TransPennine South route ‘forgotten about’?

[londonmidland]

Have TransPennine Express totally given up on running a reliable timetable on their South route?

Not only are there large gaps between services, but the majority of their services (which do run and aren’t cancelled) are only formed of three coaches. Which of course leads to massive overcrowding issues.

Luckily, between Manchester and Sheffield, there is the alternative Northern and East Midlands Railway services, however this causes overcrowding on their services.

For a short time TPE were running an hourly and reliable service, with the majority of services being formed of 6 coaches, however this is a thing of the past.

 

[nr758123]

The same question might equally validly be asked about their other routes.

 

[Geeves]

As nr758123 says all the routes that TPE serve have taken a battering while there's no rest day work or overtime, every other train through Victoria is cancelled currently.

 

[py_megapixel]

The staffing issues have been discussed in other threads obviously.

But I do feel there is no excuse for the short-forming. When the franchise was awarded, TPE's orders from CAF and Hitachi were supposed to be enough to run their full timetable and see off most of the Desiros. They're currently running a slightly reduced timetable and still have almost all of the Desiros. What on earth is going on?

 

[tbtc]

It’s always been the lowest route in their priorities, Remembering the days of First running the two coach 170s as the price that they paid for finding some three coach 185s to take over the route from Oxenholme to Glasgow/ Edinburgh (to cover for Virgin switching more Voyagers to their Chester route).

At least EMR have their act together a bit more now, plus Northern have some 195s on the House Valley service instead of thirty metre 142s

I agree with @py_megapixel ~ staffing issues are frustrating but TPE should have more surplus stock than pretty much any TOC, so I don’t know why they are running single sets, other than because that’d require Another Guard?

Nobody seems to want to take ownership of the Hope Valley route though, the operation of the Nottingham to Liverpool service still seems unresolved (?), the future of the 185s needs sorting out but then they don’t need fifty one of them just to run to Cleethorpes…. So what’s the plan?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Isn't the route due to be extended to Liverpool via the CLC, with 68/Mk5 operation (most of which are presently parked up out of use)?

 

[Halish Railway]

Isn't the route due to be extended to Liverpool via the CLC, with 68/Mk5 operation (most of which are presently parked up out of use)?

Yes, from December.

Realtime Trains | 1B72 0919 Liverpool Lime Street to Cleethorpes | 15/12/2022

Real-time train running information for 1B72 0919 departure from Liverpool Lime Street to Cleethorpes on 15/12/2022. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

The 13:19 departure from Liverpool is down as an ECS movement, rather than a passenger service, although I’d imagine that’d be used as a driver training path which can become a passenger service in due course.

One of the benefits of the Hope Valley improvement scheme is that a third express passenger train can run each hour between Manchester and Sheffield. Hopefully this can improve the Hope Valley’s fortunes (no pun intended), along with a reliable hourly 5/6 carriage Liverpool to Cleethorpes TPE service and the Liverpool to Nottingham EMR service being operated by a 5 carriage 158 as has been suggested. It is likely that as long as TRU is ongoing, that third path will be used as a Manchester to York and beyond service to keep passengers on the move during lengthy possessions, so busy services will probably still be the norm in years to come.

 

[RHolmes]

I agree with @py_megapixel ~ staffing issues are frustrating but TPE should have more surplus stock than pretty much any TOC, so I don’t know why they are running single sets, other than because that’d require Another Guard?

Double 185 sets only require a single guard.

The main issue is driver resources. Trains are being left in the wrong part of the network such as Sheffield sidings when services are cancelled due to do driver and therefore are not in the correct depot to start the next days diagram. For example some early morning services start as a single set and attatch to another ready for the morning peak, but if one of the two drivers is missing, the result is the train stays a single set.

Nobody seems to want to take ownership of the Hope Valley route though, the operation of the Nottingham to Liverpool service still seems unresolved (?), the future of the 185s needs sorting out but then they don’t need fifty one of them just to run to Cleethorpes…. So what’s the plan?
Liverpool to Cleethorpes
Liverpool to Hull
Airport to Saltburn
Huddersfield locals
TPRU diversion trains and potential future route extensions

Isn't the route due to be extended to Liverpool via the CLC, with 68/Mk5 operation (most of which are presently parked up out of use)?

Yes and no. It will be a mix of 68/MK5 and 185’s. Only two trains on the circuit will be 68/MK5 in the current timetable plan, with 50% from March 23 and that’s still subject to change.

 

[LowLevel]

It’s always been the lowest route in their priorities, Remembering the days of First running the two coach 170s as the price that they paid for finding some three coach 185s to take over the route from Oxenholme to Glasgow/ Edinburgh (to cover for Virgin switching more Voyagers to their Chester route).

At least EMR have their act together a bit more now, plus Northern have some 195s on the House Valley service instead of thirty metre 142s

I agree with @py_megapixel ~ staffing issues are frustrating but TPE should have more surplus stock than pretty much any TOC, so I don’t know why they are running single sets, other than because that’d require Another Guard?

Nobody seems to want to take ownership of the Hope Valley route though, the operation of the Nottingham to Liverpool service still seems unresolved (?), the future of the 185s needs sorting out but then they don’t need fifty one of them just to run to Cleethorpes…. So what’s the plan?

With EMR having now signed their National Rail Contract hopefully things will become a bit clearer as to direction of travel.

 

[py_megapixel]

Double 185 sets only require a single guard.

The main issue is driver resources. Trains are being left in the wrong part of the network such as Sheffield sidings when services are cancelled due to do driver and therefore are not in the correct depot to start the next days diagram. For example some early morning services start as a single set and attatch to another ready for the morning peak, but if one of the two drivers is missing, the result is the train stays a single set.

Can't the plans be altered so that the whole diagram is a double set then? If the rear set could always be locked out for the early morning services if the capacity is not needed and it is operationally desirable to do so.

 

[dk1]

Have TransPennine Express totally given up on running a reliable timetable on their South route?

I don’t think TPx are particularly prejudiced against the South route, they treat all the services they operate in equally the same dreadfully unreliable manner haha.

 

[plugwash]

The same question might equally validly be asked about their other routes.

The core north route has a relatively intensive TPE service. Manchester to preston has an intensive northern service. The ECML and WCML have long trains to/from London.

The south transpennine on the other hand has only 1 TPH from TPE and only limited service from other operators. 1TPH each from northern and EMR on the hope vally, the EMR trains are 4 car at best and frequently 2 car, I suspect the same is true of the northern ones (I don't tend to use the northern ones because they don't call at stockport). From sheffield to doncaster there are also crosscountry and northern services but I dunno what their capacity is like. The south transpennine is the only service on the direct route from Doncaster to Cleethorpes.

So I think when a cancellation and/or short form happens on the South it represents a much bigger disruption to most of the passengers.

York-Scarbourough is in a similar situation with an hourly TPE as it's only service and I have seen plenty of moaning about it on here in the recent past, I dunno what it's current situation is though.

 

[RailWonderer]

Isn't the route due to be extended to Liverpool via the CLC, with 68/Mk5 operation (most of which are presently parked up out of use)?

I had one on Wednesday from York to Leeds. They are on the 15:34 Scarborough to Man Vic and the shuttle to York all day.

 

[Jamesrob637]

Hazel Grove needs direct services to Sheffield which is only partially relevant to this thread I appreciate.

 

[yorksrob]

I noticed a single 185 turned up packed at Victoria on an evening Airport to Yorkshire service. As others have said, they should have enough stock to run full lenth trains.

 

[Jozhua]

I have got the impression in the past the south route is a bit forgotten about. It is a very busy line though, connecting two pretty major economic regions.

That said, just the longer 185 units have made a big difference to the quality of my journeys. Much more comfortable than they used to be!

Regional connectivity across the UK is poor in general - I got off an absolutely hellish Cross Country train last night...

Yes, from December.

Realtime Trains | 1B72 0919 Liverpool Lime Street to Cleethorpes | 15/12/2022

Real-time train running information for 1B72 0919 departure from Liverpool Lime Street to Cleethorpes on 15/12/2022. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

The 13:19 departure from Liverpool is down as an ECS movement, rather than a passenger service, although I’d imagine that’d be used as a driver training path which can become a passenger service in due course.

One of the benefits of the Hope Valley improvement scheme is that a third express passenger train can run each hour between Manchester and Sheffield. Hopefully this can improve the Hope Valley’s fortunes (no pun intended), along with a reliable hourly 5/6 carriage Liverpool to Cleethorpes TPE service and the Liverpool to Nottingham EMR service being operated by a 5 carriage 158 as has been suggested. It is likely that as long as TRU is ongoing, that third path will be used as a Manchester to York and beyond service to keep passengers on the move during lengthy possessions, so busy services will probably still be the norm in years to come.

That Manchester to York will have to probably be 2x802 units, or 3x185 to carry the required numbers of people during TRU possessions!

To be honest, with NPR now looking to happen some of the heavier work, besides track renewals/electrification might be surplus to requirements. But who knows with this government - things seem to constantly be in limbo, so I'm going to assume the TRU is all we'll get...

 

[RHolmes]

Can't the plans be altered so that the whole diagram is a double set then? If the rear set could always be locked out for the early morning services if the capacity is not needed and it is operationally desirable to do so.

No. There isn’t enough depot capacity to house the units other than York and Ardwick.

If you’ve got a 6, you might as well run a 6, it doesn’t cost anything more to actually have it in use.

That Manchester to York will have to probably be 2x802 units, or 3x185 to carry the required numbers of people during TRU possessions!

To be honest, with NPR now looking to happen some of the heavier work, besides track renewals/electrification might be surplus to requirements. But who knows with this government - things seem to constantly be in limbo, so I'm going to assume the TRU is all we'll get...

It won’t be. Maximum carriage length during TPRU will be 5 and 6. The simple reason? Because they can’t fit onto the platforms on the route, services will call at Brighouse instead of Huddersfield which has a 4/5 carriage length.

Class 185’s can not operate in passenger service in 9/12 car formation as it currently stands. They can run ECS in such circumstances but not with passengers onboard.

 

[Pacco]

Hazel Grove needs direct services to Sheffield which is only partially relevant to this thread I appreciate.

I think this would be a welcome addition as it's a good park and ride station. Is there space to fit in the pathing though? It's busy bit of line. The six-car unit fits the platforms as well.

 

[py_megapixel]

I think this would be a welcome addition as it's a good park and ride station. Is there space to fit in the pathing though? It's busy bit of line. The six-car unit fits the platforms as well.

I've wondered whether this would be useful as well. See https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/semi-fast-manchester-to-sheffield.238361/

 

[timothyw9]

TPE South Route Services running today 0615, 1018 then 1618 with every after that running apart from the last two (2220 and 2350) cancelled.

 

[py_megapixel]

TPE South Route Services running today 0615, 1018 then 1618 with every after that running apart from the last two (2220 and 2350) cancelled.

That is appalling. All of the East Midlands services are cancelled too because of the Unite strike. So anyone who wants to travel from Manchester to Sheffield in the late morning or mid-late afternoon has to go on the Hope Valley stopper (and, if they were travelling to somewhere in the Stockport area, double back)!.

In a world with joined-up thinking, Northern might have doubled up the stoppers to partially compensate, but they're mostly single 195s. And of the few TPE services that are running, all but one diagram is a single 185.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Based on the amount of stock TPE have running single units is criminal.

I have noticed cancellations no longer getting worse, there be the silver lining. But really really need some new drivers to come through as fast as possible.

 

[Tetchytyke]

It’s always been the lowest route in their priorities, Remembering the days of First running the two coach 170s

It's always been a lower priority- back in Northern Spirit days you'd often see a 156- but IIRC the 170s were allocated on the Hull-Manchesters. The real pain was when Chiltern nabbed the 170s.

It is appalling to see Ardwick full of stock and them sending a 3-car out. When the Middlesbrough is 3 instead of 6 its miserable.

 

[dosxuk]

Part of the problem is having three operators on the Sheffield - Manchester section, so they all assume if they drop or short-form a service it'll be fine as the other two will pick up the slack (e.g. TPE only providing rail replacement options from Doncaster - Cleethorpes if they cancel a service). But with all three operators doing this the route is a complete basket case. I'm convinced if there was a single operator along there then this mess would never have happened as they would see the whole picture rather than just their third of the problem.

It needs someone higher up the chain than the TOC's to be asking questions and demanding improvements, but it's nobody's pet project route so there's few who seem to know or care about the issues.

 

[HSP 2]

One of the things that I have noticed is that TPE are quick to send passenger to other ToCs but then want to hit you with an excess fare if you have to travel on their service.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Class 185’s can not operate in passenger service in 9/12 car formation as it currently stands. They can run ECS in such circumstances but not with passengers onboard.

I beg to differ but TPE can and indeed have operated 9 car 185s in service, albeit very rarely this has happened. The instance i know of involved a certain Scottish football team playing a manchester based team (when the big screen in piccadilly gardens was put out of action) and large chunks of the fanbase were staying in blackpool. This saw a 9 car and a 6 car operated duplicate services back to blackpool and even these were full and standing

 

[bunnahabhain]

Part of the problem is having three operators on the Sheffield - Manchester section, so they all assume if they drop or short-form a service it'll be fine as the other two will pick up the slack (e.g. TPE only providing rail replacement options from Doncaster - Cleethorpes if they cancel a service). But with all three operators doing this the route is a complete basket case. I'm convinced if there was a single operator along there then this mess would never have happened as they would see the whole picture rather than just their third of the problem.

It needs someone higher up the chain than the TOC's to be asking questions and demanding improvements, but it's nobody's pet project route so there's few who seem to know or care about the issues.

I think it's more complex than that, for example EMR didn't operate anything beyond Sheffield today, but also nothing on any route East of Nottingham, due to the fitters strike. If they operated 3 TPH over the Hope Valley you'd have ended up with 1 TPH but only between 6/7am till 6/7pm.

On weekends over the Summer EMR and Northern worked together to strengthen EMR services with 156s hired in from Northern to form 6 car services, to provide additional capacity from Liverpool to Sheffield when TPE weren't running.

During Northern having regular strikes a few years back EMR also added at Edale and a couple of other Hope Valley stations for a few months until it was decided if was severely impacting the advertised service too much and too often.

There's a lot of work behind the scenes at least from one angle, it just doesn't always appear so (even to me).

 

[RHolmes]

I beg to differ but TPE can and indeed have operated 9 car 185s in service, albeit very rarely this has happened. The instance i know of involved a certain Scottish football team playing a manchester based team (when the big screen in piccadilly gardens was put out of action) and large chunks of the fanbase were staying in blackpool. This saw a 9 car and a 6 car operated duplicate services back to blackpool and even these were full and standing

That was before the current C-Asdo system has been fitted, It hasn’t ever been used in service with 9 or 12 (in normal passenger service)

I had a 9 car accidental allocation in the summer due to a 185 set being accidentally left as a double and an amended diagram for it to connect to the train from the Leeds stopping service. The extra 3 carriages were removed at the earliest opportunity before re-coupling to the next 3.

 

[Bakerloo]

The same question might equally validly be asked about their other routes.

I was going to say the same thing

 

[nr758123]

Have TransPennine Express totally given up on running a reliable timetable on their South route?

I don't know whether you will feel reassured that TPE don't favour routes and locations where their senior management live.

Allegedly a senior manager in TPE is a near neighbour of mine in the Colne Valley.