Transpennine Route Upgrade and Electrification updates

[61653 HTAFC]

Technically the Westbound section does have a small overtake option at Marsden, albeit rather too small to be effective especially when there are late running services. Reusing the two spare bores at Standedge would give a few miles more overtaking, however wasn't that ruled out a bit ago because (wait for it...) the line was to be electrified? Plus I seem to remember someone saying that they were in fairly poor condition compared to the main 1894 bore, and might prove expensive to bring up to running standard which was part of the justification for wiring the existing operational section in the first place?

The Up loop at Marsden is a damn sight better than the Down loop at Dewsbury, which is just at the station with almost no overlap.

Of the disused bores at Standedge, one of them is used for emergency access to both the operational railway tunnel and the canal tunnel: so I'd assume that one is in better shape than the other. This use might pose a problem for reopening both, though a slab-track + concrete "decking" solution might allow a fire appliance to enter 'tramway-style' if needed (a line block would be required obviously, though one assumes that in the event of an emergency in the canal tunnel the railway would be suspended anyway as a matter of course).

 

[59CosG95]

The Up loop at Marsden is a damn sight better than the Down loop at Dewsbury, which is just at the station with almost no overlap.

Of the disused bores at Standedge, one of them is used for emergency access to both the operational railway tunnel and the canal tunnel: so I'd assume that one is in better shape than the other. This use might pose a problem for reopening both, though a slab-track + concrete "decking" solution might allow a fire appliance to enter 'tramway-style' if needed (a line block would be required obviously, though one assumes that in the event of an emergency in the canal tunnel the railway would be suspended anyway as a matter of course).

I would assume, if something less drastic requires one or more bores to be shut, that all 3 bores will be bi-directional for maximum flexibility.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I would assume, if something less drastic requires one or more bores to be shut, that all 3 bores will be bi-directional for maximum flexibility.

Every so often, West Yorkshire Fire Service hold a training exercise in Standedge tunnels and drive an appliance up one of the disused bores. I'm not sure how they get the appliance down there, though it may require a line block anyway (training exercises timed to coincide with engineering work maybe).

 

[billh]

Every so often, West Yorkshire Fire Service hold a training exercise in Standedge tunnels and drive an appliance up one of the disused bores. I'm not sure how they get the appliance down there, though it may require a line block anyway (training exercises timed to coincide with engineering work maybe).

Canal & River Trust routinely drive a van through one disused tunnel in order to check progress of any boats in the canal tunnel. There are several adits or side connections between the tunnels where a visual check is made on boats by the van driver and position reported to the " control office" at the Marsden end.
It is quite an experience to be on a boat passing a side passage to the live railway tunnel as a train thunders through, its wheels a matter of a very few feet from your head.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Canal & River Trust routinely drive a van through one disused tunnel in order to check progress of any boats in the canal tunnel. There are several adits or side connections between the tunnels where a visual check is made on boats by the van driver and position reported to the " control office" at the Marsden end.
It is quite an experience to be on a boat passing a side passage to the live railway tunnel as a train thunders through, its wheels a matter of a very few feet from your head.

It's something I really ought to have experienced by now considering how local I am... My query though is more about how a large vehicle such as a fire appliance gains access in order to enter the tunnel, and whether this impacts on operation of the railway.

 

[BMIFlyer]

Access point from the road near the East end Curve - no need for railway closure. Appliance fits through perfectly.

 

[Ploughman]

Every so often, West Yorkshire Fire Service hold a training exercise in Standedge tunnels and drive an appliance up one of the disused bores. I'm not sure how they get the appliance down there, though it may require a line block anyway (training exercises timed to coincide with engineering work maybe).

Access is possible with no effect on the railway for smaller vehicles.
Certainly up to 2007 Access was possible from both ends of the tunnel to the single track bores by road vehicles up to what was HGV2.
Access for Articulated vehicles was limited to the West end only but it was possible to drive through to the East end, turn round and exit via the West end again. We had to do this to remove scrap rails and other materials from the site.
Usual practice is drive through with a one way system in place.
I have driven through in various vans and cars over the years, smaller vehicles do have the possibility of using the Cathedral to turn round if needed, large vehicles have to do the full circuit or use the Marsden or West end access points.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Much appreciated, all. Always wondered what the restrictions were: imagine it's quite daunting driving through there!

 

[Leedslad_]

New here (and a layman commuter rather than rail enthusiast).

I understand the whole route won't be fully electrified, but I wondered thoughts on chances of uninterrupted electrification from Huddersfield to Leeds. So far as I can tell the only major tunnel is Morley tunnel and that appears to have quite some headroom so could be electrified??

Would this in turn potentially benefit stopping services between Leeds and Huddersfield ?

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Welcome -not quite as simple as the tunnel -it is 25kV wires near all the houses too.

 

[snowball]

I understand the whole route won't be fully electrified

We don't really know yet. The GRIP 3 report submitted to the DfT in December contains a number of options but we don't know what they are. However Grayling suggested last August (when cancelling MML, Swansea and Windermere) that the outcome is unlikely to be continuous electrification throughout.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

New here (and a layman commuter rather than rail enthusiast).

I understand the whole route won't be fully electrified, but I wondered thoughts on chances of uninterrupted electrification from Huddersfield to Leeds. So far as I can tell the only major tunnel is Morley tunnel and that appears to have quite some headroom so could be electrified??

Would this in turn potentially benefit stopping services between Leeds and Huddersfield ?

Morley tunnel isn't as generous clearance-wise as it appears as viewed from the platforms or footbridge. The first 10m or so of tunnel, with the larger portal, is in fact a bridge carrying the link-road to the former factory. Beyond that, the tunnel is fairly similar to the typical clearances of double-track Victorian bores.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Morley tunnel isn't as generous clearance-wise as it appears as viewed from the platforms or footbridge. The first 10m or so of tunnel, with the larger portal, is in fact a bridge carrying the link-road to the former factory. Beyond that, the tunnel is fairly similar to the typical clearances of double-track Victorian bores.

Indeed, youh have to look close to notice it though.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Welcome -not quite as simple as the tunnel -it is 25kV wires near all the houses too.

Not on the huddersfield leeds section. That is at mossley on huddersfield stalybridge section.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Sorry about that. What would be useful is a summary of relatively easy bits and the not so easy bits. As I understand it, please correct me if I am wrong, Leeds to York/Selby is relatively easy. Man Vic to Heyrod grid feeder is not bad though lots of time saving possible by removing the slow sections etc.

 

[rich r]

Indeed - a lot of the bridges on the entire Leeds-Hull section were made electrification-ready years ago, when it was previously expected to happen.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Heyrod Grid Feeder to Huddersfield – difficult also includes Standedge tunnels

Huddersfield to Ravensthorpe - moderately difficult

 

[nr758123]

Heyrod Grid Feeder to Huddersfield – difficult also includes Standedge tunnels

Huddersfield to Ravensthorpe - moderately difficult

So would it be fair to say that the sections where electrification would be of most benefit are also the ones which would be the most difficult (and expensive?) to electrify?

 

[59CosG95]

So would it be fair to say that the sections where electrification would be of most benefit are also the ones which would be the most difficult (and expensive?) to electrify?

Absolutely - if it were easy, common sense in all its rarity would have struck the DfT and wires would have been up donkeys' years ago if the business case had been pressed.

 

[nr758123]

"Nothing worthwhile is easy" - credited variously to Nicholas Sparks (never heard of him but an appropriate name in this context) or Theodore Roosevelt

 

[Allwinter_Kit]

Are the benefits of a rolling programme included in BCRs? As in, maintaining knowledge, teams, etc. and keeping everyone in work rather than having to disband and reconvene teams for stop/start programmes?

If not it really should be!

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Are the benefits of a rolling programme included in BCRs? As in, maintaining knowledge, teams, etc. and keeping everyone in work rather than having to disband and reconvene teams for stop/start programmes? If not it really should be!

Most/many (but not all) on here and in the railway enthusiasts fraternity in general, with me being one of the biggest cheerleaders of all, are proponents of a rolling programme of electrification subject to a reasonably OK business case, so you are mainly preaching to the choir. But to confirm, yes, I absolutely agree, the benefits of a continuous slow but a steady rolling program should be included in the BCR/business case.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Heyrod Grid Feeder to Huddersfield – difficult also includes Standedge tunnels

Huddersfield to Ravensthorpe - moderately difficult

The difficulty from HUD to RVN is less about structures and so on, and more to do with the planned alterations along that section. The Whitacre Street bridge (Deighton station) has had weight restrictions on it for a number of years so will need rebuilding anyway. Coupled with the planned 4-tracking along there, i don't see it as being a major hurdle as there'll be a lot of changes in any case.

 

[ianhr]

The two main tunnels are presumably Standedge and Morley. I fail to see why wiring tunnels has suddenly become an unsurmountable obstacle. The existing 25kV electrified system includes probably 10s of kms of tunnels in total which were never presented as insuperable obstacles in the past. Including the approaches to Euston, King's Cross, Liverpool Street and St. Pancras, Kilsby, Stoke, both routes through Central Glasgow etc etc. The Severn Tunnel was one of the first things to be dealt with on the GW scheme. If the railway industry is failing to challenge Grayling and the DfT on this it is nothing short of political cowardice.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The two main tunnels are presumably Standedge and Morley. I fail to see why wiring tunnels has suddenly become an unsurmountable obstacle. The existing 25kV electrified system includes probably 10s of kms of tunnels in total which were never presented as insuperable obstacles in the past. Including the approaches to Euston, King's Cross, Liverpool Street and St. Pancras, Kilsby, Stoke, both routes through Central Glasgow etc etc. The Severn Tunnel was one of the first things to be dealt with on the GW scheme. If the railway industry is failing to challenge Grayling and the DfT on this it is nothing short of political cowardice.

Agree with this. Considering the terrain, it's surprising how few tunnels are on the route. Other than the two mentioned and the few around Stalybridge the only significant tunnels en-route are the two West of Huddersfield, neither of which are that long. The issues with electrifying through tunnels is clearances, but even so it's hardly an unknown quantity.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

New here (and a layman commuter rather than rail enthusiast).
I understand the whole route won't be fully electrified, but I wondered thoughts on chances of uninterrupted electrification from Huddersfield to Leeds. So far as I can tell the only major tunnel is Morley tunnel and that appears to have quite some headroom so could be electrified??

The difficulty from HUD to RVN is less about structures and so on, and more to do with the planned alterations along that section. The Whitacre Street bridge (Deighton station) has had weight restrictions on it for a number of years so will need rebuilding anyway. Coupled with the planned 4-tracking along there, i don't see it as being a major hurdle as there'll be a lot of changes in any case.

The two main tunnels are presumably Standedge and Morley. I fail to see why wiring tunnels has suddenly become an unsurmountable obstacle. The existing 25kV electrified system includes probably 10s of kms of tunnels in total which were never presented as insuperable obstacles in the past. Including the approaches to Euston, King's Cross, Liverpool Street and St. Pancras, Kilsby, Stoke, both routes through Central Glasgow etc etc. The Severn Tunnel was one of the first things to be dealt with on the GW scheme. If the railway industry is failing to challenge Grayling and the DfT on this it is nothing short of political cowardice.

I understand -I was trying to keep it relatively simple for the OP especially as he is new to the board never mind the thread, and admits to just being layman commuter.

 

[xotGD]

Most/many (but not all) on here and in the railway enthusiasts fraternity in general, with me being one of the biggest cheerleaders of all, are proponents of a rolling programme of electrification subject to a reasonably OK business case, so you are mainly preaching to the choir. But to confirm, yes, I absolutely agree, the benefits of a continuous slow but a steady rolling program should be included in the BCR/business case.

I'll post the counter viewpoint. As an enthusiast, anticipating the introduction of 68s across the Pennines, the last thing I want is electrification of the route!

 

[themiller]

I'll post the counter viewpoint. As an enthusiast, anticipating the introduction of 68s across the Pennines, the last thing I want is electrification of the route!

You're going to get your wish regarding 68s. But wouldn't it be nice to get some electrics in a few years when the novelty of the diesel locos has worn off?

 

[59CosG95]

You're going to get your wish regarding 68s. But wouldn't it be nice to get some electrics in a few years when the novelty of the diesel locos has worn off?

Indeed - as sad a fact as it is, the railway isn't run for enthusiasts.
I'm sure it's been done to death as well that the Mk5a's have been built to a 125mph spec so that a fast enough electric/diesel (more likely the former) can take over once the routes they operate on are fully electrified...

 

[mike57]

Probably this is quite an involved question, but what journey time could be achieved between York-Leeds -Manchester using the existing route and improving it:

Assume the following constraints:
Keep to the current alignment, no major land grab or demolition.
Provide 4 tracks at points to allow overtaking. e.g. Crossgates, Mirfield and west towards Huddersfield, Slaithwaite, Marsden, Diggle
Signaling improvements to allow line speed to be increased to the maximum allowed by the alignment
Open one or both of the old Standedge tunnels to allow more capacity
Junction improvements
Rolling stock maximum speed and acceleration to suit improved route.

Would 90mph be achievable over much of the route, certainly could get 125mph between York and Church Fenton.

So what could be done given the will and the money. If you could get down to 35-38mins Leeds - Manchester with one stop (Huddersfield) using the existing route then HS3 seems a very expensive proposition and it is years away anyway. The thing with incremental improvements they begin to deliver straight away.