Transport for Wales Class 231 / 756 FLIRTs

[Jez]

I noticed it said 'Dim Ond i Penarth' which means 'To Penarth Only' whilst the English announcement says we will be travelling to Penarth (or words to that effect).

 

[AdamWW]

I noticed it said 'Dim Ond i Penarth' which means 'To Penarth Only' whilst the English announcement says we will be travelling to Penarth (or words to that effect).

Quite.

 

[Rhydgaled]

I'm sure it would be possible to do better with information systems if the will (and money) was there, and I do find it interesting that fitting such systems is now considered essential, but there appears to be little interest in ensuring that they actually work accurately (or at all).

Could be wrong but my understanding is that Passenger Information Systems are not just considered essential but are essential (unless you want to break the law) due to the introduction of stricter regulations regarding discrimination on grounds of disability. The fact said information systems are often not functioning correctly is therefore intriguing as you say.

Literally: "only to Penarth"
According to someone I know the same happens the other end - "dim ond i Rymni" (officially it should be "i Benarth" too). Yes it's wrong as this implies a non-stopping service.

I'm not a Welsh speaker but in English your translation "only to Penarth" sounds a little ambiguous to me - unlike "calling at Penarth only". "Only to Penarth" could perhaps be interpreted to mean "only as far as Penarth", which wouldn't give any information regarding intermediate stops. The latter interpretation would of course make more sense on a service to Bargoed since Bargoed (unlike Penarth and Rhymney) is not the end of the line.

 

[AdamWW]

I'm not a Welsh speaker but in English your translation "only to Penarth" sounds a little ambiguous to me - unlike "calling at Penarth only". "Only to Penarth" could perhaps be interpreted to mean "only as far as Penarth", which wouldn't give any information regarding intermediate stops. The latter interpretation would of course make more sense on a service to Bargoed since Bargoed (unlike Penarth and Rhymney) is not the end of the line.

I don't know about Welsh language announcements, but in the TfW English announcements the word "only" seems to be used exclusively for services that have no subsequent intermediate stops.

Now I think about it though, on screens I think I've seen "yn unig" rather than "dim ond" under such circumstances. And on trains up to now the passenger information hasn't been in Welsh (apart from the incessent Covid "travel safer advice" one used to have the pleasure of listening to after every stop).

 

[Jez]

Welsh can be quite complex and some words can have several meanings depending on the context they are used. For example the word 'ond' means 'but;. But 'dim ond' means 'only' so it does sound like they are saying 'only to Penarth' as in only calling at Penarth. Really they should say 'Byddwn ni'n teithio i Penarth' if they want the exact translation for 'we will be travelling to Penarth'

 

[StKeverne1497]

I don't know about Welsh language announcements, but in the TfW English announcements the word "only" seems to be used exclusively for services that have no subsequent intermediate stops.

Now I think about it though, on screens I think I've seen "yn unig" rather than "dim ond" under such circumstances. And on trains up to now the passenger information hasn't been in Welsh (apart from the incessent Covid "travel safer advice" one used to have the pleasure of listening to after every stop).

"yn unig" could be translated (in this context) as "solely"*, as in "this train is solely going to Penarth".

They have perfectly good existing translations which are used on the current trains and on the platforms so it's odd that they've chosen to start again for the new trains. It only needs the omission of "dim ond" or "yn unig" for the announcement to make sense; "y gwasanaeth i Benarth, yn galw at..." = "the service to Penarth, calling at..."

Why do these things have to be made so complicated? It's a solved problem. The usual excuse is that the people putting together the systems are not Welsh-speakers, but if they are provided with a script (they presumably are) and they use a Welsh-speaker to make the recordings (they must) then all they have to do is get the recordings played out in the correct order.

Possibly off topic, but I think this might be a variation on the "I'm not in the office, please send any translation" problem:

which does make you think that some people do it deliberately. Apart from the above well-known example, I've collected a few myself.


I think the first one is pretty self-explanatory and pretty much obviously someone mucking about. In the second one, the Welsh reads "ROAD SIGNS AHEAD".

Edited to say, in both the above examples there were several identical signs dotted around the place; these weren't one-offs.

*in another context it could mean "is lonely"!

 

[AdamWW]

"yn unig" could be translated (in this context) as "solely"*, as in "this train is solely going to Penarth".

They have perfectly good existing translations which are used on the current trains and on the platforms so it's odd that they've chosen to start again for the new trains. It only needs the omission of "dim ond" or "yn unig" for the announcement to make sense; "y gwasanaeth i Benarth, yn galw at..." = "the service to Penarth, calling at..."

I don't think I've come across Welsh announcements on TfW trains apart from pre-recorded standard ones. (I.e. not ones saying where the train is going or which station is next etc.).

I need to listen to see if the English annoucements say "only" when a FLIRT is approaching the last stop. I'm not sure they do, which perhaps makes it even odder that the recording includes "dim ond".

 

[Peter Sarf]

I got 231002 (my last 231) at Cardiff Central today. I would have missed it as it arrived on time but it was still there until very roughly 15:50 when it should have left at 15:32 on 2P67 for Penarth. It seems to have picked up its diagram later and RTT says part cancelled due to planning error. I assume unit fine but no driver passed on 231s ?.

 

[6Gtraincrew]

231008 is on diagram today. First day in passenger service

 

[Peter Sarf]

231008 is on diagram today. First day in passenger service

And impressed I was.

Myself and Granddaughter had a decent ride on 231008 Monday 20/02/2023.
12:46 Cardiff Central to Penarth,
13:03 Penarth to Rhymney,
14:24 Rhymney to Cardiff Central.
never late arriving afaikt but up to 2m early at destinations (probably recovery time).

Overall fairly pleasant.

Seats - unnoticeable.
A bit upright but got used to it. Nothing like the immorally nice seats in 175109 we tried later to Bridgend however - are the 175s really for the chop ?. I am 6ft 2" with long limbs. Caveat is we spent most of the time sat facing at table seats at coach ends so cannot comment on legroom. Grandaughter spotted and went straight for the raised areas at coach ends.

Noise - rather calm.
We sat for some time next to the engine unit/loco - noticeable engine noise but more of a low throbbing than the ear piercing scream/whine that fills the interior of a 150. Looking back I think the ambience of the coach is on the quiet side so engine can be more noticeable at times. Most noticeable was the engine noise for a short period just after becoming stationary at a station - probably a period of replenishing air/cooling. I would say that the lack of a continuous battering from the engine noise makes it more noticeable when it can be heard. Bit like being in the leading coach behind a diesel locomotive. Unlike an underfloor DMU the whole coach is not reverberating - due to the lack of an engine attached to it. I was waiting to sample the engine noise on the long uphill grinds up the Rhymney valley - not really noticeable, overlooked even though anticipated !.

Announcements - a few aberrations :-
1) Some of the screens could show both languages simultaneously so one is readable for longer BUT I would strongly suggest a slightly different background colour for each language. I have found it very hard to read bi-lingual road signs in Wales as you get stuck on the wrong language - shows how much we scan and guess words.
2) On arrival at stations the station was mentioned once then we only saw the doors which side arrows and reminders this was a TfW service. Trouble is if you miss the first station announcements prior to arrival then you will not get a further announcement saying where you are. I noticed that the station name-boards where very sparse.
3) On the way from Rhymney to Penarth the next station after Heath HL was announced as Cardiff Central so Cardiff Queeen Street was announced as Central !.

Overall a very nice train. Would have to be a good loco hauled intercity to get better, not claustrophobic like 220s, 221s or 390s.

 

[03_179]

And impressed I was.

Myself and Granddaughter had a decent ride on 231008 Monday 20/02/2023.
12:46 Cardiff Central to Penarth,
13:03 Penarth to Rhymney,
14:24 Rhymney to Cardiff Central.
never late arriving afaikt but up to 2m early at destinations (probably recovery time).

Overall fairly pleasant.

Seats - unnoticeable.
A bit upright but got used to it. Nothing like the immorally nice seats in 175109 we tried later to Bridgend however - are the 175s really for the chop ?. I am 6ft 2" with long limbs. Caveat is we spent most of the time sat facing at table seats at coach ends so cannot comment on legroom. Grandaughter spotted and went straight for the raised areas at coach ends.

Noise - rather calm.
We sat for some time next to the engine unit/loco - noticeable engine noise but more of a low throbbing than the ear piercing scream/whine that fills the interior of a 150. Looking back I think the ambience of the coach is on the quiet side so engine can be more noticeable at times. Most noticeable was the engine noise for a short period just after becoming stationary at a station - probably a period of replenishing air/cooling. I would say that the lack of a continuous battering from the engine noise makes it more noticeable when it can be heard. Bit like being in the leading coach behind a diesel locomotive. Unlike an underfloor DMU the whole coach is not reverberating - due to the lack of an engine attached to it. I was waiting to sample the engine noise on the long uphill grinds up the Rhymney valley - not really noticeable, overlooked even though anticipated !.

Announcements - a few aberrations :-
1) Some of the screens could show both languages simultaneously so one is readable for longer BUT I would strongly suggest a slightly different background colour for each language. I have found it very hard to read bi-lingual road signs in Wales as you get stuck on the wrong language - shows how much we scan and guess words.
2) On arrival at stations the station was mentioned once then we only saw the doors which side arrows and reminders this was a TfW service. Trouble is if you miss the first station announcements prior to arrival then you will not get a further announcement saying where you are. I noticed that the station name-boards where very sparse.
3) On the way from Rhymney to Penarth the next station after Heath HL was announced as Cardiff Central so Cardiff Queeen Street was announced as Central !.

Overall a very nice train. Would have to be a good loco hauled intercity to get better, not claustrophobic like 220s, 221s or 390s.

Pretty much sums up my trip on one on Monday.
I actually enjoyed it.
Then again I liked the 150s, 153 and the HSTs.
Not the 345s or 700s

Yes the 231s (and in that vein the 745/755) are good units.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Pretty much sums up my trip on one on Monday.
I actually enjoyed it.
Then again I liked the 150s, 153 and the HSTs.
Not the 345s or 700s

Yes the 231s (and in that vein the 745/755) are good units.

I agree, there are a number of modern EMUs that make up for lack of engine noise by having a brutal seating layout - 345s and 700s I am looking at you !. As for 390s claustrophobic with the continuous noise (edgy whine) from the AC - its why I go on a 350 and have to pay less !.

We fitted in a trip up to Merthyr Tydfil before and Maesteg after. Cardiff valleys day rover £13.50 btw.

Lastly it was easy to encounter the 231 as I saw you have its diagram on your ( @03_179 ) daily blog - http://partimespotter.wordpress.com/ ta very much.

 

[XAM2175]

We sat for some time next to the engine unit/loco ...

"Power pack" is the technical term

 

[Peter Sarf]

"Power pack" is the technical term

Yeah, thanks, I keep forgetting that. I suppose that conjours up the idea of a removable battery on a drill etc. But then these are cordless trains.

 

[AlexNL]

"Power pack" is the technical term

And "Thrash pod" is the enthusiasts term

 

[Bletchleyite]

And "Thrash pod" is the enthusiasts term

"Thrash cupboard"

 

[krus_aragon]

Also I'd be interested if there are any Welsh speakers on here who have used the trains. It sounds to me as if the PIS describes services throughout the route as e.g, "dim ond i Penarth" which I thought meant "Penarth only". But maybe I'm mishearing or that's not what it means. It's not what appears on the screens but the screens and announcements don't seem to be particularly related

I've not been down south to hear the 231s in person, but phrasing it that way would be a change in style: the bilingual announcements at stations have long used " yn galw yn X yn unig" for "calling at X only".

Could it perhaps be that they're saying "(yn) mynd i Benarth", for "going to Penarth"?

 

[Techniquest]

And "Thrash pod" is the enthusiasts term

I vary between that and power pod, depends on the mood.

There exists a possibility of my arrival in Cardiff tomorrow, expect a trip report if it happens!

 

[AdamWW]

I've not been down south to hear the 231s in person, but phrasing it that way would be a change in style: the bilingual announcements at stations have long used " yn galw yn X yn unig" for "calling at X only".

Could it perhaps be that they're saying "(yn) mynd i Benarth", for "going to Penarth"?

Perhaps. My Welsh is extremely limited. That's why I asked if any Welsh speakers could offer an opinion.

 

[43096]

I vary between that and power pod, depends on the mood.

Or power car...

 

[StKeverne1497]

Perhaps. My Welsh is extremely limited. That's why I asked if any Welsh speakers could offer an opinion.

Having travelled on one for the first time today (Queen Street to Caerphilly), noticeable that the "dim ond i Rhymni" thing does grate a bit as does the apparently modern usage of not mutating placenames. On the screens someone had forgotten to add a space after the "i" so the boards actually said "iRhymni", and most amusingly of all, leaving Lisvane & Thornhill, the announcement correctly said (both languages) that Caerphilly was the next stop, then somewhere underground it got confused and upon exiting Caerphilly tunnel, suddenly the next stop was Aber, with Caerphilly shown on the screens with a black dot as if we had already passed it.

The conductor made a correction announcement - though his "bing bongs" are more of a fancy chiming clock! Again, much to the amusement of my travelling companions.

 

[Techniquest]

Or power car...

That would do nicely too

 

[Rhydgaled]

A bit upright but got used to it. Nothing like the immorally nice seats in 175109 we tried later to Bridgend however - are the 175s really for the chop ?. I am 6ft 2" with long limbs. Caveat is we spent most of the time sat facing at table seats at coach ends so cannot comment on legroom. Grandaughter spotted and went straight for the raised areas at coach ends.

I'm somewhere between 6ft 1in and 6ft 4in and, since you mention a class 175, I can confirm the legroom in those is really good (probably the best, at least in standard class, in national rail service in Great Britain). Don't know about the 231s though, I haven't been on one yet - I tried to get an overnight booking in a Premier Inn in Barry a while back extended to two nights to give an opportunity to sample both the 769s and 231s but no joy.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Welsh can be quite complex and some words can have several meanings depending on the context they are used. For example the word 'ond' means 'but;. But 'dim ond' means 'only' so it does sound like they are saying 'only to Penarth' as in only calling at Penarth. Really they should say 'Byddwn ni'n teithio i Penarth' if they want the exact translation for 'we will be travelling to Penarth'

I have noticed MK4s say “Byddwn ni'n teithio i” (and it sounds so ridiculous when rhymning with Holyhead, like a nursery rhyme) but both 197s and 231s say “Dim ond y,” which would probably sound even more ridiculous as two sets of three syllables ending in the same eee sound.

Would be like getting on a 450 that said, “Welcome to SWR. Going to. Waterloo.”

 

[norbitonflyer]

Yeah, thanks, I keep forgetting that. I suppose that conjours up the idea of a removable battery on a drill etc. But then these are cordless trains.

They are, in theory, removable, at least on their 755 cousins, to be converted to straight electrics. Or to be replaced by some other independent power source such as hydrogen, batteries, or bionic duckweed.

(future proofing rolling stock rarely pays off - mark 4 stock never had tilt installed, but ECML passxengers had to put up with the narrower body profile that would have allowed it for 30 years)

 

[StripeyNick]

"Thrash cupboard"

I call it the thrash wagon

 

[Peter Sarf]

I'm somewhere between 6ft 1in and 6ft 4in and, since you mention a class 175, I can confirm the legroom in those is really good (probably the best, at least in standard class, in national rail service in Great Britain). Don't know about the 231s though, I haven't been on one yet - I tried to get an overnight booking in a Premier Inn in Barry a while back extended to two nights to give an opportunity to sample both the 769s and 231s but no joy.

As a matter of fact the 175 standard class seats could be better than all the first class I can think of. I did have to check. Amazing how wide they were as well for 2+2 and obvious amounts of legroom.

But the 231s seats are more basic but still about right for the job, certainly nothing wrong with them. The coach ambience is open and airy.

 

[XAM2175]

(future proofing rolling stock rarely pays off - mark 4 stock never had tilt installed, but ECML passxengers had to put up with the narrower body profile that would have allowed it for 30 years)

In fairness on this particular point, and with apologies for the brief diversion, that decision dates to around 1985 when it was expected that the Mk 4 coach would be the standard design not just for the ECML order but also the WCML, filling the role originally intended for the APT-S order. Even at that point BR had assessed the value of tilt to be negligible on the ECML south of Newcastle, so the primary rationale was one of economy of scale across a much larger order.

I view that as being rather different to the FLIRTs simply having a modular configuration.

 

[Trainbike46]

They are, in theory, removable, at least on their 755 cousins, to be converted to straight electrics. Or to be replaced by some other independent power source such as hydrogen, batteries, or bionic duckweed.

(future proofing rolling stock rarely pays off - mark 4 stock never had tilt installed, but ECML passxengers had to put up with the narrower body profile that would have allowed it for 30 years)

The situation of the FLIRT is rather different though; it is about having the option to remove a part (the thrash cupboard) that is currently needed, but may not be needed in the future (if electrification happens)

One of the reasons for early retirements has been that some units were not able to be modified to an alternative use in an economic manner. having basic features, such as pantograph wells on 3rd rail stock, that make this easier reduce the risk of that happening.
If emissions targets are to be met, all diesel trains will have to go by 2050 at the very latest, and probably earlier. This means that every new diesel train introduced since 2010 should either be able to be modified to no longer require diesel, or be retired early.

The 755s are prepared for being modified, while the 195s seem to have gone with the "retire early" strategy

 

[NewClee153]

These FLIRTs are by far the best modern stock I’ve ridden

The noise level and lighting is perfect, the level boarding is such as good feature, the interior is extremely smart, the seating is amongst some of the comfiest I’ve come across

10/10 for me. Perfect replacements for the current mix of 150s, 153s and 769s ghost currently inhabit the line. CAF take note