Transport for Wales Class 231 / 756 FLIRTs

[Nick Ashwell]

Is Cardiff to Severn Tunnel Junction a significant enough distance to make Bi-Mode to Cheltenham worth it ?. And there is also the possibility that the 231s might get moved onto routes with less electrification anyway.

What routes? Everywhere other than the HoW is heating brand new trains and the trains are owned by a Welsh government Ltd IIRC so the chance of cascade is almost not existent. There's a higher chance of electrification to Gloucester as part of the Severn Tunnel diversion route IMHO than cascading these trains.

All decarbonisation is worth is it, although granted maybe other instances would be more efficient. If it was only Newport to Cardiff it would be worth it if the fuel saved makes up for the weight.

Personally, they should have built with pantos and another power pack for batteries.

 

[Trainbike46]

Is Cardiff to Severn Tunnel Junction a significant enough distance to make Bi-Mode to Cheltenham worth it ?. And there is also the possibility that the 231s might get moved onto routes with less electrification anyway.

That is 21 miles, so it would be useful. Trains for routes with much less wires have been ordered as bimodes, and the amount of extra equipment needed to make a 231 bimode is rather limited

 

[AdamWW]

Is Cardiff to Severn Tunnel Junction a significant enough distance to make Bi-Mode to Cheltenham worth it ?. And there is also the possibility that the 231s might get moved onto routes with less electrification anyway.

There will be a trade-off between the efficiency of electric traction over a short part of the route and the impact of lugging around a transformer etc. when on diesel.

 

[craigybagel]

That is 21 miles, so it would be useful. Trains for routes with much less wires have been ordered as bimodes, and the amount of extra equipment needed to make a 231 bimode is rather limited

There will be a trade-off between the efficiency of electric traction over a short part of the route and the impact of lugging around a transformer etc. when on diesel.

Indeed - and the sums become even worse when you look at the other routes the 231s will work - Ebbw Vale (only wired to Ebbw Junction) and Maesteg (not wired at all).

 

[Nick Ashwell]

Indeed - and the sums become even worse when you look at the other routes the 231s will work - Ebbw Vale (only wired to Ebbw Junction) and Maesteg (not wired at all).

Maesteg is the Cheltenham route though for the majority of trains so treating it separately for a tiny number of trains a day is pointless, although Ebbw Vale does stand as some of the Maestegs work that way

 

[Jez]

Maesteg is the Cheltenham route though for the majority of trains so treating it separately for a tiny number of trains a day is pointless, although Ebbw Vale does stand as some of the Maestegs work that way

Maesteg services will be working through to Ebbw Vale from December instead of Cheltenham Spa. So even less will be electrified of that route just between Cardiff and Ebbw Junction.

 

[Nick Ashwell]

Maesteg services will be working through to Ebbw Vale from December instead of Cheltenham Spa. So even less will be electrified of that route just between Cardiff and Ebbw Junction.

Damn I didn't know about that. Good riddance my boss is closing our Bridgend site in that case

 

[Anonymous10]

What routes? Everywhere other than the HoW is heating brand new trains and the trains are owned by a Welsh government Ltd IIRC so the chance of cascade is almost not existent. There's a higher chance of electrification to Gloucester as part of the Severn Tunnel diversion route IMHO than cascading these trains.

All decarbonisation is worth is it, although granted maybe other instances would be more efficient. If it was only Newport to Cardiff it would be worth it if the fuel saved makes up for the weight.

Personally, they should have built with pantos and another power pack for batteries.

Nothing to say the 231s can't find a home displacing 197s to work howl trains amongst other options.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Nothing to say the 231s can't find a home displacing 197s to work howl trains amongst other options.

That sort of thing is what I was wondering.

Maesteg services will be working through to Ebbw Vale from December instead of Cheltenham Spa. So even less will be electrified of that route just between Cardiff and Ebbw Junction.

So the 231s duties, once they move off the routes 756s take over, will still be very much grinding their way up valleys that are not electrified.

 

[Nick Ashwell]

Nothing to say the 231s can't find a home displacing 197s to work howl trains amongst other options.

I thought 153s were due for the HOWL rather than 197s?

 

[pokemonsuper9]

I thought 153s were due for the HOWL rather than 197s?

The 153s are going to run the HOWL, however 197s theoretically could.

 

[craigybagel]

Maesteg is the Cheltenham route though for the majority of trains so treating it separately for a tiny number of trains a day is pointless, although Ebbw Vale does stand as some of the Maestegs work that way

True - but it still means that less of the units time will be spent running under the wires.

I thought 153s were due for the HOWL rather than 197s?

The 153s are going to run the HOWL, however 197s theoretically could.

There are no published plans in place yet for replacing the 153s - but it will need doing sooner or later. They haven't got that many years left in them.

 

[MikePJ]

Maesteg services will be working through to Ebbw Vale from December instead of Cheltenham Spa. So even less will be electrified of that route just between Cardiff and Ebbw Junction.

What will happen to the Cheltenham route then? Will it be withdrawn, or given a new terminus?

 

[popeter45]

What will happen to the Cheltenham route then? Will it be withdrawn, or given a new terminus?

cut short to Cardiff for now but i think somebody said it would be extended to Swansea at some point

 

[Jez]

What will happen to the Cheltenham route then? Will it be withdrawn, or given a new terminus?

It will terminate in Cardiff rather than Maesteg.

 

[Nick Ashwell]

Gotta love the removal of services for those of us in Monmouthshire, I want our independence back tbh

 

[MikePJ]

It will terminate in Cardiff rather than Maesteg.

Thanks!

 

[Anonymous10]

Gotta love the removal of services for those of us in Monmouthshire, I want our independence back tbh

Please explain what this comment is in relation to line closures are for maintenance with otherwise a alterations. To timetables pretty standard

 

[Rhydgaled]

What routes? Everywhere other than the HoW is heating brand new trains and the trains are owned by a Welsh government Ltd IIRC so the chance of cascade is almost not existent. There's a higher chance of electrification to Gloucester as part of the Severn Tunnel diversion route IMHO than cascading these trains.

Information about who actually owns the new TfW fleets seems to have been very thin on the ground. I too think I read something about the Welsh Government buying stock outright, however I also think I read something about them eventually deciding not to do so (at least for the brand new fleets - not so sure about the 230s and cascaded fleets). Specifically, I think I read that special purpose ventures called something like Cambrian Rail Leasing had been set up by one of the ROSCOs to own each of the new fleets. The Companies House information online seems to support that theory with at least two firms listed:

• CAMBRIAN RAIL LEASING NO. 1 LIMITED
• CAMBRIAN RAIL LEASING NO. 2 LIMITED

Both listed as being significantly controlled by Smbc Leasing (Uk) Limited.

That is 21 miles, so it would be useful. Trains for routes with much less wires have been ordered as bimodes, and the amount of extra equipment needed to make a 231 bimode is rather limited

Indeed - and the sums become even worse when you look at the other routes the 231s will work - Ebbw Vale (only wired to Ebbw Junction) and Maesteg (not wired at all).

Isn't Stansted-Ely the only bit substantially longer than 21 miles that the GA class 755s have wires for?

I guess if maintaining a pantograph etc. doesn't stack up for TfW at the moment it doesn't stack up and the important thing is that the 231s are easily convertable to bi-mode/tri-mode if/when TfW/Welsh-Government get their way regarding wires to Swansea and/or enough on-street sections are created for the 398s to cascade FLIRTs onto the Treherbert/Aberdare/Merthyr routes. I really hope they are easy to convert.

 

[craigybagel]

Isn't Stansted-Ely the only bit substantially longer than 21 miles that the GA class 755s have wires for?

True. I wish we had GA's budget for an entire fleet renewal with Stadlers but we are where we are....

If/when on-street sections are created for the 398s to cascade FLIRTs onto the Treherbert/Aberdare/Merthyr routes.

If that happens TfW will just order more 398s.

 

[tomuk]

Information about who actually owns the new TfW fleets seems to have been very thin on the ground. I too think I read something about the Welsh Government buying stock outright, however I also think I read something about them eventually deciding not to do so (at least for the brand new fleets - not so sure about the 230s and cascaded fleets). Specifically, I think I read that special purpose ventures called something like Cambrian Rail Leasing had been set up by one of the ROSCOs to own each of the new fleets. The Companies House information online seems to support that theory with at least two firms listed:

• CAMBRIAN RAIL LEASING NO. 1 LIMITED
• CAMBRIAN RAIL LEASING NO. 2 LIMITED

Both listed as being significantly controlled by Smbc Leasing (Uk) Limited.



Isn't Stansted-Ely the only bit substantially longer than 21 miles that the GA class 755s have wires for?

I guess if maintaining a pantograph etc. doesn't stack up for TfW at the moment it doesn't stack up and the important thing is that the 231s are easily convertable to bi-mode/tri-mode if/when TfW/Welsh-Government get their way regarding wires to Swansea and/or enough on-street sections are created for the 398s to cascade FLIRTs onto the Treherbert/Aberdare/Merthyr routes. I really hope they are easy to convert.

The Welsh government have bought the Mk4s and nearly a dozen 153s for 'scrap prices' as if they hadn't bought them they would have gone in the shredder at Newport. They also bought the 230s outright from Vivarail. All the other stock is leased from a number of SPVs set up by Equitix (an investment manager for various UK pension funds in infrstructure) and SMBC (Sumitomo Mitsui Banking Corporation).

 

[Rhydgaled]

True. I wish we had GA's budget for an entire fleet renewal with Stadlers but we are where we are....

I wasn't suggesting an entire fleet renewal with Stadlers; just pointing out that GA only have one route for their FLIRTs that has signficantly more wiring than the planned class 231 deployments (and plenty which I doubt use wires at all, given how little of the route is wired) and yet they decided it was worth going with bi-mode FLIRTs whereas TfW chose the DEMU class 231s.

 

[craigybagel]

I wasn't suggesting an entire fleet renewal with Stadlers; just pointing out that GA only have one route for their FLIRTs that has signficantly more wiring than the planned class 231 deployments (and plenty which I doubt use wires at all, given how little of the route is wired) and yet they decided it was worth going with bi-mode FLIRTs whereas TfW chose the DEMU class 231s.

I know - my point was that the economics of GA swing in favour of an all Bi-mode fleet. The economics at TfW are different, hence the sums pointing towards pure DMUs rather than bi-modes with very little use.

 

[RailWonderer]

True - but it still means that less of the units time will be spent running under the wires.



There are no published plans in place yet for replacing the 153s - but it will need doing sooner or later. They haven't got that many years left in them.

The more I learn about the TfW franchise the less I understand. Why replace later 158s, 170s and 175s but not older 153s - what were they thinking?

I wasn't suggesting an entire fleet renewal with Stadlers; just pointing out that GA only have one route for their FLIRTs that has signficantly more wiring than the planned class 231 deployments (and plenty which I doubt use wires at all, given how little of the route is wired) and yet they decided it was worth going with bi-mode FLIRTs whereas TfW chose the DEMU class 231s.

GA also were promising a Lowestoft - London Liverpool St through service which would have use the wires and this franchise commitment (now axed) would have influenced the bi-mode decision. They also stand in on some Norwich IC diagrams some days so plenty of use to have them as bi-modes.

 

[Dai Corner]

The more I learn about the TfW franchise the less I understand. Why replace later 158s, 170s and 175s but not older 153s - what were they thinking?

They were thinking of keeping Cl 170 DMUs for the services the 153s will be working but changed their minds.

 

[craigybagel]

The newer DMUs probably have a future use somewhere else, whilst the 153s would almost certainly be destined for the scrapyard if they were replaced today. In fact, that's part of the reason for the change of plans - originally 170s were going to replace the 153s, but EMR are desperate for them, and with the extra MKIVs coming in TfW have enough 197s free for every route planned for 170s except for the HOWL.

Given the economics of that line, getting it cleared and getting the crews trained for a microfleet of 170s was not likely to be a viable proposition - hence keeping a handful of 153s instead.

 

[MikePJ]

Information about who actually owns the new TfW fleets seems to have been very thin on the ground. I too think I read something about the Welsh Government buying stock outright, however I also think I read something about them eventually deciding not to do so (at least for the brand new fleets - not so sure about the 230s and cascaded fleets). Specifically, I think I read that special purpose ventures called something like Cambrian Rail Leasing had been set up by one of the ROSCOs to own each of the new fleets. The Companies House information online seems to support that theory with at least two firms listed:

• CAMBRIAN RAIL LEASING NO. 1 LIMITED
• CAMBRIAN RAIL LEASING NO. 2 LIMITED

Both listed as being significantly controlled by Smbc Leasing (Uk) Limited.



Isn't Stansted-Ely the only bit substantially longer than 21 miles that the GA class 755s have wires for?

I guess if maintaining a pantograph etc. doesn't stack up for TfW at the moment it doesn't stack up and the important thing is that the 231s are easily convertable to bi-mode/tri-mode if/when TfW/Welsh-Government get their way regarding wires to Swansea and/or enough on-street sections are created for the 398s to cascade FLIRTs onto the Treherbert/Aberdare/Merthyr routes. I really hope they are easy to convert.

I suspect that the conversion of the 231s to electric or bimode is relatively straightforward. However, were to be a widespread expansion of electrification in South Wales, it may be that it proves operationally more convenient to procure some more electric or bi-mode trains and then sell, lease or reallocate the 231s. The design of the 231s, with only passive provision for a conversion to 25kV power, is just fine - it avoids the need to spend more money now on something that might not be needed later.

 

[Topological]

They were thinking of keeping Cl 170 DMUs for the services the 153s will be working but changed their minds.

This actually turned out to be a good decision given that the 153s have needed to go to Manchester of late. The 153 also has more seats (I did not count, but it always feels like it) and handles luggage better than a 150. 170s would not have been cleared. I guess things like this did factor into the decision making process.

Of all the decisions made by TfW of late, the decision to refurbish 153s is probably one of the better ones.

 

[ancientsolar]

Surely the logical thing to do is extend electrification to Bridgend , then the 231s if ever need a conversion to bi mode or tri-mode could operate much of the journey without using diesel.
and the 800s would have a fairly highspeed route to Bridgend.

 

[yorkie]

This thread is to discuss updates relating to Transport for Wales Class 231 / 756 FLIRTs

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