Transport for Wales Class 231 / 756 FLIRTs

[Richard Scott]

I think cost was the biggest issue. Stadler units do not come cheap. But if you need bi-mode multiple units that fit UK gauge there isn't much choice out there.

The other issue is people moan about loss of manufacturing in UK and blame government but then support buying from foreign factories!

 

[Western 52]

Whilst Stadler units may be more expensive to buy, you need to consider the total cost of ownership over their intended lifetime. If they are more reliable and cause fewer delays, they may be more economic than less reliable units.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Whilst Stadler units may be more expensive to buy, you need to consider the total cost of ownership over their intended lifetime. If they are more reliable and cause fewer delays, they may be more economic than less reliable units.

This is my view. But it seems hard to put a value on reliability and many just get blinded by the up front costs not the long-term/overall costs.

If the Stadler 231 & 756 continue to be reliable then that will be the persuading factor. Certainly where Bi-modes (or even Tri-modes) in the UK are required.

 

[craigybagel]

Whilst Stadler units may be more expensive to buy, you need to consider the total cost of ownership over their intended lifetime. If they are more reliable and cause fewer delays, they may be more economic than less reliable units.

This is my view. But it seems hard to put a value on reliability and many just get blinded by the up front costs not the long-term/overall costs.

If the Stadler 231 & 756 continue to be reliable then that will be the persuading factor. Certainly where Bi-modes (or even Tri-modes) in the UK are required.

It's pretty hard to put a cost on reliability when you're making predictions about stock that doesn't actually exist at the time of order.

 

[AlexNL]

In an ideal world with unlimited budgets, an all-Stadler fleet would've been a game-changer for the entirety of Wales as much as it has been in Anglia.

Unfortunately that's not the world we live in, there is a limit to how much money is available. This applies to costs upfront (capital expense, CapEx) as well as ongoing (operational expense, OpEx).

If an all-Stadler fleet was prioritised over anything else, there probably would not have been sufficient budget to make it possible to replace the entire fleet.

 

[Dai Corner]

In an ideal world with unlimited budgets, an all-Stadler fleet would've been a game-changer for the entirety of Wales as much as it has been in Anglia.

Unfortunately that's not the world we live in, there is a limit to how much money is available. This applies to costs upfront (capital expense, CapEx) as well as ongoing (operational expense, OpEx).

If an all-Stadler fleet was prioritised over anything else, there probably would not have been sufficient budget to make it possible to replace the entire fleet.

Was there any CapEx? I thought the only stock TfW purchased was the 230s, Mk4s and some of the 153s? A more expensive train would attract higher lease payments of course.

 

[AlexNL]

Was there any CapEx?

In the end, no. The new fleets (197, 231, 398, 756) are all owned by SMBC Leasing and Equitix. From a bookkeeping perspective this was more interesting than TfW/WG acquiring the units by themselves.

A more expensive train would attract higher lease payments of course.

Absolutely! The money has to come from somewhere.

Another complicating factor is the operational requirements of TfW: portion working is important in some parts of the network, making the use of gangways a necessity. CAF already had a design for this (the 196) whereas Stadler probably do not - and it's unknown whether Stadler would even be willing to make one.

 

[craigybagel]

Another complicating factor is the operational requirements of TfW: portion working is important in some parts of the network, making the use of gangways a necessity. CAF already had a design for this (the 196) whereas Stadler probably do not - and it's unknown whether Stadler would even be willing to make one.

More so than pretty much any other manufacturer, Stadler have proved themselves to be quite happy to take on small bespoke orders with unique requirements. I'm fairly sure they'd be happy to design a unit with gangways - but it won't help with the already premium price you'd be expected to pay.

 

[Trainbike46]

Quite a few people have said tfw should have gone for a full stadler fleet.

Problem was CAF had a factory in wales so that probably focused Welsh politicians minds sadly

Didn't CAF open a factory in Wales as part of this train procurement?

 

[Dai Corner]

Didn't CAF open a factory in Wales as part of this train procurement?

I think the Welsh Government provided the building at Llanwern, Newport and CAF the plant and machinery. I don't know whether CAF have any obligation to stay there once all the 197s have been delivered.

 

[Bob Price]

Think they are planning to build the LNER units there and hope they get some more orders.

 

[H&I]

Does anyone know when the Class 756s might enter service? I have 12 January pencilled into my diary based on post #1566 in this thread, but there have been very few posts since then.

 

[anthony263]

Does anyone know when the Class 756s might enter service? I have 12 January pencilled into my diary based on post #1566 in this thread, but there have been very few posts since then.

May 2024

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

May 2024

Do you have a source for that?

 

[SuperLuke2334]

Do you have a source for that?

TfW released a short video recently about the reopening of the Treherbert line. In it, they said they would introduce FLIRTs in Summer 2024 until the 398s would start in the winter and early 2025.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

TfW released a short video recently about the reopening of the Treherbert line. In it, they said they would introduce FLIRTs in Summer 2024 until the 398s would start in the winter and early 2025.

Yes, I know - Summer is a very broad timeframe, and that could mean anything up to the end of August. I'm asking @anthony263 to source his assertion that introduction will be May.

 

[anthony263]

Yes, I know - Summer is a very broad timeframe, and that could mean anything up to the end of August. I'm asking @anthony263 to source his assertion that introduction will be May.

Summer 2024 I've seen thrown around . I did see something saying summer 2024 timetable change which is why I said May

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Summer 2024 I've seen thrown around . I did see something saying summer 2024 timetable change which is why I said May

I see, simply stating "May 2024" seemed a pretty confident response considering that's going off something you've "seen thrown around"

Honestly, the sooner they come into use the better I'm sure we can all agree on. The 150s are becoming unbearable.

 

[H&I]

May 2024

Thank you! I will continue to watch this thread. Ideally, there wouldn’t be a stealth launch only announced at the last minute, but that seems to be the norm. A walk-up London to Cardiff return ticket isn’t cheap!

 

[craigybagel]

Summer 2024 I've seen thrown around . I did see something saying summer 2024 timetable change which is why I said May

Summer timetable change is in June this year.

 

[anthony263]

Thank you! I will continue to watch this thread. Ideally, there wouldn’t be a stealth launch only announced at the last minute, but that seems to be the norm. A walk-up London to Cardiff return ticket isn’t cheap!

As others have said summer timetable change is in June this year so wait till then. Caught me out as I'm so used to the summer timetable changes happening in May

 

[Wyrleybart]

As this thread is about class 231 and 756 I imagine there is technically more scope to use a 756 on the Liverpool - Chester service, by using the 25kV between Runcorn and LimeSt, and Lime St and Runcorn to charge the batteries. I am presuming TfW never intended the 756s to work in North Wales, so I get why they would never appear in Liverpool, but isn't it intriguing ? Assume the 756 wouldeasily make the round trip ?

 

[MCR247]

As this thread is about class 231 and 756 I imagine there is technically more scope to use a 756 on the Liverpool - Chester service, by using the 25kV between Runcorn and LimeSt, and Lime St and Runcorn to charge the batteries. I am presuming TfW never intended the 756s to work in North Wales, so I get why they would never appear in Liverpool, but isn't it intriguing ? Assume the 756 wouldeasily make the round trip ?

With them being based in South Wales the drivers for the Liverpool - Chester won’t be trained on the 756s. I imagine it will be similar for drivers on the Newport - Chester section

 

[Envoy]

As this thread is about class 231 and 756 I imagine there is technically more scope to use a 756 on the Liverpool - Chester service, by using the 25kV between Runcorn and LimeSt, and Lime St and Runcorn to charge the batteries. I am presuming TfW never intended the 756s to work in North Wales, so I get why they would never appear in Liverpool, but isn't it intriguing ? Assume the 756 wouldeasily make the round trip ?

The Liverpool > Runcorn > Chester service will be extended to Llandudno and Cardiff.

 

[Bob Price]

They were procured for the South Wales Metro, they have never been thought of as a general purpose train for use anywhere on the Network. The plan was 231/756/398 for the Metro, 170's for West Wales and Heart of Wales line and 197's for everything else. That has changed to 197's West Wales, some Mk4's for the Marches and 153's for the HoW.

As much as they may fit there is zero probability of seeing anything but 197's in the Liverpool services.

 

[Jamesrob637]

So the 12th came and went, with no 756 in passenger service. 231s are though.

 

[anthony263]

So the 12th came and went, with no 756 in passenger service. 231s are though.

No 756s into service until june

 

[MikePJ]

So the 12th came and went, with no 756 in passenger service. 231s are though.

The 12th was the closing date for the consultation on allowing them to operate. At some point soon, someone at TfW Rail will get a letter from Amey Infrastructure Wales saying that the units are authorised to operate on the Treherbert, Aberdare and Merthyr lines, and only then will trials and driver training begin [EDIT - this was issued yesterday, on the 24th Jan ]. Passenger service is still quite a way off!

 

[Rhydgaled]

someone at TfW Rail will get a letter from Amey Infrastructure Wales saying that the units are authorised to operate on the Treherbert, Aberdare and Merthyr lines, and only then will trials and driver training begin

I was a little surprised to read this, given that the class 756s have been out on the GWML I assumed TfW would have been able to start driver (and guard) training on the 756s on the GWML between Newport. Having just gone looking for the relevant pinned threads however I see that this route is only signed by Cardiff Mainline (I had assumed Cardiff (Valleys) crews would do at least some of the Maesteg and Ebbw Vale services) so nobody who will work these units signs the route they've been tested on up to now.

Therefore, what has been acheived through running ECS along the GWML? Have all the units done the required fault-free mileage and been accepted by TfW?

 

[penguin8967]

Therefore, what has been acheived through running ECS along the GWML? Have all the units done the required fault-free mileage and been accepted by TfW?

I believe they are for mileage accumulation on the units, saw one at Swindon a few days ago and looked to be GBRf crew on it