Trolleybuses

[edwin_m]

So ideal for northern cities/towns like leeds/bradford/Huddersfield then.

Perhaps, but only if a way can be found round deregulation. Nobody is going to invest that much in fixed infrastructure if they face unrestricted competition. Trams face the same problem to some extent, but they can run off-street and compete on speed.

 

[dm1]

That's a total of four in the last decade or so. The Wikipedia page for tram systems includes about 80 that have opened in the same period, including a couple of dozen in China that I'd never heard of. I think that illustrates my point that the combination of circumstances that makes the trolleybus the best choice is pretty rare.

Rome and Prague are very hilly cities so it may well be that trolleybus is suitable there as I suggested in a previous post. In Berlin it appears they are electrifying trunk bus routes but most of the mileage will be under battery power. So it's not really a traditional trolleybus, but nevertheless an interesting way of harnessing the best of both that may be applicable in other cities with a lot of bus operation.

My list was by no means exhaustive, and there are definitely a few systems in China that have opened relatively recently. Many major chinese cities already have trolleybus systems, but have also been expanding them significantly, including Beijing.

Electrifying trunk routes with IMC (in-motion charging) trolleybuses is pretty much exactly how almost every new trolleybus system has or is being built, because that is effectively state of the art for trolleybuses today.

I'm by no means arguing that trolleybuses are inherently better than trams. They serve different purposes, both in terms of transport hierarchy and in terms of capacity, depending on exactly how they are built . I think there should also be far more new tram systems in the UK than there are. Equally I think there are definitely tram/light rail systems worldwide that should probably have been built as heavy rail lines or as light metros instead, but were not for various reasons.

For electrifying high capacity bus corridors that either have too much branching, or do not need the capacity of a tram, trolleybuses are an option well-worth considering together with other bus electrification systems. There are many such corridors worldwide and in the UK, but curently in the UK we only see either depot charging or opportunity charging, both of which while useful, have disadvantages and limitations which IMC trolleybus systems do not. That makes at least looking at them as a serious option worthwhile, whereas at the moment they appear to be dismissed out of hand.

 

[carlberry]

I've discussed that more extensively in other posts of mine here. I just think it's insane that there are none left in the UK and none on the horizon, and I think it's more to do with those in charge just not understanding how trolleybuses have developed since they disappeared in the UK and the situations where they might be useful, as well as deregulation making them difficult to arrange in a stable way. A private bus operator with almost no capital funding that doesn't know if they will still exist in 5 years won't invest in infrastructure that will take 10 years to pay itself back financially in reduced maintenance and fuel costs, as well as longer vehicle lifetime. Trams are shinier than trolleybuses, so are inherently more attractive to politicians. That doesn't always make them the better solution, even in the UK.

The problem with trolleybuses isn't really that people don't understand that the technology has developed, or deregulation (which hasn't stopped vast amounts of money being spent on tram systems), it's more that they basically represent a system that combines the disadvantages of buses and the disadvantages of trams.

They need a lot of capital expenditure on very fixed routes (like trams) but then have to run with the traffic and don't have a reserved footprint (like buses most of the time). Electric buses already offer a significant percentage of the availability of trolleybuses and opportunity charging (which is little different from trolleybuses but only in areas that you can get away with building the additional structures) offers almost the same availability already and advances in technology are likely to mean more cities will follow Moscow, not Prague.

 

[dm1]

advances in technology are likely to mean more cities will follow Moscow, not Prague.

I was wondering when someone would bring up Moscow. The removal of trolleybuses in Moscow was soundly derided by almost all transport experts and was driven almost exclusively by the mayor's personal dislike for overhead wires and desire to sell off the trolleybus depots to his friends for development.

The trolleybus lines were nominally replaced with opportunity charging buses, but in reality the vast majority were initially replaced with diesel buses, and those that weren't used buses with diesel heating as the batteries weren't powerful enough to heat them during winter (said heaters do not conform to any emissions regulations so were far more dirty than diesel buses for half the year).

The new electric buses cost 30% more than an equivalent new trolleybus, and twice as many e-buses were required to replace the trolleybuses on a given line. They spend 30% of their time standing at termini charging, and they are not allowed to be left unattended during this time, so driver utilisation fell significantly. Reliability of the new buses continues to be terrible. Said chargers take up an inordinate amount of space as well, and there are simply not enough of them for the frequencies that should be running and were running before.

Lower driver utilisation means service frequencies on the entire bus network have fallen considerably since the trolleybuses were removed, and even now, several years later, there are fewer electric buses in service than there were trolleybuses. Advances in technology do not change the laws of physics.

Meanwhile, St. Petersburg took the sensible route and has started augmenting its trolleybus network with IMC trolleybuses, to increase the number of buses running electrically without requiring any new infrastructure and reduce the number of diesel buses. Had Moscow done the same, and also installed some opportunity chargers where appropriate, all diesel buses could have been removed from the entire city by now, at no extra cost, just by replacing diesel buses at the end of their life with either IMC (in-motion charging) trolleybuses or e-buses as appropriate, instead of replacing the trolleybuses with e-buses.

In other words, following Moscow would be the last thing any competent mayor of a city would do. Moscow had the perfect infrastructure to electrify everything easily, and squandered it completely. I suspect we will see trolleybuses in Moscow again sooner or later.

 

[Spamcan81]

I think the poles were sprung upwards. There was a slot at the end of each pole with a carbon insert. That ran along the wire. It made a sort of 'zinng' noise as it went past. These things actually nipped along quite quick. Here is a link to a you tube movie of them in Bradford -

(I dont know if the movie was transferred to digital correctly so is a little speeded up...)

Thanks for that link. Happy memories of travelling on them during in the 60s.

 

[Ken H]

Has anyone any numbers/guesstimate of the capital and operating costs of trams, trolleybuses and battery buses?

 

[Typhoon]

I can remember trolleybuses travelling past my primary school in South East London with affection. However, the infrastructure was developed when motor traffic was in its infancy and there was much less 'street furniture' and what there was was erected by one of a few largely public service organisations. Now vehicles park anywhere and everywhere; on a bus route near me passengers are not infrequently taken on a short diversion as the bus cannot turn right because of inconsiderate parking, not possible with trolleys (trams at least have the exact route marked in the road). Private utility companies seem to be able to erect whatever they want without councils being able to do anything about it. Trolleybus systems are more suited to those countries where the government, state wide or regional, holds sway.

 

[Vespa]

Trolleybuses were in many ways the natural successor to the trams as they could use the overhead infrastructure and power supplies without the need for track. Going back years the track in many urban areas was subject to subsidence which caused serious issues. Another advantage, overlooked now, was that many local authorities had their own power station and so the corporation could buy electricity cheaply. When the electricity supply industry was nationalised, it was no longer possible to buy cheap electricity and that gave another reason to abandon them. Buses were far more flexible (in the 1960s many towns road systems were being redeveloped), running costs far cheaper and I think Bradford only survived by buying equipment from authorities abandoning trolleybuses.

The art of driving a trolleybus properly took time to learn. Three braking systems, 5mph through junctions, knowing which junctions where you had to keep power on and where you had to coast, avoid traffic while at the same time stick under the wires etc. Going around gentle bends at pace could cause a de-wirement if you got it wrong and positioned the vehicle in the wrong place. Law of mechanics suggests that the outer boom could travel faster or slower than the other thereby causing your boom to come off. So the driver had to judge speed and his relative position under the wires otherwise it was get the boom out from under the bus (typically) and put the pole back on which was not easy in the dark. Imagine doing this in the smogs we used to have - sometimes a line of lights were installed alongside the overhead to assist the driver.

It was essential that the driver understood how a trolleybus worked from an electrical perspective which was different from a motorbus of course. Parallel / serial operation, resistor banks, notches and all that. Fascinating stuff when you delve into it.

I must be one of the few or the only one on this site to have driven both trams and trolleybuses (and trains), it is interesting to note that the driving and braking controls is the same side.

Power handle or pedal LEFT
Brake controls RIGHT.

This was to make it easier to move over from trams to trolleybus when they first transitioned over.

Driving it is very interesting and you had to be on the ball as to where the section breaks are, overhead junctions, driving round bends gently and you had to be in tune listening to your bus behavior so much so that you and the bus are essentially one, it does pick up speed very quickly and it's very quiet so you had to watch that people don't hear you coming.

I enjoyed it.

 

[Busaholic]

Rome and Prague are very hilly cities so it may well be that trolleybus is suitable there as I suggested in a previous post. In Berlin it appears they are electrifying trunk bus routes but most of the mileage will be under battery power. So it's not really a traditional trolleybus, but nevertheless an interesting way of harnessing the best of both that may be applicable in other cities with a lot of bus operation.

I think you're getting it at last. I'd say the very few tram/light rail systems that have managed to be established in the U.K in recent years. are not traditional trams either, particularly as they all lack an upper deck!

 

[Wyrleybart]

But connecting the pole to the wire was quite tricky....

Not so sure about that. Wasn't it a duty of the conductor ?

I don't really know a great deal about the operations but I do know that in the final year of the Walsall trolleybuses, one of the tours boldly went where no trolleybus had been before. They had worked out the route they wanted to do, but they needed to manually push the vehicle round an unwired corner to get back under the wires.

 

[dm1]

Has anyone any numbers/guesstimate of the capital and operating costs of trams, trolleybuses and battery buses?

This article compares capital costs of trolleybuses and battery buses in Canada:

Bus Electrification: A comparison of capital costs - Urban Transport Magazine

INDUSTRY FOCUS: Alternative Propulsion Systems 1. Introduction In the last few years, transport planners have increasingly been concerned about the need to move towards a low carbon/zero carbon future. Even for cities with extensive electric metro and light rail services, the aim is to replace...

www.urban-transport-magazine.com

This 300+ page report about Berlin has very detailed calculations and comparisons of trolleybuses and battery buses and the infrastructure required. The numbers you are looking for can be found in chapter 6.4 (in German)

SchlussberichtBatterie-OberleitungsbusBerlin-Spandau230120.pdf

fragdenstaat.de

I haven't seen many direct comparisons with trams, although they probably exist.

 

[Gag Halfrunt]

I don't really know a great deal about the operations but I do know that in the final year of the Walsall trolleybuses, one of the tours boldly went where no trolleybus had been before. They had worked out the route they wanted to do, but they needed to manually push the vehicle round an unwired corner to get back under the wires.

Here's a historic trolleybus running on the wired part of Prague's new trolleybus route, with help from a tow truck.

 

[AB93]

was it the same licence and test as a motor bus?

Category 'M' remains a current licence category for the DVLA for "trolley vehicles".

 

[2192]

was it the same licence and test as a motor bus?

My father's driving licence covered him to drive trolleybuses, even though he passed his test in the 1930's in a car. His licence (in a little red book was type 6)
He never drove a trolleybus in his life.
I passed the test in a car in about 1960. My licence, also in a little red book, did not include trolleybuses. It was type 6A.
So the government changed the rules some time in between.

 

[Vespa]

My father's driving licence covered him to drive trolleybuses, even though he passed his test in the 1930's in a car. His licence (in a little red book was type 6)
He never drove a trolleybus in his life.
I passed the test in a car in about 1960. My licence, also in a little red book, did not include trolleybuses. It was type 6A.
So the government changed the rules some time in between.

I too can drive a bus on my licence albeit not for hire or reward, I could convert it if I wanted to.

I think category M was retained in case Trolleybuses makes a comeback, don't think trams have a category as it runs on its own rail.

Newer licence now have the most basic entitlements and if you want to expand it to lorries and buses you have to take a separate test. Most young people are not inclined to do so, creating future driver shortages in the future. 7.5t and minibus drivers pre 1997 are now in their 50s and approaching retirement, but that's a discussion for another time.

 

[daodao]

The removal of trolleybuses in Moscow was .... driven almost exclusively by the mayor's personal general dislike for overhead wires

For the same reason that London's trams used the conduit system in those central areas where they were permitted and its trolleybus network was even less extensive, e.g. never ran across Westminster Bridge.

 

[Busaholic]

I too can drive a bus on my licence albeit not for hire or reward, I could convert it if I wanted to.

I think category M was retained in case Trolleybuses makes a comeback, don't think trams have a category as it runs on its own rail.

Trams have never been covered by a driving licence in the U.K. so far as I know. They still operate according to the design principles established by Frank J. Sprague in Virginia, USA in 1887, and are essentially trains running at street level.

 

[Roger1973]

was it the same licence and test as a motor bus?

As others have said, no. Trolleybus crews did not need to have a PSV driver or conductor licence (although with some operators, some drivers and more often conductors would have licences for both for flexibility.) Trolleybus drivers (unless they already had a PSV driving licence) had to go through the PSV test when systems converted to bus.

London's tram and trolleybus crews got something that looked like a PSV badge, but with the letter T before the number, and 'Metropolitan Stage Carriage' rather than 'Public Service Vehicle' lettering (they were also a different colour - light blue for drivers, brown for conductors)

Now vehicles park anywhere and everywhere; on a bus route near me passengers are not infrequently taken on a short diversion as the bus cannot turn right because of inconsiderate parking, not possible with trolleys

Yes and no - London's trolleybuses mostly had traction batteries and could go a short distance (and at fairly low speed) on battery - there were approved battery turns (some involving reversing in to a side street but some 'round the block' turns like this (flickr photo - not mine) and battery power could be used in emergency (not sure if the rules allowed it to be used with passengers on board) - and someone has mentioned 'hybrid' trolleybuses which can operate on battery for short bits of the route.

Not so sure about that. Wasn't it a duty of the conductor ?

putting the poles up (or sorting them out after a de-wirement) was usually the conductor's job in the UK - don't think any operator got as far as one person operated trolleybuses (although Hull's final batch with front entrance was designed with it in mind) but OPO trolleybuses ran / run elsewhere.

For the same reason that London's trams used the conduit system in those central areas where they were permitted and its trolleybus network was even less extensive, e.g. never ran across Westminster Bridge.

Yes and no - the tram to trolleybus conversion plan was (largely) north London first (since the main tram overhaul works was at Charlton) and plans were in place for converting the south London routes to trolleybus - it would probably have finished around 1943 if the 'international situation' had not interrupted it.

Trolleybuses (with overhead wires) replaced conduit trams at almost all of the north London termini, and beyond them in the case of Holborn / Farringdon Road. (Aldersgate never got trolleybuses as there wasn't anywhere to put a turning circle.) The decision was made after the war to replace the remaining trams with buses instead.

Plans for the Kingsway Subway (where there wasn't room for overhead wires) were all a bit fuzzy - one idea involved detachable trailers that could pick up power from the conduit. I'm not sure how far they got with that.


Another argument for removing trolleybuses in the 60s was the cost of new overhead for the increasing number of road layout changes due to combination of town centre redevelopments, road widenings and one-way systems. Reading claims to have invented the contra-flow bus lane as the road scheme needed to happen a relatively short time before new buses were available, so one lane on an otherwise one-way road was reserved for trolleybuses, initially as a short term measure.

 

[mark-h]

Trolleybus crews did not need to have a PSV driver or conductor licence (although with some operators, some drivers and more often conductors would have licences for both for flexibility.) Trolleybus drivers (unless they already had a PSV driving licence) had to go through the PSV test when systems converted to bus.

Would that be the case if IMC trolleybuses were introduced as they operate some of their route as unwired electric buses?

 

[Snow1964]

I remember my Dad taking me to the last day of Bournemouth trolleybus network. They were pale yellow, and I think made by Sunbeam of Wolverhampton (which in later years were owned by Guy motors)

There was also a turntable at Christchurch (unpowered), the driver and conductor physically lent on corners of the vehicle to push it round. I think these were incredibly rare as only installed where wasn’t space for a turning loop. I think it is still there but now in a Courtyard of newer building.

EDIT (have found a link with picture of the turntable), note how the overhead just crossed it, so poles had to be dropped to turn the bus

Bournemouth Trolley WRU273 on Christchurch Turntable 1969

On 25/1/69,a few months before closure at Christchurch Terminus is No.273 , a 1958 Sunbeam MF2B/Weymann being pushed around the turntable by the conductor. This feature was unique to the Bournemouth system. From my "Britains Last Trolleybuses" (pt 1 ) book.

www.flickr.com

 

[londontransit]

There have been some new systems that have opened, a cursory look through this article gives Marrakech in Morocco and a couple of cities in Turkey that have started new systems in the last decade or so.

Prague also opened a new trolleybus system in 2017, and significant expansion has occured since then and is still planned. Rome opened a new system in 2005, with some expansion planned. Berlin is currently planning a new trolleybus system, having performed extensive analysis of the best way to electrify their entire bus network (I am genuinely interested in what a similar analysis in London, looking at the entire bus network as a whole would show. I suspect it might also be IMC electrification).

These are all brand new systems. Some of the cities listed had trolleybuses previously, but abolished them entirely in a similar way to the UK. As I mentioned earlier, trolleybus lines and systems are much less shiny than tram systems, so we don't hear about them as much. But they still exist. We don't hear about every bus line that starts using opportunity charigng for e-buses either.

One of the world's most obscure countries has a trolleybus system that's being being expanded practically every year (I'm writing on this for my blog) thus clearly trolleybuses are still an excellent form of transport in many places - despite a number of countries deciding (a lack of forethought perhaps) that trolleys are obsolete.

I recollect them in Bradford and Saltaire.

I also remember the chaos caused when the pole came off the wires and the hook had to be brought out from under the bus. I suspected the maintenance was on the “just enough” principle.

The ride always seemed much smoother than motor buses. Much as it is between MKIV and Azuma.

I remember Reading's trolleybuses very well. One of the last systems to operate in the south besides Bournemouth.

As I have mentioned quite a few times elsewhere on social media, I also remember London's trolleybuses, especially Gray's Inn Road and around King's Cross.

 

[Caboose Class]

@RedRoverTicket wrote:- One of the world's most obscure countries has a trolleybus system that's being being expanded practically every year (I'm writing on this for my blog) thus clearly trolleybuses are still an excellent form of transport in many places - despite a number of countries deciding (a lack of forethought perhaps) that trolleys are obsolete.

Which country?

 

[Kremlin Stooge]

Did the British networks use a standardised voltage (thinking about manufacturing economies of scale here)? Or did each network have its own bespoke requirements for electrical equipment?

 

[Vespa]

Did the British networks use a standardised voltage (thinking about manufacturing economies of scale here)? Or did each network have its own bespoke requirements for electrical equipment?

Most were 600v DC same as the Tram system it replaced as the trolleybus took over the wiring, this makes it easier for commonality of parts.

 

[londontransit]

@RedRoverTicket wrote:- One of the world's most obscure countries has a trolleybus system that's being being expanded practically every year (I'm writing on this for my blog) thus clearly trolleybuses are still an excellent form of transport in many places - despite a number of countries deciding (a lack of forethought perhaps) that trolleys are obsolete.

Which country?

Pridnestrovie

 

[Busaholic]

Pridnestrovie

That meets the obscurity test! Wasn't Michael Caine once the ambassador there?

 

[londontransit]

That meets the obscurity test! Wasn't Michael Caine once the ambassador there?

You're better informed than I am!

 

[Wychwood93]

I remember my Dad taking me to the last day of Bournemouth trolleybus network. They were pale yellow, and I think made by Sunbeam of Wolverhampton (which in later years were owned by Guy motors)

There was also a turntable at Christchurch (unpowered), the driver and conductor physically lent on corners of the vehicle to push it round. I think these were incredibly rare as only installed where wasn’t space for a turning loop. I think it is still there but now in a Courtyard of newer building.

EDIT (have found a link with picture of the turntable), note how the overhead just crossed it, so poles had to be dropped to turn the bus

Bournemouth Trolley WRU273 on Christchurch Turntable 1969

On 25/1/69,a few months before closure at Christchurch Terminus is No.273 , a 1958 Sunbeam MF2B/Weymann being pushed around the turntable by the conductor. This feature was unique to the Bournemouth system. From my "Britains Last Trolleybuses" (pt 1 ) book.

www.flickr.com

See also: Trolleybuses in Bournemouth - Wikipedia

 

[Snow1964]

Most were 600v DC same as the Tram system it replaced as the trolleybus took over the wiring, this makes it easier for commonality of parts.

It also simplified the changeover from trams, in most cases a second wire (the trolleybus return wire) was installed prior to changeover. There were some sections during phased changeovers where one tram route was sharing a road with a new trolleybus route.

 

[2192]

... Another argument for removing trolleybuses in the 60s was the cost of new overhead for the increasing number of road layout changes due to combination of town centre redevelopments, road widenings and one-way systems. Reading claims to have invented the contra-flow bus lane as the road scheme needed to happen a relatively short time before new buses were available, so one lane on an otherwise one-way road was reserved for trolleybuses, initially as a short term measure.

Later on ordinary buses used the contra-flow (Kings Rd.?) on all routes, and maybe taxis as well. Trolleybuses didn't half move as there was seldom any other vehicles in front!