Transport for Wales 769's

[konstant]

002 ran passenger service today with 003 out on staff training.

Tomorrow will be the first passenger earning service of 003, with 002 being used for training.

769002 (Staff Training)

5Z51 07+14 Rhymney Sidings – Cardiff Central

5Z52 09+03 Cardiff Central – Rhymney

5Z53 11+14 Rhymney Sidings – Cardiff Central

5Z54 13+03 Cardiff Central – Rhymney

769003 (Service)

2F08 07+14 Rhymney – Cardiff Central

5Z08 08+25 Cardiff Central – Canton CSD

5R12 09+27 Canton CSD – Cardiff Central

2R09 09+36 Cardiff Central – Rhymney

2F12 11+14 Rhymney – Cardiff Central

2R12 12+36 Cardiff Central – Rhymney

 

[Robert Ap Ioan]

Was it the pantograph car, - if so then most of the starting noise would have been from the motors, (magnetostriction of the case, and the drive pinions) and the transformer, (a 100Hz hum/buzz) that eventually is masked by the other motor noises.
If it was a continuous note from starting at about 400Hz (notes Gsharp or Bflat), then it would be the traction electronics.

It was the car in front of the pantograph car.

The noise people are hearing and complaining about after leaving a station is the compressor rattling on startup to replenish air lost in the on boarding process

That makes sense, thank you.

 

[PHILIPE]

Might be wrong but I thought the Raison d etre for the TfW 769s was to temporarily cover the 150/2s and the 140x on the Rhymney line, so that the TfW DMU fleet could be released for PRM'ing. That didn't happen and TfW had to PRM the units with the help of some Porterbrook loan 153s.

I was under the impression the 769s were an interim provision for TfW but am not sure how they intend to use all nine, particularly as it is only Rhymney conductors who currently sign them.

Lets hope the actually deliver reliability for TfW and prove the concept.

Although many changes have occurred along the way basically to help in facilitating the withdrawal of Pacers

 

[AdamWW]

Well I had a brief go on 002 today.

In the motor car it sounds just like an EMU (of course), which feels very odd on a non-electrified line.

Very odd watching one go past with it sounding like a DMU, then an EMU, then a DMU again as the different coaches go past.

I look forward to a longer trip sometime.

 

[Chris125]

Did 769002 manage the whole day?

 

[PHILIPE]

Did 769002 manage the whole day?

Up until lunchtime when it was scheduled to finish

 

[sftfan1909]

Is 003 out as planned?

 

[craigybagel]

Is 003 out as planned?

It is indeed. 003 in service today, and 002 on training runs.

 

[adc82140]

I've slightly lost track- how many units are now accepted for passenger traffic?

 

[DustyBin]

They still make the humming sound as heard at the 11 second mark on this video of 319372 departing from Flitwick. I think it's the thyristor control? Worth noting that a 769 doesn't accelerate anywhere near this fast!

Sorry OT but I used to travel on these from central London south around the Catford loop (and back). They were never poor performers (lacked traction in the wet at times though!) so I never understood why they gained such a poor reputation with Northern? They’d leave a Sprinter standing, and go on to 100mph!

 

[anthony263]

I've slightly lost track- how many units are now accepted for passenger traffic?

Just 2 002 and 003

 

[Bikeman78]

Sorry OT but I used to travel on these from central London south around the Catford loop (and back). They were never poor performers (lacked traction in the wet at times though!) so I never understood why they gained such a poor reputation with Northern? They’d leave a Sprinter standing, and go on to 100mph!

I agree. I was never a fan of the 319s on the Brighton line but slow isn't a word that I'd associate with them. I had a few runs on them in their latter years for old times sake and I had some cracking runs. They did struggle with wet rails though. Wheel flats were a common feature.

The 319s motors add up to 1324hp. The two engines on a 769 total 1046 hp and of course the 769 weighs more. The 769 slipped a bit in some places on Monday. Yesterday I did a few trips on various Pacer+15X combinations in similar weather without any slip at all. A 153+Pacer got through Caerphilly tunnel in 1:28. That's my fastest time with a 153 in the formation, the 142 must have been pushing hard! I'll try the 769 again on a dry day in the hope of better timings. I doubt they'll ever match a Pacer though, power to weight ratio for a 769 is 6.75 hp/ton compared with 9.2 hp/ton for a 143. The electric transmission ought to be more effecient so that will narrow the gap.

 

[sftfan1909]

Made another short journey today and sat in an engine coach. It was easily quieter than a 150 and the ride felt smoother too. I'm impressed so far

 

[507021]

I'm pleased to hear a 769 has finally entered revenue-earning traffic.

Hopefully Northern's follow soon, although I don't feel particularly optimistic at the moment.

 

[Jamesrob637]

I'm pleased to hear a 769 has finally entered revenue-earning traffic.

Hopefully Northern's follow soon, although I don't feel particularly optimistic at the moment.

769s would help for social distancing. Although they offer slightly less capacity than 150/156 combo, they're still marginally more capacious than 150x2. Plus they would allow all other services to be booked 4-car when the timetable is uplifted in a few weeks.

 

[507021]

769s would help for social distancing. Although they offer slightly less capacity than 150/156 combo, they're still marginally more capacious than 150x2. Plus they would allow all other services to be booked 4-car when the timetable is uplifted in a few weeks.

I absolutely agree, but as far as I know there's no signs of Northern's entering service yet.

 

[Ribbleman]

Sorry OT but I used to travel on these from central London south around the Catford loop (and back). They were never poor performers (lacked traction in the wet at times though!) so I never understood why they gained such a poor reputation with Northern? They’d leave a Sprinter standing, and go on to 100mph!

At least part of the reason why they don't find favour in some quarters at Northern is due to their inferior rate of acceleration compared to a 323.

 

[konstant]

I'm pleased to hear a 769 has finally entered revenue-earning traffic.

Hopefully Northern's follow soon, although I don't feel particularly optimistic at the moment.

Two have entered service, and this number will raise quite rapidly.

 

[AM9]

At least part of the reason why they don't find favour in some quarters at Northern is due to their inferior rate of acceleration compared to a 323.

But the class 769's role on Northern services isn't an alternative to the 323s.

 

[DustyBin]

But the class 769's role on Northern services isn't an alternative to the 323s.

Sorry I went slightly OT and mentioned 319's - that's what is being reffered to here!

 

[Greybeard33]

The 319s motors add up to 1324hp. The two engines on a 769 total 1046 hp and of course the 769 weighs more.

The 769's available traction motor power totals only 550kW (737 hp) on diesel, versus 990kW (1328hp) on OLE. Explanation from the Northern thread here:

You cannot equate the shaft power output of the diesel engines to the electrical power input to the traction motors. There are losses in the generators and traction controllers, plus some of the power is diverted to auxiliaries (heating, lighting, brake compressor etc.) Wabtec/Porterbrook have said that the available power on diesel is about 550kW, only 55% of that on AC or third rail.

See Post #2971.

 

[DorkingMain]

You are. Info says signalling problems

Rulebook says any signalling failure on a single line requires working by pilotman. Usually Network Rail MOMs are the most qualified available person to do this.

 

[Cardiff123]

769s would help for social distancing. Although they offer slightly less capacity than 150/156 combo, they're still marginally more capacious than 150x2. Plus they would allow all other services to be booked 4-car when the timetable is uplifted in a few weeks.

Whilst looking at capacity on it's own, you'd think the 769s will help with social distancing, the seating layout of cramped 3+2 facing seating will actually hinder social distancing. People can't sit facing & opposite each other for obvious reasons in a bay of 6, so you'll only get 2 people max in a bay of 6 and 1 person in a bay of 2+2 facing seats (if everyone is observing the rule of being 2 metres away from anyone else they don't live with).

High back airline seats in 2+2 configuration is much better for current circumstances. Hopefully by next summer social distancing won't be something we'll have to worry about though.

 

[Bikeman78]

The 769's available traction motor power totals only 550kW (737 hp) on diesel, versus 990kW (1328hp) on OLE. Explanation from the Northern thread here:

Thanks. That's 25% less than a 4VEP. They are going to struggle on Reading to Gatwick. The 166s used to out run the slam door units from Gatwick to Earlswood.

Mods please move to another thread of you wish.

 

[507021]

Two have entered service, and this number will raise quite rapidly.

Excellent news.

 

[Wyrleybart]

Two have entered service, and this number will raise quite rapidly.

002 and 003 in passenger service and 006 and 008 in mileage accumulation / training ?
Have any of the 769/4xx ventured out of Canton yet, and have they been vinyled please ?

 

[Caaardiff]

Looking at the original Franchise fleet plan for TfW, the 769s were due to arrive by the end of 2018, so now 2 years late and due to start being phased out in the first quarter of 2022, so if that plan remains then less than 2 years service from them.
The South Wales DMUs aren't due to start arriving until 2022 Q2. So with the 769s starting to be phased out in Q1 with them gone by the start of Q2, then it looks like the plan will be to displace 150s back to the Rhymney line when the CAF and metro vehicles start arriving in 2021 Q4 (supposedly)
The 175s are due to start to leave by 2021 Q4 and all be gone by Q2
The 158s are due to start to leave by 2022 Q2 and all be gone by then end of 2022
The 153s are due to start to leave by 2022 Q3 and be gone by the end of 2022
The 150s are due to start to slowly leave in 2022 Q3 then level off and more start to leave again in 2023 Q2 and be gone by the end of 2023.

The 170s, 230s and Mk1V will remain beyond 2025.

Obviously things may have changed since then and delays to the new fleet may mean further changes.

 

[craigybagel]

Looking at the original Franchise fleet plan for TfW, the 769s were due to arrive by the end of 2018, so now 2 years late and due to start being phased out in the first quarter of 2022, so if that plan remains then less than 2 years service from them.
The South Wales DMUs aren't due to start arriving until 2022 Q2. So with the 769s starting to be phased out in Q1 with them gone by the start of Q2, then it looks like the plan will be to displace 150s back to the Rhymney line when the CAF and metro vehicles start arriving in 2021 Q4 (supposedly)
The 175s are due to start to leave by 2021 Q4 and all be gone by Q2
The 158s are due to start to leave by 2022 Q2 and all be gone by then end of 2022
The 153s are due to start to leave by 2022 Q3 and be gone by the end of 2022
The 150s are due to start to slowly leave in 2022 Q3 then level off and more start to leave again in 2023 Q2 and be gone by the end of 2023.

The 170s, 230s and Mk1V will remain beyond 2025.

Obviously things may have changed since then and delays to the new fleet may mean further changes.

It's worth pointing out that no future destinations for the fleets leaving TfW have been confirmed yet, which does suggest there might be a bit of flexibility.

 

[konstant]

002 and 003 in passenger service and 006 and 008 in mileage accumulation / training ?
Have any of the 769/4xx ventured out of Canton yet, and have they been vinyled please ?

452 is wrapped and will be out soon. Low density interior with declassified 1st class - lovely unit.

 

[Cardiff123]

Looking at the original Franchise fleet plan for TfW.........

Obviously things may have changed since then and delays to the new fleet may mean further changes.

Sorry, I had to laugh at this point, which is an enormous, gigantic understatement. I mean not much has changed in the 2.5 - 3 years since that franchise plan was drawn up, including a devastating global pandemic causing a dramatic shift in travel patterns, and the original operator of the new franchise leaving next February.
I'm just an onlooker, but I'm pretty sure any rolling stock plans drawn up 3 years ago can now be taken with a pinch of salt. The introduction dates of the new Stadler vehicles for the Valleys come with massive caveats. It's already been announced that the infrastructure work on the Core Valleys is delayed by 6 months, with the Metro Vehicles not entering service until the end of 2022 and the Tri-modes for Rhymney through to the VoG coming into service end of 2023 at the earliest.

Don't forget it's not just the 769s that have been delayed, the 230s for North Wales and the Mk4 coaches are also very delayed in entering service.

452 is wrapped and will be out soon. Low density interior with declassified 1st class - lovely unit.

Low density - so not 3+2 facing seating?