think of any country that I've been to that even comes close.

This is a very good question. The UK has a bizarre number of announcements, both in the trains and on the stations.

On the continent it's a lot less, especially in the Netherlands. I don't believe the difference between the systems are so big that the need for announcements is so different. The only difference is maybe 'mind the gap' as the gaps are a lot smaller in the Netherlands (at stations with a huge gap, actually there is still no announcement).

At a Dutch station there basically are no announcements if there's a good service. The following announcements are made in normal situations:
- Future or current engineering works
- Upcoming departures of international trains (in Dutch, English and German (for Gemany-bound services) or French (for Belgium-bound services)
- very occasionally a safety announcement

Besides that only changes are announced:
- Disruptions
- Cancellations
- Platform alterations
- Delays (only in steps of 5 minutes, so no need for another announcement if a delay changes from 6 to 7 minutes)

In a Dutch intercity train a normal way would be:
- At departure from the origin: welcome, destination and all calling points
- At minor stops: next station is ...
- At interchanges: next station is ..., change here for xx:xx service to XXX from platform X, this train continues towards XX and will call at XX.
- Just before destination: just like at interchanges, but instead of announcing next calls, announcement that it is the destination and possibly a reminder of taking your luggage with you.

I have no idea why the UK needs to announce basically every piece of information which isn't urgently needed for passengers.

 

[MattRat]

This is a very good question. The UK has a bizarre number of announcements, both in the trains and on the stations.

On the continent it's a lot less, especially in the Netherlands. I don't believe the difference between the systems are so big that the need for announcements is so different. The only difference is maybe 'mind the gap' as the gaps are a lot smaller in the Netherlands (at stations with a huge gap, actually there is still no announcement).

At a Dutch station there basically are no announcements if there's a good service. The following announcements are made in normal situations:
- Future or current engineering works
- Upcoming departures of international trains (in Dutch, English and German (for Gemany-bound services) or French (for Belgium-bound services)
- very occasionally a safety announcement

Besides that only changes are announced:
- Disruptions
- Cancellations
- Platform alterations
- Delays (only in steps of 5 minutes, so no need for another announcement if a delay changes from 6 to 7 minutes)

In a Dutch intercity train a normal way would be:
- At departure from the origin: welcome, destination and all calling points
- At minor stops: next station is ...
- At interchanges: next station is ..., change here for xx:xx service to XXX from platform X, this train continues towards XX and will call at XX.
- Just before destination: just like at interchanges, but instead of announcing next calls, announcement that it is the destination and possibly a reminder of taking your luggage with you.

I have no idea why the UK needs to announce basically every piece of information which isn't urgently needed for passengers.

I blame the education system (as I often do, I admit). People need to be told everything, becuase if they weren't, they don't have the common sense to look after themselves, which is as depressing as it sounds.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I blame the education system (as I often do, I admit). People need to be told everything, becuase if they weren't, they don't have the common sense to look after themselves, which is as depressing as it sounds.

Manchester Piccadilly did try a "silent terminal" approach for a bit. It was blissful, but had the downside of causing issues for blind people. It was I believe disability campaigners who pushed to have it reversed.

As for reading out calling points, you can only really not do if you have a fully consistent timetable (i.e. Takt). We don't, so it's necessary to reel off the stops. On Merseyrail as I said above everything is all stations so you don't (though it's still done, I think just because the off the shelf PIS does it anyway).

 

[Lewis5949]

I blame the education system (as I often do, I admit). People need to be told everything, becuase if they weren't, they don't have the common sense to look after themselves, which is as depressing as it sounds.

Many of us wouldn't have the jobs we do if people could figure things out themselves

 

[dm1]

As for reading out calling points, you can only really not do if you have a fully consistent timetable (i.e. Takt). We don't, so it's necessary to reel off the stops. On Merseyrail as I said above everything is all stations so you don't (though it's still done, I think just because the off the shelf PIS does it anyway).

There is a wide margin between reading out nothing at all and reading out the entire stopping pattern every stop. For example reading out only the next 3 (or 4 or 5) stops and any major stops en route. Or things like "Calling at: 'xx', 'yy', 'Major stop', and stations to 'Destination', with the major stop shifting each time it is passed. In other words, ensuring that somebody on the wrong train always has the opportunity to change to the correct train before they go past their station. Having a consistent timetable is helpful, but it is by no means a requirement.

 

[nanstallon]

I just hate being treated as a five year old. We all know we should take care of our belongings! If you treat everyone as an idiot, they'll behave like idiots.

And I am fed up with not being able to have a conversation on a train without constant loud interruptions. One of these days i'm going to scream 'fu*k off'.

 

[Kent99]

I agree that “spam” should be eradicated, but I’ve noticed over the past few years that fewer and fewer useful announcements are being made. “Change here for ___” often completely lacking. Sometimes silence the whole journey. This is fine if you have a good working knowledge of the railways but does not give many travellers any confidence

 

[TheWalrus]

That's because those who didn't hear it the first time probably weren't on the train yet. The fix for that is to unlock the doors just before leaving ans play the announcement just before closing them, i.e. have the same dwell limit as an en route stop. Be careful what you wish for.

Couldn’t it be once just before leaving and once when it has left?

 

[driverd]

I agree that “spam” should be eradicated, but I’ve noticed over the past few years that fewer and fewer useful announcements are being made. “Change here for ___” often completely lacking. Sometimes silence the whole journey. This is fine if you have a good working knowledge of the railways but does not give many travellers any

...change here for 'x' being a perfect example of an entirely useless announcement - given this information is printed on seat reservations, displayed on apps, on websites when you buy your tickets, on journey planners, on ticket vending machines, when discussing travel options at the ticket office and often in person with the guard when the ticket is checked.

Can you ever imagine buying a ticket from London to Gateshead and managed to get on the Newcastle bound service, without realising you need to change at Newcastle?

Far more useful information could be provided by a diligent guard looking at where people were connecting to as part of their ticket check, and then announcing the platform and time for 2 or 3 popular connections. Common sense dictates the lack of requirement to do this if there is just one or two people connecting - its better customer service to provide this information personally to the individual concerned, unless you've promised them it will be announced - in my experience such an announcement is better received when presented as "and for the benefit of the customer travelling to x..."

Likely, no one will agree on what is essential (who needs to be told to keep their luggage in sight? - yet this is one of the transec 3 announcements, or certainly was 5 years ago), and we'll just keep getting the "see it, say it, sorted" type garbage.

 

[headshot119]

On Merseyrail as I said above everything is all stations so you don't

Check, does your train stop at Capenhurst?

 

[MattRat]

I just hate being treated as a five year old. We all know we should take care of our belongings! If you treat everyone as an idiot, they'll behave like idiots.

And I am fed up with not being able to have a conversation on a train without constant loud interruptions. One of these days i'm going to scream 'fu*k off'.

Except most people ARE idiots. That's why we have the announcements, although I think a better solution can be found, one that treats the disease, not the symptom.....

 

[BluePenguin]

I just hate being treated as a five year old. We all know we should take care of our belongings! If you treat everyone as an idiot, they'll behave like idiots.

And I am fed up with not being able to have a conversation on a train without constant loud interruptions. One of these days i'm going to scream 'fu*k off'.

Phone calls are very difficult. I often ask an open question as an announcement begins playing and then mute myself, so that by the time it has finished my friend will still be replying. Otherwise there is an awkward silence whilst we both wait for the announcement to end

 

[londonmidland]

Manchester Piccadilly did try a "silent terminal" approach for a bit. It was blissful, but had the downside of causing issues for blind people. It was I believe disability campaigners who pushed to have it reversed.

Birmingham New Street has done this same 'silencing technique', but its honestly a mess, in my opinion. They've silenced all auto P.A arrival/departure announcements, in an attempt to reduce noise pollution, but at the same time increased the amount of manual announcements. These are both announced globally across the ENTIRE station as well as some being very questionable in quality. Some of which you can barely understand a word of what is being said. So trains are often arriving in unannounced between no manual announcements.

The CIS is set up very poorly, too. Pax are often left waiting at the wrong end of the platform, because the CIS has only been split up for two parts of the station, whereas it needs to be split up into three parts for departures from the extreme 'B' end of the platform, which is often used by XC Turbo services.

I've sent a detailed suggestion email to Network Rail, which explains how they can improve the above situation. I am currently awaiting a response from them.

 

[Inversnecky]

Watching this earlier tonight reveals it’s far from a new issue…

 

[MCSHF007]

Except most people ARE idiots. That's why we have the announcements, although I think a better solution can be found, one that treats the disease, not the symptom....

Indeed. 100%

 

[Pigeon]

I find a lot of spam comes under 'don't be an idiot'. Has anyone ever considered there might be a bigger problem that needs addressing?

Yes. If people really were as stupid and incapable of taking care of themselves as to make the constant flood of bollocks safety announcements necessary, they'd never manage to make it to the station in the first place - how would they be able to walk down the street without a machine to tell them it's raining every few minutes? - so obviously we can cut those announcements because the people they're aimed at don't exist.

But being an idiot is profitable. We need to update the legal system so that "Plaintiff is a four-core nidget" is an absolute defence. (And "plaintiff is blatantly taking the piss".)

We also need to stop encouraging idiocy below that point such as by abolishing the notion that any kind of accident or mishap is (a) always and necessarily cause to blame some person, and (b) that person is never the person the accident happened to; the mere fact that the accident happened to them automatically puts them in the right and someone else in the wrong, and taking into account the degree of stupidity they displayed which caused them to have the accident is not allowed. It's difficult enough to get people to realise they're being stupid in any case, and teaching them that someone else is always to blame for consequences which result from their own failings only helps them to believe they haven't got any.

 

[MattRat]

Yes. If people really were as stupid and incapable of taking care of themselves as to make the constant flood of bollocks safety announcements necessary, they'd never manage to make it to the station in the first place - how would they be able to walk down the street without a machine to tell them it's raining every few minutes? - so obviously we can cut those announcements because the people they're aimed at don't exist.

But being an idiot is profitable. We need to update the legal system so that "Plaintiff is a four-core nidget" is an absolute defence. (And "plaintiff is blatantly taking the piss".)

We also need to stop encouraging idiocy below that point such as by abolishing the notion that any kind of accident or mishap is (a) always and necessarily cause to blame some person, and (b) that person is never the person the accident happened to; the mere fact that the accident happened to them automatically puts them in the right and someone else in the wrong, and taking into account the degree of stupidity they displayed which caused them to have the accident is not allowed. It's difficult enough to get people to realise they're being stupid in any case, and teaching them that someone else is always to blame for consequences which result from their own failings only helps them to believe they haven't got any.

That machine you joke about, it's called a 'smart' 'phone'.....

 

[muz379]

A lot of the announcements are mandatory because the DFT say so . Unless he is saying only dft mandated announcements can be made I don't see much changing.

A lot of the announcements about risks you hear are because making regular announcements is a cheap and easy way to mitigate and lower scores on risk assessments . So without other measures some of which cost money they'll continue to be used . Again I can't see the dft to free up loads of money for tactile paving or investment in non slip surfaces around stations .

The only practice I think should be banned is staff making manual announcements that repeat the information given by automatic announcements. That isn't an attack on staff but it does seem on some TOCS staff are constantly repeating automatic announcements which adds no value . The only time I'd make a manual announcement is if the automatic ones aren't working or to convey information the automatic ones can't like service disruption .

 

[Bletchleyite]

Check, does your train stop at Capenhurst?

At the moment everything does stop, and it is likely it will for good, as the improved performance of the 777s will mean no need to introduce confusion to save a minute.

However, all you need on the displays is "does not stop at Capenhurst" if you happen to have one exception. Very common to see haelt nicht in X on displays in Germany if that service normally would. What you don't need to do (and Merseyrail didn't until it adopted a standard PIS) is list off all the stations that every service calls at, because every service calls there. The Tube doesn't either except for the Met Line.

 

[Bonafide]

Except most people ARE idiots. That's why we have the announcements, . . .

Presumably that includes railway staff, who are also people. Such a sweeping generalisation is somewhat offensive. Surely we should all show respect for others, and then the world would be a better place.

 

[Falcon1200]

As well as 'See it, Sat it etc', something else that could surely be ditched are the 'Please take care in todays wet/icy conditions' messages: Has there ever been a case where the railway has been found liable when someone slipped and no such broadcast had been made ? When I walk to my local station on a frosty or snowy day, the only parts that are ever treated are the paths down to the platforms and the platforms themselves. Clearly it would be impossible to treat every pavement (although it would be nice if the Council made at least some effort), but why should the railway be held to a different standard ?

 

[urbophile]

As for reading out calling points, you can only really not do if you have a fully consistent timetable (i.e. Takt). We don't, so it's necessary to reel off the stops. On Merseyrail as I said above everything is all stations so you don't (though it's still done, I think just because the off the shelf PIS does it anyway).

Merseyrail announces every stop before leaving city centre stations (Central and Moorfields on the Northern line; not sure about the Wirral), but otherwise the PIS just announces the next stop. I'm not sure about reciting the whole list even at the terminus, though it might help visitors to the area; the other is helpful (when it's not out of synch) and not intrusive in my view.

 

[BeijingDave]

GwR turbos announce at every station stop Do not board and leave the train as the doors are closing.

I feel that the type of person who takes a last-minute running jump into a carriage when a door is about to close (with beeping sound on many networks) would do it anyway, regardless of a broadcast warning.

 

[Acton1991]

The worst offender of unnecessary announcements is Heathrow Express at Heathrow stations. The platform attendant literally screaming down the microphone constantly, usually pretty hard to understand, with information that should be automatically played anyway (train destination, calling points etc).

 

[Ralph Ayres]

I feel that the type of person who takes a last-minute running jump into a carriage when a door is about to close (with beeping sound on many networks) would do it anyway, regardless of a broadcast warning.

Isn't part of the point of the beeping sound that it warns you to get on quickly or you'll miss the train?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Isn't part of the point of the beeping sound that it warns you to get on quickly or you'll miss the train?

It's supposed to warn you not to attempt to board, but you'd be correct that in practice what you are saying is how it is, and always will be, treated by the vast majority of people.

The worst offender of unnecessary announcements is Heathrow Express at Heathrow stations. The platform attendant literally screaming down the microphone constantly, usually pretty hard to understand, with information that should be automatically played anyway (train destination, calling points etc).

Like on London Underground, I think giving platform attendants microphones has been something with overridingly negative effects, because they simply can't discipline themselves not to give a running commentary in most cases.

 

[3rd rail land]

The worst offender of unnecessary announcements is Heathrow Express at Heathrow stations. The platform attendant literally screaming down the microphone constantly, usually pretty hard to understand, with information that should be automatically played anyway (train destination, calling points etc).

Surely this is not needed for Heathrow Express. At Heathrow T5 for example it calls at 2 stations and the destination is the same for all trains.
TFL Rail is different because it has several intermediate stops but as you say this should be an automated announcement anyway.

Like on London Underground, I think giving platform attendants microphones has been something with overridingly negative effects, because they simply can't discipline themselves not to give a running commentary in most cases.

Station staff used to announce every single train's destination, allow passengers to alight first, mind the gap etc... Really unnecessary. This only seemed to happen during the peaks and platforms were often unstaffed during quieter periods.
Passengers managed perfectly fine when staff weren't making announcements all the time.

On a side note it must get really boring/tiresome making the same announcements constantly, especially on a line with trains every 2-4 minutes. Not something I'd want to be doing.

 

[Acton1991]

Surely this is not needed for Heathrow Express. At Heathrow T5 for example it calls at 2 stations and the destination is the same for all trains.
TFL Rail is different because it has several intermediate stops but as you say this should be automated announcements anyway.

You'd have thought so! But unfortunately the number of announcements for both HEX and TfL Rail is absurd. The sheer volume of it is also extremely off putting - not a great first impression for visitors either!

 

[riceuten]

This has echos of the "Cones Hotline" - that some Sir Bufton Tufton has complainted to CCHQ about it and everyone assumes it's a networkwide issue. The TOCs and Network Rail have plenty of other fish to fry instead of this.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

(TfW do need to drop that safety message after every station though, it’s nothing short of just noise pollution)

I suspect the edict from Shapps doesn't apply to TfW (or Scotrail and the other non-DfT TOCs).
Like Covid, they will likely have their own steer on announcements (in Welsh too, in TfW's case).