Transpennine woes and a moan...

[Some guy]

Hope your not planning on using the WCML services today, horrendous amount of consecutive cancelled services.
Someone up thread mentioned managed decline, I think the DFT are presiding over a major collapse of Passenger services and seemingly still blocking the TOC from acting.

First group couldn’t careless either the money isn’t going out of their pockets so they’re cancelling for fun and it’s going to stay this way all the way until October when the DFT finally hands it back over to First group. This is proof nationalising isn’t going to work either

 

[skyhigh]

so they’re cancelling for fun

Have you got any proof of those accusations?

 

[VauxhallNova]

Presumably for TPE cancellations are cheaper than running services, making it quite a challenge to manage both costs and passenger experience.

 

[Some guy]

Have you got any proof of those accusations?

Well the fact they’re intercity services up the west coast only 4 made it out of Manchester airport out of 16 services. That’s beyond a disgrace

 

[skyhigh]

Well the fact they’re intercity services up the west coast only 4 made it out of Manchester airport out of 16 services. That’s beyond a disgrace

You suggested they are deliberately cancelling services they could run 'for fun'.

 

[DaveB10780]

You suggested they are deliberately cancelling services they could run 'for fun'.

I think it beggars belief that so many services are cancelled. I do not understand how the afternoon before services are running and on the day they are not. Are staff just calling in sick because they can? What are the staff who would have run the service doing, reading the newspaper? It is truly abysmal. Top manager should be held accountable and sacked immediately.

 

[Lancy99]

Plenty crew available. Company aren’t willing to pay for the rest days.

 

[Fokx]

Presumably for TPE cancellations are cheaper than running services, making it quite a challenge to manage both costs and passenger experience.

It’s not cost based it’s due largely due to traincrew disputes (but it’s not the fault of the train crew)

There’s still a large training backlog but the DfT won’t pay the trained staff to work overtime or rest days. So they’re not, they’re working their booked hours and not a minute more.

 

[Moonshot]

I think it beggars belief that so many services are cancelled. I do not understand how the afternoon before services are running and on the day they are not. Are staff just calling in sick because they can? What are the staff who would have run the service doing, reading the newspaper? It is truly abysmal. Top manager should be held accountable and sacked immediately.

And then what? The simple fact of the matter is that drivers are not working overtime. Clearly some senior hands are tied.

 

[VauxhallNova]

It’s not cost based it’s due largely due to traincrew disputes (but it’s not the fault of the train crew)

There’s still a large training backlog but the DfT won’t pay the trained staff to work overtime or rest days. So they’re not, they’re working their booked hours and not a minute more.

When's the backlog from?

 

[Fokx]

When's the backlog from?

Covid largely.

The other issue is competence. Due to amended diagrams which have pretty much been reduced since March 2020, most drivers have lost or are in the process of losing competency. It’s extremely rare that traincrew will sign the full route in one go anymore and some drivers no longer sign diversions (such as Chat Moss)

 

[Some guy]

Covid largely.

The other issue is competence. Due to amended diagrams which have pretty much been reduced since March 2020, most drivers have lost or are in the process of losing competency. It’s extremely rare that traincrew will sign the full route in one go anymore and some drivers no longer sign diversions (such as Chat Moss)

That’s the case for Preston TPE drivers they can only go via Bolton only but weirdly train conductors still can go via chat moss

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Conductor route knowledge isnt as in depth as drivers, however that doesn't change the fact many crews are losing that competence as diagrams are limited. For example where newcastle and liverpool crews used to work end to end, currently crews change at Leeds with newcastle crews no longer working west of huddersfield and liverpool crews no longer go up (or is that on the down?) the ECML beyond York and the associated route competency with those depots has now been lost. Newcastle crews dont work scarborough or redcar services, these were supposed to be in the hands of 68+mk5 which being an 802 depot newcastle dont sign so the associated routes have also lapsed. Likewise because no work has used cheshire lines Liverpool no longer sign via warrington. This is also having the effect of York copping cross depot spare cover which newcastle and Liverpool cant do because york still sign the full network and the diversions and this in itself is creating resentment between depots As York cop all of the work while liverpool and newcastle sit spare.

limiting route and traction knowledge is counter productive in my opinion. It prevents conductor flexibility especially during degraded working and potentially stops the job completely. Frequent crew changes is also counter productive as crews on short hops tend not to bother dealing with the train, passenger assists and issues get missed or forgotten about and continuity of service is lost. The network is also far more exposed to minor disruption snowballing when tight turnarounds and frequent crew changes results in a crew member being delayed or ends up out of position. This is purely in the hands of managerial decisions. The fact pay levels for rest day and sunday working isnt financially viable is the reason crews arent willing to work on their day off is an easy issue to fix and would quickly solve a lot of TPEs problems, but as long as the DfT are bankrolling the current stalemate then the shareholders are still getting their wedge and thats all that matters…..

 

[irish_rail]

Conductor route knowledge isnt as in depth as drivers, however that doesn't change the fact many crews are losing that competence as diagrams are limited. For example where newcastle and liverpool crews used to work end to end, currently crews change at Leeds with newcastle crews no longer working west of huddersfield and liverpool crews no longer go up (or is that on the down?) the ECML beyond York and the associated route competency with those depots has now been lost. Newcastle crews dont work scarborough or redcar services, these were supposed to be in the hands of 68+mk5 which being an 802 depot newcastle dont sign so the associated routes have also lapsed. Likewise because no work has used cheshire lines Liverpool no longer sign via warrington. This is also having the effect of York copping cross depot spare cover which newcastle and Liverpool cant do because york still sign the full network and the diversions and this in itself is creating resentment between depots As York cop all of the work while liverpool and newcastle sit spare.

limiting route and traction knowledge is counter productive in my opinion. It prevents conductor flexibility especially during degraded working and potentially stops the job completely. Frequent crew changes is also counter productive as crews on short hops tend not to bother dealing with the train, passenger assists and issues get missed or forgotten about and continuity of service is lost. The network is also far more exposed to minor disruption snowballing when tight turnarounds and frequent crew changes results in a crew member being delayed or ends up out of position. This is purely in the hands of managerial decisions. The fact pay levels for rest day and sunday working isnt financially viable is the reason crews arent willing to work on their day off is an easy issue to fix and would quickly solve a lot of TPEs problems, but as long as the DfT are bankrolling the current stalemate then the shareholders are still getting their wedge and thats all that matters…..

Spot on right and frequent crew changes are one of the biggest problems operationally on the railway right now. Minimising the number of crew per trip should be top priority, it only takes one link in the chain to break and the whole service comes crashing down....

 

[mike57]

Hope your not planning on using the WCML services today, horrendous amount of consecutive cancelled services.
Someone up thread mentioned managed decline, I think the DFT are presiding over a major collapse of Passenger services and seemingly still blocking the TOC from acting.

I managed to get out of trip at the last minute, what used to be an OK journey pre-2018 has now turned into a nightmare

 

[matacaster]

Spot on right and frequent crew changes are one of the biggest problems operationally on the railway right now. Minimising the number of crew per trip should be top priority, it only takes one link in the chain to break and the whole service comes crashing down....

I'll second that. Its very shortsighted.

 

[Some guy]

I'll second that. Its very shortsighted.

A lot of it is to do with keeping competency with different depots. TPE Liverpool for example work a lot of services from Leeds into Manchester airport and also operate a few of the Manchester to Huddersfield stoppers. It’s very backwards as Liverpool conductors for example before Covid ran services all the way to Newcastle and surprisingly it was a reliable service

 

[johntea]

I caught the 10:15 Manchester Victoria - Redcar Central service this morning and it was already full and standing at Victoria due to it being a 3 car only due to a fault with the other set, by the time it got to Huddersfield it was sardine time!

In fairness it was on time all the way but it seems Northern probably win for comfort these days over the 'premium' offering, a longer journey for sure but they also seem to be on almost permanent £7.50 advance ticket offerings to Leeds too

 

[YorkshireBear]

As I suspected would happen, 03:22 Leeds to airport cancelled. Minibus is very comfortable and due to low numbers direct to airport as a private taxi for our group. Arriving 20 minutes earlier than train even going via Huddersfield.

Makes you wonder what the point of that train is, just cancel it and give the engineers better maintenance access.

 

[Killingworth]

Another bad day again today, see attached. Hit and miss with the published timetable.

 

[Jamesrob637]

Today, many Cleethorpes to Manchester are 3-car instead of 6 despite units being stood around left right and centre. Shanbolic.

 

[mike57]

What I do not understand is how TPE continue to get away with cancelling large numbers of services on an already reduced timetable. Back in May 2018 when it all went badly wrong both Northern and TPE suffered a complete meltdown. Since then both operations have brought new rolling stock into service and negotiated Covid. Northern while not perfect are now performing to the point where you can plan a journey with the expectation that on most occasions you will arrive at your destination close to the advertised time, having travelled on a train which might be busy but you were probably able to get a seat. TPE seem to be still in same place as they were 4 years ago.

It is time that TPE were replaced, they have had the same opportunities as Northern to improve their operation but seem incapable of running even a reduced timetable. Reading the responses to this thread it is obvious that internal decisions such as working crews over part of a journey with multiple crew changes between for example Liverpool and Newcastle and loss of route knowledge are contributing to the situation, so why cannot the DfT who are accused of micromanaging, start demanding changes which result in a better service.

TPE are responsible for important regional services across the North and into Scotland. If the railways are to continue as a viable travel option then these services need to turn up according to the published timetable, with enough carriages that on most occasions you get a seat. TPE are not doing that, and seem to be blaming everyone but themselves, instead of saying "what do we need to do to run the best service with the resources at our disposal". This is not a one off issue caused by weather or infrastructure failure, its an ongoing daily situation.

 

[Killingworth]

Today, many Cleethorpes to Manchester are 3-car instead of 6 despite units being stood around left right and centre. Shanbolic.

Observing loadings west of Sheffield 3 car is currenty adequate for most services. A combination of cancellations and late trains is compounded by much lower fares on Northern's mostly 195 units. They are better value for the average leisure user who's journey is less time critical.

 

[Watershed]

Today, many Cleethorpes to Manchester are 3-car instead of 6 despite units being stood around left right and centre. Shanbolic.

Getting everything to run as 6 car on that route is difficult when there are driver resource issues. If the night turn at Cleethorpes is uncovered, units are going to be out of position and unfuelled. Similarly at Sheffield with turns to/from Crofton. Shunting at Sheffield itself, when the relieving crew are unavailable, is a whole other story (which explains some of the Meadowhall/Dore starters/finishers).

It's a very unfortunate combination of circumstances but unless and until a RDW agreement is back in place, nothing is going to substantively improve.

What I do not understand is how TPE continue to get away with cancelling large numbers of services on an already reduced timetable. Back in May 2018 when it all went badly wrong both Northern and TPE suffered a complete meltdown. Since then both operations have brought new rolling stock into service and negotiated Covid. Northern while not perfect are now performing to the point where you can plan a journey with the expectation that on most occasions you will arrive at your destination close to the advertised time, having travelled on a train which might be busy but you were probably able to get a seat. TPE seem to be still in same place as they were 4 years ago.

It is time that TPE were replaced, they have had the same opportunities as Northern to improve their operation but seem incapable of running even a reduced timetable. Reading the responses to this thread it is obvious that internal decisions such as working crews over part of a journey with multiple crew changes between for example Liverpool and Newcastle and loss of route knowledge are contributing to the situation, so why cannot the DfT who are accused of micromanaging, start demanding changes which result in a better service.

TPE are responsible for important regional services across the North and into Scotland. If the railways are to continue as a viable travel option then these services need to turn up according to the published timetable, with enough carriages that on most occasions you get a seat. TPE are not doing that, and seem to be blaming everyone but themselves, instead of saying "what do we need to do to run the best service with the resources at our disposal". This is not a one off issue caused by weather or infrastructure failure, its an ongoing daily situation.

I agree, it's a very poor customer experience at the moment. But what does "replacing" really mean? Who or what would actually change?

And what if these issues are largely attributable to constraints the DfT and Rail North have imposed? In that case nothing at all would change, even if it were to go over to the OLR.

The other difficulty is that in many cases (as on the Anglo Scot and South route), you might halve the timetable but only save a very small amount of resources. You'd basically have to run a skeleton service for it to be completely reliable without RDW. Is that the right approach?

 

[mike57]

But what does "replacing" really mean? Who or what would actually change?

Replacing means removing the issues/management which are causing the current problems (based on the capability of the current infrastructure). Comments have been made on here regearding how crewing arrangements are making the services less reliable, so sort it. The same with other issues. We cannot continue with a situation where the DfT and TPE blame each other, if that means OLR or some other mechanism, then thats what happens. If TPE and DfT come to some agreement as to how to address problems then that is an acceptable solution.

 

[Watershed]

Replacing means removing the issues/management which are causing the current problems (based on the capability of the current infrastructure). Comments have been made on here regearding how crewing arrangements are making the services less reliable, so sort it. The same with other issues. We cannot continue with a situation where the DfT and TPE blame each other, if that means OLR or some other mechanism, then thats what happens. If TPE and DfT come to some agreement as to how to address problems then that is an acceptable solution.

And if the management are doing exactly what the DfT are asking them to do? Fixing the crewing arrangements (which would certainly have some advantages, but also many associated costs and implications) would take years.

The situation is not all that different, in principle, to when Northern tried to introduce DCO. The DfT were able to use Northern as their punchbag for their own policy decision.

 

[mike57]

The other difficulty is that in many cases (as on the Anglo Scot and South route), you might halve the timetable but only save a very small amount of resources. You'd basically have to run a skeleton service for it to be completely reliable without RDW. Is that the right approach?

If thats what has to happen then yes in the short term. I need to be able to plan a journey 2 or more days out with reasonable confidence that the services will run. Continuing random cancellations mean people will either not travel, find alternative transport or have to travel anyway, take their chance and have a thoroughly unpleasent journey.

As I have stated before any operation outside the protected environment of the railways would be bankrupt in weeks if they were to operate in this way. All parties (Government, TOC, Unions, Employees) all need to understand that if a reasonable basic service cannot be run then the clamour to reduce subsidies will grow, and the next step is a Serpell Report situation and that is in none of the participants interest.

And if the management are doing exactly what the DfT are asking them to do?

This is the problem, all sides are blaming each other, while the service continues to be abysmal.

 

[Howardh]

Greenfield yesterday, one out of four running. Absolutely awful service.

 

[Watershed]

This is the problem, all sides are blaming each other, while the service continues to be abysmal.

I don't think the DfT can blame anyone else (or are indeed even trying to do so). They are the core reason for the current mess.

 

[VauxhallNova]

It always amuses me how, no matter what the timeframe, the issue is always someone else's fault when it comes to management of the Transpennine Express franchise.