Transdev Blazefield

[Tetchytyke]

Fat lot of use a fire extinguisher will be on a battery bus fire. And do they get the man from the hire car company at the airport to show them how to adjust the hire car seat? They usually just give you the keys and point you in the vague direction of the car park, from their cosy desk in the terminal.

Fire extinguishers work on lithium-ion battery fires.

You mention hire cars. I got an electric courtesy car last week whilst my ICE car was having some work done on it. The garage came out with me to the electric car and showed me how to use it because- here's the thing- electric cars are different to ICE cars and they didn't want me to crash it.

 

[CBlue]

Of course I'm not expecting any engagement from Lucy - she just likes to rant.

It's gone beyond ranting. More like impotent shouting into the void, in honesty.

 

[Steve440]

It's gone beyond ranting. More like impotent shouting into the void, in honesty.

The best thing to do is just ignore her.

 

[mph111]

You certainly need to know where the fire extinguisher and first aid kits are located, possibly locations of Master switches as well, also a bit of time just to learn the locations of controls, and quite importantly how the seat adjustment works.

Exactly this. My employer (admittedly in the HGV world) takes driver familiarisation/type training very seriously. There are much more complex controls in heavy commercial vehicles than a car, which often vary by manufacturer. And I understand mirror camera systems can vary considerably in their initial set up and use by manufacturer as well. I’d imagine an electric bus with its different weight distribution and acceleration behaviour also would require some driver coaching, thinking specifically about regen, brakes and tyre wear.

 

[SCH117X]

1001 has finally entered service today so thats all 20 Mercs having arrived at Starbeck.

Demonstrator 93 remains in use presumably as cover for 1017 that is seemingly requiring some faults to be repaired as it has not been used since 24 Jan.

More of the ADLs should now start appearing.

 

[theblackwatch]

One of the old 'Harrogate Electrics', 802, was collected from Starbeck depot yesterday by a tow truck and taken away. Unsure of destination, but it had only been in service the day before.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

One of the old 'Harrogate Electrics', 802, was collected from Starbeck depot yesterday by a tow truck and taken away. Unsure of destination, but it had only been in service the day before.

Speculative question: could this be for fitting of replacement traction batteries?

 

[Deerfold]

Presumably not going too well - I had two trips on the 6, today, both on a double decker ex-NCT "Starbus".

 

[SCH117X]

One of the old 'Harrogate Electrics', 802, was collected from Starbeck depot yesterday by a tow truck and taken away. Unsure of destination, but it had only been in service the day before.

Most likely the Volvo dealers, Crossways Truck & Bus at Boroughbridge. Have seen one previously being towed along the A6055 towards Boroughbridge.

 

[GWVillager]

A friend has just sent me a photo of a Volvo electric being towed from Harrogate bus station. I'm assuming this is unrelated?

 

[SCH117X]

A friend has just sent me a photo of a Volvo electric being towed from Harrogate bus station. I'm assuming this is unrelated?

Could be 801 which made it to the bus station mid afternoon yesterday but then did not work anymore
806 has been renamed from Rossett Acre to Robert Lister (a cancer suffer, the son of Jacky Lister the cleaner at Harrogate bus sation) - that bus having branding on it for Yorkshire Cancer Research.
On Facebook Paul Turner has confirmed deliveries of the remainder of the ADLs will start soon and that Harewood crash victim 3619 is now receiving Aireline branding. 3620-28 will get the same, 3639-41 Dalesway and 3616/8 Keighley Bus Company livery. As for 3617 "nothing currently" is happening to that crash victim.
Three of the four Enviro 400s for Team Pennine school duties have arrived
Newer former Reliance single deckers are to be repainted for York along with 62, 751 and 753 getting a repaint.
States a few service changes are to the pipeline for April with former Reliance Dalesbus service resuming - 825 to Richmond and 875 to Hawes.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Previously untracked Env400EV 2215 today did 6 hours on a diagram that was otherwise covered by 2211. Running-in turn or something else? The fact that said diagram goes all the way through to the last Ripon may be relevant.

 

[Leedsbusman]

Previously untracked Env400EV 2215 today did 6 hours on a diagram that was otherwise covered by 2211. Running-in turn or something else? The fact that said diagram goes all the way through to the last Ripon may be relevant.

Did you see it?

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Did you see it?

No, hence the reference to tracking and the question. It might be explained by the ticket machine being changed, either physically or just the id, but to do it twice in a few hours seems unlikely. Of course someone at Transdev Harrogate may simply enjoy being mischievous!

 

[Leedsbusman]

No, hence the reference to tracking and the question. It might be explained by the ticket machine being changed, either physically or just the id, but to do it twice in a few hours seems unlikely. Of course someone at Transdev Harrogate may simply enjoy being mischievous!

Ah sorry - it didn’t sound like you were questioning the accuracy of the tracking. It does seem unlikely given the post earlier saying deliveries will start soon.

 

[SCH117X]

There was a posting on Facebook this week claiming five ADLs were at Starbeck which which was quickly shot down by Paul Turner stating only three. Presumably 2211 had either a ticket machine change or reset during which the fleet number was incorrectly entered. Could it be the key presses required in setting up were ...22115... ?

 

[Leedsbusman]

There was a posting on Facebook this week claiming five ADLs were at Starbeck which which was quickly shot down by Paul Turner stating only three. Presumably 2211 had either a ticket machine change or reset during which the fleet number was incorrectly entered. Could it be the key presses required in setting up were ...22115... ?

Well is either 2215 has entered service despite no reports of it being delivered and worked for five hours replacing 2211 and then swapping back for 2211. Or 2211 has its machine changed over and the wrong number programmed in by error which was then corrected five hours later.
Given 2201, 2206, 2209 and 2214 have tracked once falsely then I’d go for the latter!

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Well is either 2215 has entered service despite no reports of it being delivered and worked for five hours replacing 2211 and then swapping back for 2211. Or 2211 has its machine changed over and the wrong number programmed in by error which was then corrected five hours later.
Given 2201, 2206, 2209 and 2214 have tracked once falsely then I’d go for the latter!

On reflection I agree with your conclusion. It's also nice to see that someone spotted the error and corrected it so soon: normally it seems to take days.

Sadly 2211 didn't make it to the end of the diagram but doubtless this was due to not all drivers having had their E40EV training yet. The replacement diesel was evidently lined up for the changeover well in advance having had its previous Starbeck terminator curtailed at the bus station (if we believe the tracking!)

 

[Dusty_Bin]

On reflection I agree with your conclusion. It's also nice to see that someone spotted the error and corrected it so soon: normally it seems to take days.

Sadly 2211 didn't make it to the end of the diagram but doubtless this was due to not all drivers having had their E40EV training yet. The replacement diesel was evidently lined up for the changeover well in advance having had its previous Starbeck terminator curtailed at the bus station (if we believe the tracking!)

It has nothing to do with driver training and everything to do with the battery range not being enough for a full day and the pantograph system not working correctly. Look for the remaining vehicles to be registered from March 1st and arrivals over the next couple of weeks.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Now I'm a little puzzled by this apparent OppCharge issue. Transdev is the second customer to take delivery of the second generation E40EV so practical experience of the revised model is limited. ADL claim an operational range of no less than 385 miles for a fully charged vehicle with new batteries. I don't know what allowance that range makes for operational territory (hills) but Transdev obviously have some pragmatic scepticism about it, hence their decision to have the OppCharge option.

I don't know how EV operators manage their charging regimes but I would guess they work to a minimum in-service charge level in the 10-15% region. This would give a maximum range for planning purposes of say 325 miles which may well be adjusted further downwards to allow for variations in HVAC load and will also decline as batteries age. However having looked at the turns needed to cover the 36 the longest appears to be 268 miles which is 69.6% of ADL's claimed range. Even allowing for the above variables there seems to be a decent margin built into the vehicles as is. So what am I missing? Do hills consume more battery power than I realise? Will the inevitable battery performance decline make OppCharging absolutely vital later on? Are there problems at Starbeck depot which are preventing vehicles getting a full charge each night?

It's also interesting to note that the claimed range for the eCitaro is only 400km=250 miles yet since delivery these vehicles, which don't have OppCharge but can use a single plug-in point at the bus station if absolutely necessary, have been working from early morning until late evening pretty much from Day One with minimal problems. My guess is this contrast shows that the hill climbing needed for the 36 fleet really does drain the batteries quite heavily. I have been looking around the www for some sort of information/evidence for all/any of this with no luck. Does anyone have any clues?

Also, for those who don't accept my point about vehicles being swapped due to not all drivers being trained; firstly I experienced this first hand at the end of December and have also witnessed it since then. As there are few days when journeys are not being cancelled somewhere on the Harrogate network I think it's fair to say that Starbeck depot is still short of drivers which would inevitably make training difficult, though by no means impossible, to accommodate. Secondly, some of the swaps from electric to diesel buses are happening after only half a shift's operation by the EV. It seems improbable that this would be due to a charging issue which would make the training issue the most likely reason. If you have inside information that says otherwise I'm all ears!

 

[SCH117X]

Now I'm a little puzzled by this apparent OppCharge issue. Transdev is the second customer to take delivery of the second generation E40EV so practical experience of the revised model is limited. ADL claim an operational range of no less than 385 miles for a fully charged vehicle with new batteries. I don't know what allowance that range makes for operational territory (hills) but Transdev obviously have some pragmatic scepticism about it, hence their decision to have the OppCharge option.

That 385 mile range is not doubt in ideal conditions and, beside having to clamber up Harewood, Swindon and Wormald Green banks etc, being thrashed at max speed whenever possble on the A61 will significantly reduce the actual achievable range. Stick one a relatively flat route not doing more than 30mph and towards 385 miles might be achieved.

 

[Leedsbusman]

Now I'm a little puzzled by this apparent OppCharge issue. Transdev is the second customer to take delivery of the second generation E40EV so practical experience of the revised model is limited. ADL claim an operational range of no less than 385 miles for a fully charged vehicle with new batteries. I don't know what allowance that range makes for operational territory (hills) but Transdev obviously have some pragmatic scepticism about it, hence their decision to have the OppCharge option.

I don't know how EV operators manage their charging regimes but I would guess they work to a minimum in-service charge level in the 10-15% region. This would give a maximum range for planning purposes of say 325 miles which may well be adjusted further downwards to allow for variations in HVAC load and will also decline as batteries age. However having looked at the turns needed to cover the 36 the longest appears to be 268 miles which is 69.6% of ADL's claimed range. Even allowing for the above variables there seems to be a decent margin built into the vehicles as is. So what am I missing? Do hills consume more battery power than I realise? Will the inevitable battery performance decline make OppCharging absolutely vital later on? Are there problems at Starbeck depot which are preventing vehicles getting a full charge each night?

It's also interesting to note that the claimed range for the eCitaro is only 400km=250 miles yet since delivery these vehicles, which don't have OppCharge but can use a single plug-in point at the bus station if absolutely necessary, have been working from early morning until late evening pretty much from Day One with minimal problems. My guess is this contrast shows that the hill climbing needed for the 36 fleet really does drain the batteries quite heavily. I have been looking around the www for some sort of information/evidence for all/any of this with no luck. Does anyone have any clues?

Also, for those who don't accept my point about vehicles being swapped due to not all drivers being trained; firstly I experienced this first hand at the end of December and have also witnessed it since then. As there are few days when journeys are not being cancelled somewhere on the Harrogate network I think it's fair to say that Starbeck depot is still short of drivers which would inevitably make training difficult, though by no means impossible, to accommodate. Secondly, some of the swaps from electric to diesel buses are happening after only half a shift's operation by the EV. It seems improbable that this would be due to a charging issue which would make the training issue the most likely reason. If you have inside information that says otherwise I'm all ears!

You don’t have to believe what others are telling you if you wish.

The changeovers are due to the op charge system not functioning and not due to driver training which happened during December. Depending on circumstances the buses either stay out for a spell or are swapped part way for a recharge - the latter may allow them to cover both peaks for example.

ADL quote “620km/385mi theoretical range in UK Bus Cycle at beginning of life (472kWh battery)”. This is based on an urban bus operation rather than a high speed interurban which will have less regenerative opportunity and higher drain. It is only with the more recent generation of electric buses that speeds over 40mph can be sustained.

Operators will generally keep 20%+ charge in reserve and you plan for c25% degredation over time. That alone drops your range to 231 max Add in winter performance and the intense nature of the route and you can see why opportunity charging is needed.

The eCitaros have a higher battery capacity 588kwh v 472 and therefore will have a better range when on similar work. Their most demanding work will be the 7 to Leeds. They are topped up between trips at the Bus Station due to longer layover times as an alternative to opportunity charging.

 

[Dusty_Bin]

You don’t have to believe what others are telling you if you wish.

The changeovers are due to the op charge system not functioning and not due to driver training which happened during December. Depending on circumstances the buses either stay out for a spell or are swapped part way for a recharge - the latter may allow them to cover both peaks for example.

ADL quote “620km/385mi theoretical range in UK Bus Cycle at beginning of life (472kWh battery)”. This is based on an urban bus operation rather than a high speed interurban which will have less regenerative opportunity and higher drain. It is only with the more recent generation of electric buses that speeds over 40mph can be sustained.

Operators will generally keep 20%+ charge in reserve and you plan for c25% degredation over time. That alone drops your range to 231 max Add in winter performance and the intense nature of the route and you can see why opportunity charging is needed.

The eCitaros have a higher battery capacity 588kwh v 472 and therefore will have a better range when on similar work. Their most demanding work will be the 7 to Leeds. They are topped up between trips at the Bus Station due to longer layover times as an alternative to opportunity charging.

620km is impossible, that’s just ADL marketing rubbish. Both the Enviro 400 and eCitaro have 80% of the max capacity as “usable” energy. This is commonplace in bus EV technology where 20% is kept to maintain battery health (preserves cycle life, battery health and some for urgent systems). This 20% is not chosen by the operator, the 100% the driver can see as a fully charged bus is actually 100% of the 80%.

This gives the ADL 377kwh of battery, indicative real world performance suggests the bus will consume around 1.2kWh per Km which will give you around 314kms range. This isn’t taking into account regen etc but these figures are aligned with the early press releases from 2022. 1.2kWh is pretty good for a decker btw, I understand with the proper HVAC system on the eCitaro these are actually around 1.4kWh ( the Zemo test cert was 1.12 Vs ADL 0.67)

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

@Leedsbusman , @Dusty_Bin. thank you both for your most recent posts, just the sort of useful information I have been unsuccessfully looking for. In summary it does seem like ADL are over-promising and under-delivering while Mercedes, much like fellow Germans Siemens with their Desiro trains of 2 decades ago, have delivered a new (to the UK) product that works "straight from the box". We can only hope that the on-going issues around the E40EV fleet are swiftly dealt with and soon become just an irritating memory.

Anyone who has followed our exchanges may be interested in the Zemo results for many other vehicle types which can be found at
https://www.zemo.org.uk/work-with-us/buses-coaches/low-emission-buses/certificates-hub.htm

In the meantime Transdev controllers now have the issues arising from the Ripon Road closure to deal with: I do not envy them!

 

[SCH117X]

In the meantime Transdev controllers now have the issues arising from the Ripon Road closure to deal with: I do not envy them!

Timekeeping wise the diverted services do not seem to have a major issue. Not announced by them as far as I am aware is that they are timetabled to call at all stops. I suspect the former MD would have quickly promoted more buses to Aldi (otherwise only served by the 4) and the council offices (otherwise only served by the 2)

 

[158756]

@Leedsbusman , @Dusty_Bin. thank you both for your most recent posts, just the sort of useful information I have been unsuccessfully looking for. In summary it does seem like ADL are over-promising and under-delivering while Mercedes, much like fellow Germans Siemens with their Desiro trains of 2 decades ago, have delivered a new (to the UK) product that works "straight from the box". We can only hope that the on-going issues around the E40EV fleet are swiftly dealt with and soon become just an irritating memory.

Anyone who has followed our exchanges may be interested in the Zemo results for many other vehicle types which can be found at
https://www.zemo.org.uk/work-with-us/buses-coaches/low-emission-buses/certificates-hub.htm

In the meantime Transdev controllers now have the issues arising from the Ripon Road closure to deal with: I do not envy them!

I don't know how these tests work, but how does the ADL get such low power consumption (0.67Kwh/km) for a double deck vehicle? According to the Zemo page only minibuses are scoring lower, which seems bizarre. I see the e-Citaro is apparently slightly heavier than the E400, but still that wouldn't explain such a big difference between the two.

620km is impossible, that’s just ADL marketing rubbish. Both the Enviro 400 and eCitaro have 80% of the max capacity as “usable” energy. This is commonplace in bus EV technology where 20% is kept to maintain battery health (preserves cycle life, battery health and some for urgent systems). This 20% is not chosen by the operator, the 100% the driver can see as a fully charged bus is actually 100% of the 80%.

This gives the ADL 377kwh of battery, indicative real world performance suggests the bus will consume around 1.2kWh per Km which will give you around 314kms range. This isn’t taking into account regen etc but these figures are aligned with the early press releases from 2022. 1.2kWh is pretty good for a decker btw, I understand with the proper HVAC system on the eCitaro these are actually around 1.4kWh ( the Zemo test cert was 1.12 Vs ADL 0.67)

I notice on the Zemo certificate it says the ADL's usable battery capacity is 415Kwh, or 88% of the total capacity, whereas the Citaro only has 420kWh of the 588 total (71%). Is this actually true of how they operate in the real world, or is the ADL's real capacity lower/Citaro's higher?

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Timekeeping wise the diverted services do not seem to have a major issue. Not announced by them as far as I am aware is that they are timetabled to call at all stops. I suspect the former MD would have quickly promoted more buses to Aldi (otherwise only served by the 4) and the council offices (otherwise only served by the 2)

Minor update/correction: since creation of the unitary North Yorkshire Council with HQ in Northallerton the Harrogate offices are known as Harrogate Civic Centre and the on-board announcements have been amended appropriately.

As for timekeeping it seems to have gone well today. We shall see tomorrow if the WFH pattern so often referred to elsewhere on the forum are replicated in terms of more road traffic on Tuesday than a Monday.

I don't know how these tests work, but how does the ADL get such low power consumption (0.67Kwh/km) for a double deck vehicle? According to the Zemo page only minibuses are scoring lower, which seems bizarre. I see the e-Citaro is apparently slightly heavier than the E400, but still that wouldn't explain such a big difference between the two.



I notice on the Zemo certificate it says the ADL's usable battery capacity is 415Kwh, or 88% of the total capacity, whereas the Citaro only has 420kWh of the 588 total (71%). Is this actually true of how they operate in the real world, or is the ADL's real capacity lower/Citaro's higher?

Quite so, hence my comment about ADL over-promising. The test conditions were perhaps rather favourable to the ADL. Also it touches on a subject I have not seen mentioned anywhere. In aviation there is the issue of "tanking" where increasing the range of a plane by providing greater fuel capacity also worsens performance due to the additional weight. In EVs providing extra range just by having more battery capacity would be expected to worsen power consumption due to the extra weight. As battery technology evolves this issue will doubtless improve. It would be nice to see more data in a manner us mere mortals can understand!

 

[SCH117X]

Minor update/correction: since creation of the unitary North Yorkshire Council with HQ in Northallerton the Harrogate offices are known as Harrogate Civic Centre

It was known as Harrogate Civic Centre under Harrogate Borough Council and has not been renamed.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

It was known as Harrogate Civic Centre under Harrogate Borough Council and has not been renamed.

Except by the bus company!

 

[John HG1]

Except by the bus company!

Whatever the official name, most people know it as the Council Offices.