Transport for Wales 769's

[Peter749]

The 769s are included in Modern Railways' monthly 'New Train TIN-watch'. The latest installment (September 2022 issue) provides the figures for 2022-23, period 3 (sorry, I'm not sure of the date range covered in each period). Here's an extract:

Fleet​	Fleet Size​	Unit Miles​	TINs​	MTIN​	MTIN MAA​
Northern class 769	8 units​	22,617​	6​	3,770​	1,123​
TfW class 769	9 units​	28,328​	13​	2,179​	1,587​

TIN = Technical Incident (train stopped for 3 minutes or more)
MTIN = Miles per TIN
MAA = Moving Annual Average

Northern Fleet had a problem with the VCB causing all the units to be run on Diesel so that might have affected the numbers and reliability
They seem to work ok on Electric but will do less on the south side from 11 Dec.

 

[Jacob Didcote]

Anyone know if the fueling and light maintenance of the 769s is going to remain at Rhymney after the December timetable change until they leave TFW please? I intend on returning for a trip after getting a fair few shots in May and August up there to take some pictures of the moves to and from the fuel road but don't want a wasted journey!
Many thanks

Best be quick then! Spoke to someone on the 231 test run the other day. Allowed me on board and had a look round. He informed me they will be in service between mid to late January at the latest on the Rhymney Valley. I will imagine the number of 769s on the Rhymney Valley will start to diminish once the 231s enter service.

 

[175001]

They won't be going south of Oxford Rd at all from next week

They seem to work ok on Electric but will do less on the south side from 11 Dec.

 

[Express380]

Best be quick then! Spoke to someone on the 231 test run the other day. Allowed me on board and had a look round. He informed me they will be in service between mid to late January at the latest on the Rhymney Valley. I will imagine the number of 769s on the Rhymney Valley will start to diminish once the 231s enter service.

I'm not desperate for them I have them all photographed and have been on them all I just wandered if they were hanging about for abit longer just for a few more photos I wont be up that way till April time so guess they'll be gone by then in that case thanks for that

 

[Buzz68]

769421 working it’s first services for several months and rumoured to be the first to be going off lease back to Porterbrook is seen on the 2P31 1013 Rhymney to Cardiff Central

 

[lumitumey12345]

Will TFW's 769s be heading for scrap once they are off lease?

 

[59CosG95]

Will TFW's 769s be heading for scrap once they are off lease?

I'd think so. The units have had a very long innings and are firmly on the right hand side of the "inverse bathtub curve of reliability".
As much as I love them, it's high time they went.

 

[anthony263]

769421 rumoured to be the first withdrawn

 

[Bob Price]

Any timescales we know of yet?

 

[317 forever]

This means they were refurbished for TfW but not used in service for all that long. Mind you, they have been used for longer than TfW class 230s or fellow 769s with GWR.

 

[PaulHarding150]

This means they were refurbished for TfW but not used in service for all that long. Mind you, they have been used for longer than TfW class 230s or fellow 769s with GWR.

And played an important role in providing capacity the the pacers went.

 

[Bob Price]

They were always meant to be a stop gap. ATW needed diesel trains while the 150's were having PRM mods and these were all that were available without an order for new stock, for which there was no cash. DfT said these or nothing.

 

[Razorblades]

DfT said these or nothing.

I'm probably mistaken, but I thought the devolved powers of the Welsh Assembly means they aren't accountable to DfT in the same way as the English franchises, as Drakeford & Co. define the franchise parameters?

 

[MattRat]

Will TFW's 769s be heading for scrap once they are off lease?

Either that or they'll be snapped up by Northern to get rid of some 150s. Unlikely, but you can never tell with Northern. They seem to take anything they can get.

 

[43096]

They were always meant to be a stop gap. ATW needed diesel trains while the 150's were having PRM mods and these were all that were available without an order for new stock, for which there was no cash. DfT said these or nothing.

Wasn't it more to do with getting rid of Pacers than anything else?

 

[SuperLuke2334]

I'm probably mistaken, but I thought the devolved powers of the Welsh Assembly means they aren't accountable to DfT in the same way as the English franchises, as Drakeford & Co. define the franchise parameters?

It was under KeolisAmey when the franchise started. Welsh government only took it over February 2021.

 

[Razorblades]

It was under KeolisAmey when the franchise started. Welsh government only took it over February 2021.

Yes, that much is clear (TfW stepping-in, post-Covid), but at the time the bids were being prepared in 2017 I thought the invitation to tender documents were drafted by TfW, who contracted-in certain advisory services from DfT, plus advice from Network Rail, but the core deliverables were theirs (Welsh Govt.).

 

[Bob Price]

Indeed ATW were a franchise from the DfT. They asked many times for more stock and were refused. Had Poterbrook got their act together we would have seen a 769 in ATW colours. Anyone got any Photoshop skills

 

[Rhydgaled]

Yes, that much is clear (TfW stepping-in, post-Covid), but at the time the bids were being prepared in 2017 I thought the invitation to tender documents were drafted by TfW, who contracted-in certain advisory services from DfT, plus advice from Network Rail, but the core deliverables were theirs (Welsh Govt.).

That is my understanding also: the 15 year ATW franchise (which ended in 2018) was let by the UK Government but for the new franchise (starting in October 2018 and won by KeolisAmey) I thought that the responsibility for letting the franchise had been devolved to the Welsh Government (hence why the operator of last resort when COVID happened was TfW and not whoever it is for the Westminister-managed franchises).

 

[tomuk]

That is my understanding also: the 15 year ATW franchise (which ended in 2018) was let by the UK Government but for the new franchise (starting in October 2018 and won by KeolisAmey) I thought that the responsibility for letting the franchise had been devolved to the Welsh Government (hence why the operator of last resort when COVID happened was TfW and not whoever it is for the Westminister-managed franchises).

This is quite correct apart from putting parameters around cross border and services in England by Westminster the Welsh Government were completely responsible for the letting of the new Keolis Amey franchise. The new franchise was bid differently as a competitive dialogue where only the outline requirements were specified upfront and it was the suppliers to come up with detailed solutions hence the odd mix of stock to squeeze the WGs champagne desires to the realistic budget.

Prior to the new franchise DfT had already handed over day to day responsibility to manage Arriva and the old franchise to the Welsh Government but still retained veto over any major changes unless paid for directly by the WG.


On the 769s they were all that was available there was no other diesel stock out there at the time. They were ordered jointly by ATW and WG as part of the wider DfT Flex programme with Northern and Porterbrook and later GWR

Class 319 Flex electro-diesel multiple-units for Wales​

Railway Gazette International 17 July 2017
The Welsh Government is to provide £1·9m and operator Arriva Trains Wales £1m to lease five Class 319 Flex electro-diesel multiple-units for use on the Wales & Borders franchise from 2018 until at least 2021.

 

[krus_aragon]

For the 769s, the key point is that they were initially procured before the Welsh government got their additional powers and responsibilities for the new franchise. The fact that they entered service under TfW rather than ATW is an indication of how late they were.

 

[AdamWW]

That is my understanding also: the 15 year ATW franchise (which ended in 2018) was let by the UK Government but for the new franchise (starting in October 2018 and won by KeolisAmey) I thought that the responsibility for letting the franchise had been devolved to the Welsh Government (hence why the operator of last resort when COVID happened was TfW and not whoever it is for the Westminister-managed franchises).

From memory, it was also done in a rather different (and much less prescriptive) way than the usual DfT franchise.

 

[Razorblades]

For the 769s, the key point is that they were initially procured before the Welsh government got their additional powers and responsibilities for the new franchise. The fact that they entered service under TfW rather than ATW is an indication of how late they were.

Keolis/Amey surely? I didn't think the 769s were ever coming in under Arriva, or were they? I thought 769s had to be in by the end of 2020 to eradicate the 142/ 143s, which was Keolis/Amey era.

7 December 2003 – 13 October 2018: Arriva Trains Wales (ATW)
14 October 2018 – 6 February 2021: KeolisAmey
7 February 2021 - present: Transport for Wales (TfW)
(source, my work notes from 2019, updated)

 

[Bob Price]

The original five were ATW to sub for the 150's that needed PPM. Kelios added four more to the order to help cover the Pacers along with the 170's.

 

[sefyllian]

Keolis/Amey surely? I didn't think the 769s were ever coming in under Arriva, or were they?

The initial 769s were ordered in July 2017, under Arriva.

27th July 2017
FIVE FOUR-CAR Class 319 Flex units, designated Class 769, will be introduced to the Wales and Borders franchise next year. The trains will be leased following an initial £1.9 million investment by the Welsh Government and £1 million from Arriva Trains Wales. The concept has been developed by Porterbrook, and involves fitting diesel engines to the dual-voltage EMUs to allow operation on non-electrified routes.
[…]
Modern Railways understands the trains are likely to commence operation in Wales next summer, giving ATW only a short period to use them before its franchise is due to end in October 2018.

 

[Rhydgaled]

On the 769s they were all that was available there was no other diesel stock out there at the time.

Class 230s might also have been available (and the first of Northern's class 195s might have been under construction), but new stock couldn't have been delivered in time to allow replacement of the ATW/TfW Pacers before the new Persons of Reduced Mobility requirements came into force (which if I recall correctly was 1st Jan 2020). So, it was really just a choice of 769s or 230s; and as we now know with the benefit of hindsight even those projects weren't able to deliver in time.

For the 769s, the key point is that they were initially procured before the Welsh government got their additional powers and responsibilities for the new franchise. The fact that they entered service under TfW rather than ATW is an indication of how late they were.

Keolis/Amey surely? I didn't think the 769s were ever coming in under Arriva, or were they? I thought 769s had to be in by the end of 2020 to eradicate the 142/ 143s, which was Keolis/Amey era.

If I recall correctly, due to the presure of the PRM deadline, the first order for class 769s for Wales was placed by ATW before the franchise had been awarded. I cannot remember whether they were actually schedued for delivery before the October 2018 handover, or whether ATW were just placing the order on behalf of whoever won the franchise, but I am almost certain I heard/read that ATW were involved somehow. I don't think it was the whole batch though - I have a feeling it was 5 units - and a further order for additional 769s was placed by KeolisAmey when they won the franchise, taking us to the current total.

 

[PaulHarding150]

As mentioned in post 2150 above, ATW contributed £1m and the Welsh Govt (WG) £1.9m to lease five units. The new franchise then leased another four.

ATW paid £1m and never got to put them into service (not a fact that any commuters will loose sleep over)

 

[56xx]

I've grown fond of travelling in these units over the last year or so.
I think they are full of character. Every carriage is different.
The driving end carriages with the diesel engines and former first class seats in the 769 4xx, the former pantograph carriages with the clunk on and off and whine of the traction motors and the other middle carriage almost silent except for the compressor cutting in to restore air pressure all combined with the beep - beep and ding - ding of the guard / driver signals which seem to occur randomly are to me, part of an enjoyable journey.
I will miss them for all their reliability problems (Which seem to have faded a bit).
I would love to think that at least one unit could find a home on heritage railway (Bluebell ?). Possibly 769 008 in view of its history in being the first train to carry passengers through the Channel Tunnel.

 

[Dai Corner]

I've grown fond of travelling in these units over the last year or so.
I think they are full of character. Every carriage is different.
The driving end carriages with the diesel engines and former first class seats in the 769 4xx, the former pantograph carriages with the clunk on and off and whine of the traction motors and the other middle carriage almost silent except for the compressor cutting in to restore air pressure all combined with the beep - beep and ding - ding of the guard / driver signals which seem to occur randomly are to me, part of an enjoyable journey.
I will miss them for all their reliability problems (Which seem to have faded a bit).
I would love to think that at least one unit could find a home on heritage railway (Bluebell ?). Possibly 769 008 in view of its history in being the first train to carry passengers through the Channel Tunnel.

I agree. They're second only to the loco-hauled trains in 'crank' terms in the Rhymney valley. I do appreciate that the normals and staff will disagree!

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I've grown fond of travelling in these units over the last year or so.
I think they are full of character. Every carriage is different.
The driving end carriages with the diesel engines and former first class seats in the 769 4xx, the former pantograph carriages with the clunk on and off and whine of the traction motors and the other middle carriage almost silent except for the compressor cutting in to restore air pressure all combined with the beep - beep and ding - ding of the guard / driver signals which seem to occur randomly are to me, part of an enjoyable journey.
I will miss them for all their reliability problems (Which seem to have faded a bit).
I would love to think that at least one unit could find a home on heritage railway (Bluebell ?). Possibly 769 008 in view of its history in being the first train to carry passengers through the Channel Tunnel.

I was thinking that only half an hour ago when travelling on one. Good riddance to the 150s, and I’m not a big fan of 319s or the Northern 769s, but I’ve grown to like the TfW 769s.