TRIVIA/DISCUSSION - Bus Stations: to have and to have not

[Russel]

One thing I've always found strange is how many bus stations seem to have been built a fair distance away from the rail station with no real effort to connect the two.

 

[JKP]

One thing I've always found strange is how many bus stations seem to have been built a fair distance away from the rail station with no real effort to connect the two.

Perhaps that is because the vast majority of passengers have no desire to have to make their way between the shopping centre and station. I recall a survey carried out before deregulation on one route where buses were advertised to connect into and out of trains which showed only around 1 in 10 passengers travelled to/from the station.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Perhaps that is because the vast majority of passengers have no desire to have to make their way between the shopping centre and station. I recall a survey carried out before deregulation on one route where buses were advertised to connect into and out of trains which showed only around 1 in 10 passengers travelled to/from the station.

It's also because a lot of stations were built a fair distance from the city centre (e.g. Oxford), or the main station has been relocated there because of closures (e.g. Hemel Hempstead).

 

[TAS]

Following my recent travels, I would nominate Colchester as a candidate for a bus station. Terrible place to catch a bus.

Technically the stops on Osborne and Stanwell Streets are classed as the bus station, but I agree they are completely insufficient (and the waiting room opening hours are ridiculous).

There used to be a sizable bus station, but this shrunk dramatically in the mid-2000s and finally closed in 2013 as part of the development of Firstsite (an art gallery). From memory, the original idea was that it would be replaced by a new one as part of a redevelopment of the south east corner of the city centre (including the site of the current "bus station") to build a new shopping centre called "Vineyard Gate". Then the financial crisis happened and the redevelopment plans died, leaving the bus station homeless, hence the current unhappy arrangement.

Various more limited plans for the area have surfaced from the council from time to time but I think its current idea is a residential-led redevelopment of the surface car park in Vineyard Street, with no mention of a bus station.

Frankly, there's nowhere to put one in Colchester city centre without substantial redevelopment, and the only place where that could really happen is in that area. The issue would be either putting together a larger scheme that a bus station could be provided as part of (which seems not to be viable) or finding a lot of money just to provide a bus station (where from?)...

But wherever you put a bus station in Colchester, the one-way system and the use of cross-city routes mean that there will always be some destinations it doesn't serve, so some changes of bus will always require a bit of a walk.

 

[Snex]

I might be in the minority but unless there's a serious restriction narrow streets etc, or a real interchange with something like a railway station I'd rather see the vast majority of bus stations removed.

Bus services would be much better going a loop through the town so people can actually go to where they want to be rather than being told to go to a bus station which is miles away from where they're really going.

If every bus done the same loop, then interchanging isn't an issue. I know Darlington has been mentioned a few times but that's a place where it works currently and passenger numbers are no lower than anywhere else (every bus leaves from Tubwell Row).

Obviously you could make the case for building some of the stops integrated into a shopping centre like here in Essen - https://www.google.com/maps/@51.457...try=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI1MDEyMC4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw== which you could make the case for in Darlington, underneath the shopping there maybe?

 

[stevieinselby]

Rougier Street served as the defacto bus station for many years with the West Yorkshire travel office located there. Everything passed through there other than the Selby route.

Rougier Street is a poor substitute for a proper bus station. For a start, the shelters are inadequate for the number of passengers and leads to congestion on the pavements. There are no proper facilities for waiting passengers, and no layover space for terminating buses. And apart from the Selby and HOSM services, there are plenty of others that call at the Station Road/Station Avenue stops but not actually Rougier Street itself (1, 5/5A, 30/30X, 31X, 40, 80). It may be adequate as one of the main city centre stops on most routes, but don't give ideas above its (bus) station

 

[Teapot42]

I think that @Andyh82 was perhaps being slightly tongue in cheek. Some of the posters on here suggest that any bus station must be adjacent to rail station as that's how they do it in <insert Western European country here>, rather than the main traffic objectives.

To be fair, a lot of European countries have re-built their railway networks through cities so the station is better sited than many UK ones. Even if it's just burying the railway underground so public realm can occupy the space once taken up by the tracks and station building. (Delft is a good example here, albeit on that isn't so central to town)

I might be in the minority but unless there's a serious restriction narrow streets etc, or a real interchange with something like a railway station I'd rather see the vast majority of bus stations removed.

Bus services would be much better going a loop through the town so people can actually go to where they want to be rather than being told to go to a bus station which is miles away from where they're really going.

I think the main issue is that buses need somewhere the service can be regulated. Varying traffic levels mean timetables are padded, and if you have lots of services calling at just a handful of stops then it's difficult to achieve that without overcrowding.

This is the main issue in Chesterfield, many of the services follow a similar route, but there is one area where services are given space to wait time. This comprises a lot of stops along two sides of a road, taking up a lot of space and meaning changes here don't work well. It's also not very inviting and lacks facilities. Finding a similar space in most towns that is more appealing would be a challenge.

Depending what you mean about going in a loop through the town that can also add considerably to journey time on some routes.

I think there needs to be a combination of both really, routes serving the various parts of the town that people want to visit, but also a 'congregating' place where buses can wait time, lay over and passengers change between services.

 

[Snex]

I think the main issue is that buses need somewhere the service can be regulated. Varying traffic levels mean timetables are padded, and if you have lots of services calling at just a handful of stops then it's difficult to achieve that without overcrowding.

This is the main issue in Chesterfield, many of the services follow a similar route, but there is one area where services are given space to wait time. This comprises a lot of stops along two sides of a road, taking up a lot of space and meaning changes here don't work well. It's also not very inviting and lacks facilities. Finding a similar space in most towns that is more appealing would be a challenge.

Depending what you mean about going in a loop through the town that can also add considerably to journey time on some routes.

I think there needs to be a combination of both really, routes serving the various parts of the town that people want to visit, but also a 'congregating' place where buses can wait time, lay over and passengers change between services.

Yeah can't disagree with that in places like Chesterfield, agreed there definitely needs to be a spot where buses can layover if they're terminating there. It was more the likes of Bishop Auckland, Blyth, North Shields etc smaller places where I don't really see the point. No doubt there's similar places down there, think Matlock has one if I remember right and that ones just pointless aswell.

Obviously the ideal answer for places like Chesterfield is not having buses terminating in the centre so you don't have that problem, but that's easier said than done to be fair.

 

[cactustwirly]

Changing in Reading town centre between buses is a pain in the arse most of the time. You could well reinstate a better enclosed version of the old bus station on Station Hill (where the western taxi rank is - shove the others up to the eastern taxi rank by the statue).

I think it depends what route you are after, quite a few are at the station, but others like the 4 or the 17 go via St Mary's Butts instead. The 15 and 33 go from Friar Street which is a walk.

But if you are after the 3, 5, 6, 13, 14, 21, 23, 24, 26 or X40 they are close to the station so it's easy

 

[AlastairFraser]

I think it depends what route you are after, quite a few are at the station, but others like the 4 or the 17 go via St Mary's Butts instead. The 15 and 33 go from Friar Street which is a walk.

But if you are after the 3, 5, 6, 13, 14, 21, 23, 24, 26 or X40 they are close to the station so it's easy

That's the point though - interchanging from, say a Cav route, to the westbound 17 is quite common. Hence the need for a reasonably located central bus station.

 

[Snex]

That's the point though - interchanging from, say a Cav route, to the westbound 17 is quite common. Hence the need for a reasonably located central bus station.

Surely the better option would be to amend the routes so you don't have that problem. Reading has a stupid number of services terminating in the centre which just causes a headache with layovers blocking roads etc. Why not merge the routes and work on getting all the services crossing at some point running as cross city routes.

Brighton, who are always well regarded, can manage it without a bus station, for example - https://images-brightonhove.passenger-website.com/2024-10/Central Brighton map - updated October 2024.pdf

 

[JonathanH]

Reading has a stupid number of services terminating in the centre which just causes a headache with layovers blocking roads etc. Why not merge the routes and work on getting all the services crossing at some point running as cross city routes.

Cross town essentially doesn't work in Reading other than on the 17 because the demand is so unbalanced between the different parts of the town, and because of traffic congestion.

Station Hill worked as a 'bus station' for many years, adjacent to the station and the bus station, but the main loading points have generally been closer to the shops.

 

[cactustwirly]

Surely the better option would be to amend the routes so you don't have that problem. Reading has a stupid number of services terminating in the centre which just causes a headache with layovers blocking roads etc. Why not merge the routes and work on getting all the services crossing at some point running as cross city routes.

Brighton, who are always well regarded, can manage it without a bus station, for example - https://images-brightonhove.passenger-website.com/2024-10/Central Brighton map - updated October 2024.pdf

It used to be, what is now part of the 3 used to be joined up with what is the 25 running as the 9.

Caversham routes used to go to Coley Park and Calcot. But the the 26 is much more demand centric than the 25 for example, and you would be importing congestion from Caversham bridge to other routes

 

[JonathanH]

Caversham routes used to go to Coley Park and Calcot.

...and the hospital area, and Lower Earley. However, Caversham Heights now has one single deck bus once an hour when once there were five buses an hour on two routes.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Surely the better option would be to amend the routes so you don't have that problem. Reading has a stupid number of services terminating in the centre which just causes a headache with layovers blocking roads etc. Why not merge the routes and work on getting all the services crossing at some point running as cross city routes.

Brighton, who are always well regarded, can manage it without a bus station, for example - https://images-brightonhove.passenger-website.com/2024-10/Central Brighton map - updated October 2024.pdf

Brighton is a much newer place than Reading is, and it also has the advantage of the sea to the south, while Reading is relatively close to other urban areas in all directions.

That's why the traffic forced Reading Buses to split most routes. If you really want crosstown routes, you'd need a tram system for several corridors.
A bus station makes sense as an interim move, especially as that side of Station Hill is close to the Gt Knollys St depot, so you can minimise layovers on congested streets.

...and the hospital area, and Lower Earley. However, Caversham Heights now has one single deck bus once an hour when once there were five buses an hour on two routes.

This partly reflects the low demand for buses from the Heights set.

 

[Snex]

Cross town essentially doesn't work in Reading other than on the 17 because the demand is so unbalanced between the different parts of the town, and because of traffic congestion.

Station Hill worked as a 'bus station' for many years, adjacent to the station and the bus station, but the main loading points have generally been closer to the shops.

Brighton is a much newer place than Reading is, and it also has the advantage of the sea to the south, while Reading is relatively close to other urban areas in all directions.

That's why the traffic forced Reading Buses to split most routes. If you really want crosstown routes, you'd need a tram system for several corridors.
A bus station makes sense as an interim move, especially as that side of Station Hill is close to the Gt Knollys St depot, so you can minimise layovers on congested streets.

It used to be, what is now part of the 3 used to be joined up with what is the 25 running as the 9.

Caversham routes used to go to Coley Park and Calcot. But the the 26 is much more demand centric than the 25 for example, and you would be importing congestion from Caversham bridge to other routes

Going to reply together as I'd just be repeating myself. Yeah that makes sense then, sounds like the sort of place where traffic improvements are needed. Just seemed an awful lot of terminating services from an outsider point of view where there's not multiple operators at least anyway.

Obviously trams would be probably the ideal answer for a lot of places really but we're in Britain so that isn't happening anytime soon.

 

[Teapot42]

Yeah can't disagree with that in places like Chesterfield, agreed there definitely needs to be a spot where buses can layover if they're terminating there. It was more the likes of Bishop Auckland, Blyth, North Shields etc smaller places where I don't really see the point. No doubt there's similar places down there, think Matlock has one if I remember right and that ones just pointless aswell.

Obviously the ideal answer for places like Chesterfield is not having buses terminating in the centre so you don't have that problem, but that's easier said than done to be fair.

Matlock has a fair few services with a layover, plus the main road through town is very congested so I'd say that's one small town bus station that is quite useful. Assuming you are talking about the one in the centre and not the interchange, which I would agree was a waste of money. Mainly because it's awkward to access - they really should have made the old bridge buses only and allowed two-way traffic over it.

Cross-town services come with their own problems. For example, our route runs across town to Markham Vale or Creswell. There have been plenty of times when delays on that section have led to late running and Stagecoach took the decision to turn the bus in town rather than coming out to serve us. On one occasion we had no buses between 10am and 2pm as several were turned in a row. If that service had been split in two then at least both halves would have got something, even if there were still delays.

Cross-town where the frequency is 3 an hour or more it's less of an issue, but we have very few services that frequent.

 

[Hyebone]

Cross-town services come with their own problems. For example, our route runs across town to Markham Vale or Creswell. There have been plenty of times when delays on that section have led to late running and Stagecoach took the decision to turn the bus in town rather than coming out to serve us. On one occasion we had no buses between 10am and 2pm as several were turned in a row. If that service had been split in two then at least both halves would have got something, even if there were still delays.

That's why they split the Bolsover and Newbold route into the 10 and the 1/2. Even though they interwork in the evening and Sundays...

The 19:00 trip I usually catch, the vehicle comes off a 50 and it's timetabled to sit on Elder Way for 20 minutes. Back when Sheffield Road was carnage a few months ago, the 50 ended up getting delayed by upwards of 30 minutes several times and would cause that 10 trip to be delayed.

I digress; although, a bus station would encourage the operator to consider axing cross-town services as they would be able to use the facility for layovers, driver breaks etc similar to how Mansfield operates. The Pronto is the main "cross-town" route that operates; however, there's plenty of time on that route so it's not an issue. I can't speak for the 1 or 141.

Cross-town where the frequency is 3 an hour or more it's less of an issue, but we have very few services that frequent.

The 39 is an excellent example of this. There's loads of time on the route during the daytime. In fact, you get THIRTEEN more minutes on a round trip (HH -> Grangewood -> HH) in the daytime than you get in the evening/Sunday. Once I travelled with a friend on the 39 (he was the driver) one evening. We encountered a tractor-trailer on Park road. We lost about 10 minutes reversing about 80 metres in the pitch black. It took us nearly 2 hours to regain our time. The duality of the 39 is unmatched!

 

[busken]

Unfortua

Going to reply together as I'd just be repeating myself. Yeah that makes sense then, sounds like the sort of place where traffic improvements are needed. Just seemed an awful lot of terminating services from an outsider point of view where there's not multiple operators at least anyway.

Obviously trams would be probably the ideal answer for a lot of places really but we're in Britain so that isn't happening anytime soon.

Unfortunately Reading only has a few main access roads due to the railway, river and canal. Closing one or two, or even narrowing to provide a tram line would be impractical, not to mention the cost. I suppose you could use the bus lanes, but they are all short sections rather than one continuous route.

 

[cactustwirly]

Going to reply together as I'd just be repeating myself. Yeah that makes sense then, sounds like the sort of place where traffic improvements are needed. Just seemed an awful lot of terminating services from an outsider point of view where there's not multiple operators at least anyway.

Obviously trams would be probably the ideal answer for a lot of places really but we're in Britain so that isn't happening anytime soon.

They have already plastered the town with bus lanes, bus gates and one way systems

I think in some ways this has made the traffic worse as cars a fed through a limited number of routes. It's quite an old Town Centre with limited room to increase road capacity.

 

[Teapot42]

That's why they split the Bolsover and Newbold route into the 10 and the 1/2. Even though they interwork in the evening and Sundays...

I digress; although, a bus station would encourage the operator to consider axing cross-town services as they would be able to use the facility for layovers, driver breaks etc similar to how Mansfield operates. The Pronto is the main "cross-town" route that operates; however, there's plenty of time on that route so it's not an issue.

Thinking back, there seemed to be more cross-town services in the past, such as the 25 extending to Holymoorside. All I can think of now are the 39, 90 and X17, although the 55 and 170 sort of fit in as they extend to the hospital.

The X17 regularly has problems in the peaks and at the weekend to the point where even the 5 minute padding at the coach station isn't enough. Considering what Hulleys have been pinged by the TC for I'm very surprised Stagecoach haven't been warned to improve that.

I do wonder if being a cross-town route maybe makes the 90 - or at least the Walton side - more commercially viable? While I'd prefer to see it as a stand-alone service I've also seen the gutting of services to this side of town in recent years and wonder if it would be at risk if not part of a longer route

The 39 is an excellent example of this. There's loads of time on the route during the daytime. In fact, you get THIRTEEN more minutes on a round trip (HH -> Grangewood -> HH) in the daytime than you get in the evening/Sunday.

For those who don't know the route, the context is an evening trip gets around an hour, but if you just set off and drove the route (ignoring the fact there are bus gates...) it would take about 30 minutes to do the round trip.

That said, I'm not sure how similar the route is, but back in 1988 the 39 still took 1h10 for the complete round trip, so it's actually not increased by much compared with many services.

 

[markymark2000]

Matlock has a fair few services with a layover, plus the main road through town is very congested so I'd say that's one small town bus station that is quite useful. Assuming you are talking about the one in the centre and not the interchange, which I would agree was a waste of money. Mainly because it's awkward to access - they really should have made the old bridge buses only and allowed two-way traffic over it.

The bridge doesn't even need to be two way buses only, it just needs to permit right turns (even if it's right turns for buses only). Save the diversion being so long needlessly. Though according to an email thread that I have seen, Derbyshire Council insist that no one actually wants to every change between buses and trains so they really aren't bothered about facilitating such bus movements on supported or the commercial network.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Lots of good discussion. The whys and wherefores on cross town/city routes are particular to the individual location. In some, the challenge of congestion simply makes through routes so unreliable (though it doesn't seem to have deflected Bristol's combined authority). Geography is a factor in this especially if you have rivers/bridges that cause bottlenecks. However, I've always been of the view that bus stations aren't really needed for local services where headways are generally better. You're less likely to be standing for any length of time, so the facilities you might want as a passenger (e.g. warmth, toilets, cafes, etc) are less of a concern. In Bath, there is the situation where there are roadside stops outside the bus station. However, some cross city routes use them in one direction but not the other (which is, again, a reflection of the road network).

So in the example of Brighton, the city services don't need a bus station and arguably, the other main interurban corridors (to Newhaven, to Worthing, to Lewes) are at such a frequency that they don't need one either; in that respect, Brighton is an outlier. For the ones that are left, Horsham and the Metrobus 27* ones plus a few oddities, they probably can cope with being at Old Steine.

I think @RELL6L knows me too well. The West Yorkshire examples are SOME of the ones that, I feel, are a bit superfluous. Appreciate that service levels may have dropped in recent years but Batley is quite the structure for 12 departures per hour (typically). I guess that's the rub - you can have the lottery of different local authorities with different priorities so that a small town in one place gets something quite grandiose whilst another larger town just over the border has either a rather basic facility or nothing at all. For good examples of this... see Kidderminster vs Stourbridge, or Derbyshire vs Nottinghamshire. In southern England, there is the added complication that land prices are SO high that a bus station is regarded as secondary to commercial concerns.

Technically the stops on Osborne and Stanwell Streets are classed as the bus station, but I agree they are completely insufficient (and the waiting room opening hours are ridiculous).

I am all too well aware of the "bus station" but it's not - it's a load of bus shelters with insufficient capacity for the services using it and a grim waiting room.

If every bus done the same loop, then interchanging isn't an issue. I know Darlington has been mentioned a few times but that's a place where it works currently and passenger numbers are no lower than anywhere else (every bus leaves from Tubwell Row).

In the days of the old Darlington bus station, none of the town services used it; the most local you had was the Airport to Hurworth service. So whilst town routes don't need anything extra, the current situation is not great for waiting for interurban services or interchanging.

Not certain that every bus leaves from Tubwell Row - the Teesdale and North Yorkshire ones go from the Town Hall, next to the old bus station site

Rougier Street is a poor substitute for a proper bus station.

I wasn't suggesting it was an option

 

[AlastairFraser]

Going to reply together as I'd just be repeating myself. Yeah that makes sense then, sounds like the sort of place where traffic improvements are needed. Just seemed an awful lot of terminating services from an outsider point of view where there's not multiple operators at least anyway.

Obviously trams would be probably the ideal answer for a lot of places really but we're in Britain so that isn't happening anytime soon.

There is one thing that could take a lot of traffic out of central Reading and help things (the proposed 3rd Thames Bridge from Thames Valley Park to Playhatch), but the north side authority at that point (South Oxfordshire) have always opposed it.
That would be one thing that the new government could help with planning wise.

Any further interventions would need 1) trams or 2) a congestion charge zone for central Reading to stop most of the east west through traffic and force it via the M4/roads like Lower Earley Way.

 

[ChrisC]

I digress; although, a bus station would encourage the operator to consider axing cross-town services as they would be able to use the facility for layovers, driver breaks etc similar to how Mansfield operates. The Pronto is the main "cross-town" route that operates; however, there's plenty of time on that route so it's not an issue. I can't speak for the 1 or 141.

To add to your digressions, timekeeping on the 141 is terrible and the route really does need splitting at Mansfield Bus Station. The extension across Mansfield to Sutton in Ashfield was added years ago to provide direct buses from Blidworth and Rainworth to Kings Mill Hospital. Short turn around times at both Nottingham and Sutton in Ashfield doesn’t allow for any late running and changing of drivers at Mansfield isn’t always as quick as it should be. It’s no fun waiting at rural bus stops around the villages between Mansfield and Nottingham for an hourly bus which by late afternoon can regularly be running in excess of 30 minutes late. Just looking currently at today and all four buses on the route are running late with two buses running around 30 minutes late. Buses become later and later as the day goes on. The timings for section between Mansfield and Nottingham are no different now to what they were when it was the Midland General B8 over 50 years ago! There’s been no time added over the years for extra traffic or the diversions in Hucknall via Ward Avenue, round by Tesco or for leaving the main road to serve the top of Bestwoood Village. Buses still leave Mansfield and Nottingham at the same times as they did when I used the route as a teenager in the 1970’s.


To return to bus stations I find Nottingham very inconvenient if trying to do a bus journey from the north of the county involving a connection in Nottingham. The Victoria Bus Station and the new Broad Marsh Bus Station are both so far out of the City Centre. Looking at Google Maps I was surprised to see that they are almost a mile apart even by the shortest walking route. Even a walk from the Victoria and Broad Marsh Bus Stations to buses which depart from Friar Lane near the Market Square is quite a distance.

 

[JD2168]

Worksop:
The bus station is quite a distance from the Train Station & is actually further than it used to be on Newcastle Street next to the Stagecoach depot. It is a smart recently built building but has a low number of layover bays.

 

[317 forever]

I used Northampton bus station around 10 years ago. It was then a recent opening and seemed rather cramped. More recently, I used Horsham bus station which also seemed rather cramped.

 

[PeterC]

Ross on Wye has signposts directing pedestrians to a "bus station". I followed these and found some kerbside stops in a street behind the shops. The county council seem to disagree as the official name is just the street name.

 

[Ken H]

This is Colne bus station. Only 1 stand gets much use for buses going to Burnley. Buses going away from Burnley to Keighley, Trawden, Barnoldswick and Skipton go from the parallel Market St. You could replace the bus station with a layby IMHO edit. google maps link added - https://maps.app.goo.gl/n9wEyGUdNCqPb6V98

Leeds. Oh dear. Some out of town buses use the bus station, but they form part of the Leeds bus network because they stop at all stops.
Other buses are cross Leeds and serve the city centre on the way. But First have recently chopped the long standing Morley - Meanwood cross city service so both terminate in city streets.

 

[Statto]

This is Colne bus station. Only 1 stand gets much use for buses going to Burnley. Buses going away from Burnley to Keighley, Trawden, Barnoldswick and Skipton go from the parallel Market St. \you could replace the bus station with a layby IMHO

Leeds. Oh dear. Some out of town buses use the bus station, but they form part of the Leeds bus network because they stop at all stops.
Other buses are cross Leeds and serve the city centre on the way. But First have recently chopped the long standing Morley - Meanwood cross city service so both terminate in city streets.

My biggest gripe with Leeds bus station, is the traffic lights when exiting the bus station, i was last their before Covid so don't know if the system has changed, the traffic lights were on green that allowed 2 or 3 buses to pass through before changing to red again, then stayed on red for an age, you could go through 3 or 4 cycles before passing through those lights, you had daft situations were the bus departed from the stand on time, could then ending up 10 minutes late by the time the bus cleared the lights at the exit.