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Transpennine Industrial Relations

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northwichcat

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Currently I could earn more as a HGV driver (for example) than I do as a conductor and I’m very aware of that fact.

Train conductors don't need a HGV licence. If you want to move to job that requires higher qualifications and pays more, then that's fine as it's what many working people want. The lower skilled roles are always going to have people leaving them for the higher skilled roles.

I've never really had a satisfactory answer to a question I've put a few times - under BR gripping irons (ticket nippers) were totally standard items, going from the simple shape cut to denote areas/regions, to the Zifa stamper still in use today in some areas which imprinted an ID number for the inspector, headcode, date etc. Some TOCs to save a few quid stopped bothering to pay for them because they're expensive, but even then most inspectors somehow clip period tickets be it with a pen or a hole punch.
As a passenger I've observed proper stamps don't hide ticket lettering, which a scribble with a marker pen can. On the flip side the ink from the stamps can smudge on the current gloss finish tickets, annoying if you put your ticket away too soon and it smudges on the clear window of a wallet or purse.
 
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notadriver

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Train conductors don't need a HGV licence. If you want to move to job that requires higher qualifications and pays more, then that's fine as it's what many working people want. The lower skilled roles are always going to have people leaving them for the higher skilled roles.

An HGV driving job does not require higher qualifications than a train conductor. Are you suggesting it does ? When you say lower roles will always have people leave - are you suggesting a train conductor is lower skilled ?

You won’t see fire and rehire for traincrew (especially drivers!).

If the government even attempt to do that then you’re not going to have a train service for two years! You’ll be facing walk outs and having to scramble to find medically fit, competent and capable train staff to train before even running anything close to the normal timetable.

Currently I could earn more as a HGV driver (for example) than I do as a conductor and I’m very aware of that fact. I certainly won’t be staying in the role where I’m not appreciated or with poor working conditions, it’s the reason I’ve left my previous roles.

Don’t leave ! I think anyone who does will find it hard to re-enter the industry. I’m guessing by the amounts of people outside the industry recently being taken on, they there is a preference to recruiting them.

Also I believe HGV driver pay has plateaued and falling back to previous levels as more either switch from driving buses or get their licences some other way. The previous drivers hours rules relaxations have no ended for hgv drivers so they are no longer so desperately needed.
 

nedchester

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Let's stick to a pair of eyes then


Productivity , like it or not it's union policy to try and win something for their members if the company tries to implement changes which makes things easier for the company . Why should the company be the one that reap all the rewards.

15 years ago when I was still in teaching they moved from paper registers to only registers using a system called SIMS.

Rather than bits of paper flying around it was all sorted online. It made the job easier for everyone.

In the railway bubble teachers should have refused to cooperate?

There are many things teachers had to complain about (it’s why I left) but refusing to register kids on a laptop was not one of them!
 

northwichcat

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An HGV driving job does not require higher qualifications than a train conductor. Are you suggesting it does ?

Yes I certainly am. You need no previous qualifications to apply for a trainee conductor role. Even if you apply for a trainee HGV driver role it is a requirement that you've already passed the necessary tests to drive smaller road vehicles.

A job centre advisor could advise almost anyone that a trainee conductor role is suitable. (I get they won't all be accepted but they'll meet the requirements on paper.) On the other hand if it's a trainee bus driver or trainee lorry driver then they need to ensure the candidate already has a full driving licence to be able to recommend it.

When you say lower roles will always have people leave - are you suggesting a train conductor is lower skilled ?

Even compared to other roles on the railway, yes it is. It might require more training than someone manning a ticket office but the railway requires loads of drivers and that alone is a higher level role than conductor.
 
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Signal_Box

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Teachers don’t work Sundays? Maybe you’d like to ask a few teachers about that as I guarantee there’s many out there today who will be planning lessons, marking and other admin tasks. I’ve been there.



Which is what I did.

Congratulations, then stop moaning maybe ? We all have a choice in life live with a job that offers poor wages and terms or get off our butts to fish and fight for a job offers offers better.

It’s surprising how much people will fight once they have the latter to keep it so.
 

nedchester

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That's just a news article, I would like to see it as part of the Tory manifesto please.

Regarding tory manifestos they usually put it out there to get voted in and then they bin it. I can never understand the contempt towards traincrew shown by some people, I have friends that earn far more than me, some work in the public sector......


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43096

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I doubt sacked train crew will find advantageous conditions of service elsewhere? I suspect that’s what the Tories will be expecting.
No chance of train crew getting such well paid jobs elsewhere. Given the attitude some display, there are some who are probably unemployable elsewhere.
 

the sniper

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I doubt sacked train crew will find advantageous conditions of service elsewhere?

Guess you're right, we all know train crew are unqualified, worthless, dregs of society types. Couldn't find a proper job...

I think people would be surprised on the Guards side how many people have left for opportunities elsewhere. I've never known the turnover to be higher where I know, largely because people saw the writing on the wall with the DfT's DCO campaign. If the Drivers came under the cosh, I imagine the same would happen. Most of the railway lifers are retiring anyway, numerous 'boil in the bag' Drivers will go back to their previous professions and actually use their qualifications again, as most only made the jump for the pay and T&Cs Driving has offered.
 

Devon Sunset

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Same difference

The point is most employees would not think it was reasonable to ask for extra money for some new kit provided. Railway bubble again.
You bang on repeatedly about the railway bubble but that’s the same bubble that you are a part of. How much do you think you’d be paid in the outside world?
 

muz379

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To the inspector, what really is the difference between a standard issue Zifa stamper and a scanner? You're already using the phone and in theory you might already be using a stamper too, or would have been had the TOC chosen to continue to issue them.

It would be much simpler if the RMT just admitted they wanted to attempt to replace commission, which I have no issue with, rather than the usual nonsense about wanting to share in the profits etc etc. There isn't a train operating company really making any profit at the minute :lol:
From clipper to zifa you still had to manually check the ticket so couldn't check any quicker . Reports of fraud had to be made manually as well . The scanner should he able to check for you and tell you if a ticket is valid or not quickly meaning in theory you can check quicker . Who has more to gain from more tickets being checked ? Reports of fraud can also be generated automatically and uploaded in real time . There is also the data collected on passengers and fsres . All in the company is gaining a lot out of scanning . Some who have reached a deal to pay conductors are reporting it's saved them millions in digital fraud and part of that will be undoubtedly because of motivated staff going out there scanning huge volumes of tickets .

Perhaps nobody is making profit but they're Savi money as a result of operational changes
 
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nedchester

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You bang on repeatedly about the railway bubble but that’s the same bubble that you are a part of. How much do you think you’d be paid in the outside world?

Some of us in the railway bubble have experience out of it.

From clipper to zifa you still had to manually check the ticket so couldn't check any quicker . Reports of fraud had to be made manually as well . The scanner should he able to check for you and tell you if a ticket is valid or not quickly meaning in theory you can check quicker . Who has more to gain from more tickets being checked ? Reports of fraud can also be generated automatically and uploaded in real time . There is also the data collected on passengers and fsres . All in the company is gaining a lot out of scanning . Some who have reached a deal to pay conductors are reporting it's saved them millions in digital fraud and part of that will be undoubtedly because of motivated staff going out there scanning huge volumes of tickets .
And saving money for an industry in a dire financial mess.

Maybe scanning tickets might save jobs?
 

wobman

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You bang on repeatedly about the railway bubble but that’s the same bubble that you are a part of. How much do you think you’d be paid in the outside world?
Less than half I would think for the limited skill set required, it takes 12 months to train up a driver. A few days for roster clerks and diagramming administration staff.
 

muz379

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Some of us in the railway bubble have experience out of it.


And saving money for an industry in a dire financial mess.

Maybe scanning tickets might save jobs?
I'm sure that applies for the majority of traincrew as well to be fair . At least in my anecdotal experience it does hence why people flock to the industry .

I work with a lot of teachers who were disgruntled in the profession . Indeed there have been shortages of teachers to such an extent that hefty financial incentives have been necessary to fill the shortages . Perhaps the "just get on with it " mentality you seem to have because of experience outside of the "railway bubble" isnt a sustainable way to run a job .

If scanning was the way to save jobs why aren't the industry saying that ? Indeed we keep coming back to this bit in the case of TPE it was them that put it on the table on the first place .
 

Falcon1200

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But knowing plenty of my colleagues will happily choose to work the Sunday for overtime, why should I feel the need to be compelled to work Sundays?
It works the same in loads of industries. Let those that want to chase the dollar work the Sundays etc and everyone is happy. If occasionally not enough volunteer then its hardly the end of the world. Better diagramming would help to solve the problem and encourage more to volunteer in the first place.

No-one is compelled to work Sundays, ever; Anyone who wishes to be off on that day should simply not apply for a job which requires working that day ! And if not enough staff volunteer for Sunday shifts it may not be the end of the world for the staff, but it can be extremely disruptive to intending passengers (who have hardly been mentioned in this debate.....)

Oh, and when I signed up and signed my contract of employment, it was very clear Sundays where voluntary.

That is a serious failing on the part of the TOC's conditions of service; I worked Sundays throughout my railway career, always outside the working week, but it was always made crystal clear that these shifts were compulsory if no other cover could be arranged. And while I would have been perfectly happy for Sundays to become part of the working week and therefore have more days off, I would not have been happy with the loss of take-home pay that would have resulted; Surely, should Sundays be changed from overtime shifts to within the working week staff cannot expect their earnings to be maintained at the same level for working fewer shifts ?

(For info, at the end of my career I was one of five on a job requiring 24/7/365 coverage, meaning that on three out of every five Sundays I was either finishing a 12-hour night shift, working a 12-hour day shift, or starting a 12-hour night shift. And that was before any additional Sunday shifts to cover holidays, sickness, vacancies etc).
 

D1537

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That sucks, but I’m not sure what teachers’ pay has to do with railway industrial disputes. It sounds as though you’d like to see other people made worse off, rather than improving things for yourself.
Fairly obviously, because I was replying to the poster who was trying to claim that the public sector had all received good pay rises as opposed to railway staff, which I was pointing out was incorrect.
 

wobman

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No-one is compelled to work Sundays, ever; Anyone who wishes to be off on that day should simply not apply for a job which requires working that day ! And if not enough staff volunteer for Sunday shifts it may not be the end of the world for the staff, but it can be extremely disruptive to intending passengers (who have hardly been mentioned in this debate.....)



That is a serious failing on the part of the TOC's conditions of service; I worked Sundays throughout my railway career, always outside the working week, but it was always made crystal clear that these shifts were compulsory if no other cover could be arranged. And while I would have been perfectly happy for Sundays to become part of the working week and therefore have more days off, I would not have been happy with the loss of take-home pay that would have resulted; Surely, should Sundays be changed from overtime shifts to within the working week staff cannot expect their earnings to be maintained at the same level for working fewer shifts ?

(For info, at the end of my career I was one of five on a job requiring 24/7/365 coverage, meaning that on three out of every five Sundays I was either finishing a 12-hour night shift, working a 12-hour day shift, or starting a 12-hour night shift. And that was before any additional Sunday shifts to cover holidays, sickness, vacancies etc).
For info I work 1 in 3 sundays as committed overtime and when I began on the railways Sunday was not compulsory overtime. It was voluntary and my conditions have changed since I began working in the industry. The problem is trains on Sundays are virtually empty until 10am onwards, the demand for Sunday travel, so having a full timetable on a Sunday would be a huge waste of resources.
 

Carlisle

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I’m Likewise on the opposite scale of the spectrum I’m fairly young in my late twenties with a fairly recent degree in marketing, and an employment background in management and HR. The railway isn’t my only employment option, and if pushed to poor working conditions I certainly wouldn’t be staying.
If you chose a railway career you now consider your vastly over qualified for, it’s entirely your personal decision what to do next & not really the TOCs main problem unless they’d offered you a line of promotion they’ve subsequently not honoured.
 
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BHXDMT

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The ticket scanning thing has already been done to death earlier in this thread , its worth a heck of a lot to the TOC's , the TOC in question here actually come up with the idea of the incentive payment .

Quite , that other operator even reported that it had saved them £10million in digital fraud . Its clearly quite valiable to tocs .

As for the ticket check thing that is just taking the pi**. Ticket checking is just ticket checking by whatever means. Old methods of ticket checking help the company the same as new methods so a pair of eyes is the same as using the mobile device. I think it's a case of pushing your luck.

Sorry but plenty of people in this thread have explained exactly why payment for scanning is a good idea. As @muz379 says, it's stopping millions of pounds of digital fraud. Northern are very happy with the results of their trial of payment per scan, as far as I know.

Old methods of checking tickets are absolutely not the same. If I visually inspect a mobile ticket, that's all it is, a visual inspection - it isn't marked as used like a paper ticket would be. A customer can then go into the Trainline app etc and refund it, or use it again and again until someone does scan it and mark it as used. Likewise, if its a fraudulent ticket it may look incredibly convincing from a visual inspection and is likely to be accepted. Not so if it doesn't scan! I'm talented, but I can't currently mark electronic tickets as used with my eyeballs. That means the TOCs are losing £££££.

Incentives for scanning (just like commission for selling tickets) should absolutely be given, so that the fraudsters and the chancers are caught out more frequently and HM Treasury can get their precious money back.
 
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Horizon22

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This dispute is largely about pay parity for Sunday working. I am not sure how a professional that doesn't work Sundays is comparable. If your union isn't strong enough to stand up to the government maybe you should do something about it?

The railway often gets compared to other public sector workers such as the NHS. It should be noted that NHS staff get unsocial hours payments. These also includes payments for working after 8pm on weekdays and working Saturdays at at least 30% extra. Sundays at least 60% extra. I am sure TPE conductors would take this over payment for scans.

A significant proportion of a conductors take home pay at TPE was made from onboard ticket sales. Up until a few years ago passengers could legitimately buy on board (at full anytime rate) without risk of penalty fares or prosecution. The penalty fares scheme has taken that away from them, so many have seen a fall in income for doing the same amount of work, whilst 3rd party company's such as the Trainline have been taking that commission. Many conductors are on a lower actual take home pay for the same hours than 3 years ago.

The railway gets unsociable allowances too. These are done in a whole range of different ways. Sometimes it's a one-off payment, sometimes its rolled in as a % of your base salary as an "unsociaL hours" payment, and sometimes its the specific bits (e.g nights & Sundays). Sometimes the overall salary takes this into account and the base would be lower without

I've worked with Sundays inside, Sundays committed and Sundays outside and in a few roles I haven't been required to work Sundays (and no I'm not crew now, but I work with them). To me it's made no major difference; I understand I am a shift-worker in an public service industry for which working Sundays are important. Maybe that's just me and my personal mentality but I think it is only right. I think many staff have it compratively well-off and don't realise how good it is, so I find these discussions a bit grating. I am rostered to work them and yes occasionally I have missed social events or time with friends/family. Or I swap them out in good time where possible. It is the nature of the beast - if you don't want to do that in my eyes you take a different role, but you'll get the resultant pay cut too, there are swings and roundabouts. There needs to be reasonable compromise.

I don't doubt that with inflation reaching the heights that it is, that actually some sort of pay rises should be on the cards as a matter of general fairness but I just think it will be an incredibly hard sell considering how many £bn has been spent on the railway the past few years and how no franchises TOCs were required to furlough staff. To emphasise how much that cost, look at what happened to the OA operators - they pretty much compltely stopped providing a service at all during the lockdowns.

There are large numbers of drivers in the UK that are ex-BR and are approaching retirement age that will be leaving in large numbers over the next few years, those are the sort of people who would not return to work in fire and rehire practices.

Likewise on the opposite scale of the spectrum I’m fairly young in my late twenties with a fairly recent degree in marketing, and an employment background in management and HR. The railway isn’t my only employment option, and if pushed to poor working conditions I certainly wouldn’t be staying.

Interesting perspective. I've met and spoken to a number of new starters (anecdotal warning!) in recent months many of whom are in their 20s and 30s who can't believe how good it is outside their previous industries which include healthcare, retail and other transport (buses/airlines), many of which had no choice in the matter of Sundays.

The stunning amount of applications the railway recieves for roles like drivers (and indeed junior roles too, albeit to a lesser extent) shows that it is still an attractive industry. Personally - although I wouldn't want it too - I could see T&Cs getting moderatetly worse and it still being a very attractive option for many and TOCs still sifting through quality applicatons.
 
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greyman42

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But what is the relevance of the contractual arrangements to the question of whether or not the overtime is forced? It has been explained above why this type of overtime is regarded as forced rather than voluntary.
Just because some people regard the overtime as forced, does not mean that it is. This is why i ask about T&C's. They put to bed the argument of whether overtime is voluntary or contractual.

Oh, and when I signed up and signed my contract of employment, it was very clear Sundays where voluntary. So changing the goal posts now isn't gonna happen, sorry.
Has your contract of employment changed since you signed up?
 

wobman

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The committed Sundays are rostered inside the link, it's a form of forced overtime. If you don't want to work the Sunday you can throw it in. but if there's not enough volunteers or you cant arrange your own cover,YOU have to work that Sunday.

Many Tocs change there T&Cs quite regularly to suit their operational needs via negotiating with the unions involved, in many cases Sundays were voluntary now they are committed or part of the working week.

Adding Sunday to the working week is very expensive to Tocs, it require a bit recruitment drive and rise in depot complements to coverage extra work.
 

DorkingMain

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The committed Sundays are rostered inside the link, it's a form of forced overtime. If you don't want to work the Sunday you can throw it in. but if there's not enough volunteers or you cant arrange your own cover,YOU have to work that Sunday.

Many Tocs change there T&Cs quite regularly to suit their operational needs via negotiating with the unions involved, in many cases Sundays were voluntary now they are committed or part of the working week.

Adding Sunday to the working week is very expensive to Tocs, it require a bit recruitment drive and rise in depot complements to coverage extra work.
Bang on. Many people here seem to have invented this fantasy that it's "the unions" that have created these arrangements, but ultimately it's companies wanting to hire as few staff as possible. Relying on rest day working + Sundays outside is still cheaper than increasing staff numbers.

+ if you say to a load of people "we're changing the terms of your employment, if you don't like it screw off" - then plenty of people will screw off, and we'll be back to traincrew shortages, reduced timetables and "Why can't those lazy traincrew just turn up to work?"
 

wobman

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Bang on. Many people here seem to have invented this fantasy that it's "the unions" that have created these arrangements, but ultimately it's companies wanting to hire as few staff as possible. Relying on rest day working + Sundays outside is still cheaper than increasing staff numbers.

+ if you say to a load of people "we're changing the terms of your employment, if you don't like it screw off" - then plenty of people will screw off, and we'll be back to traincrew shortages, reduced timetables and "Why can't those lazy traincrew just turn up to work?"
Thanks mate. we all know Unions will always want more recruitment as it means more income for them from subscriptions, it'd quite amusing how many posters demonise the unions on here all the time. But they don't understand what's behind these flawed agreements.
 

sciisfun

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maybe we should offer a slightly lower paid grade that offers mon-fri with hours scheduled between say 6am and 8pm. Those who value not working weekends and spending time with family should then snap it up. I'm paid less than my fellow shift engineers (not railway but still public transport) in exchange for working fixed days and not weekends, early and lates. I recently turned down a position within TPE for a few reasons (one of which being a lack of communication and clarity during the process) but also because, despite being nearly a 10K gross pay increase, one in 4 working weeks was overnight was a dealbreaker with me. I know I'm not alone, money isn't the only factor that people respond to!
 

baz962

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It does? time for me to become a train driver then!
Unfortunately it's only for old timers that had Sundays outside. Most new drivers have to work some Sundays. Some tocs have them outside , but if I'm not mistaken the Sundays are committed. So if you can cover them you don't have to do them , but if you can't you do have to.
 

sciisfun

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Unfortunately it's only for old timers that had Sundays outside. Most new drivers have to work some Sundays. Some tocs have them outside , but if I'm not mistaken the Sundays are committed. So if you can cover them you don't have to do them , but if you can't you do have to.
which takes me back to my original comment then, offer those who don't want to work weekends or late nights a slightly lower pay, and give those who do want to a slightly higher pay. there'll be plenty of people who will be happy to be scheduled on a sunday and get a day midweek off, so you have a pool of people who will cover the more unsociable and quieter hours as well as evenings and weekends, maybe even offer them fixed early or lates (better sleep pattern = better drivers?), then you also have a pool of people who are scheduled to work during the day and week, when you have 'peak' loadings. If I could be guaranteed permanent early's I'd be fine, Im happy getting up early, but struggle to stay up late and still be useful.
 
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