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UK face coverings discussion

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NorthOxonian

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I agree with this as well, I hate seeing a faceless society. I do think though that ultimately masks won't last at all long term, past the pandemic. People who want them to stay around are very much in the significant minority and even pro-maskers are wearing them in the hope that it will make the pandemic be over quicker.

I hope so. My concerns are that the following will happen (which I consider fairly likely):

1. This winter's restrictions mean that we have a very mild flu season, killing far fewer people than normal.
2. A vaccine, herd immunity, or some miracle moonshot happens, and by summer next year life is back to normal (and by that I mean a proper normal!)
3. Since bad flu years tend to follow mild ones, the 2021-22 season sees rather high death rates than normal, probably north of 20,000, and potentially even higher than 30,000.
4. It is decided that we should wear masks in various settings throughout that winter because of that.

If that were to happen, I think it could set a very dangerous precedent. Luckily, I think most people dislike masks and as you say will want to see the back of them, once they no longer have much point. And I also think people will want to avoid wearing them in future, simply because masks will remind them of how miserable 2020 was!
 
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Bantamzen

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Surely every medical expert you quote can be opposed by other medical experts (similar to Brexit where there was economists on both sides saying differing things) who say actually, just wear a mask? I don’t know what memes you’re talking about so I can’t really comment, maybe I don’t use social media enough.

Dig a little deeper into the medical expert advice and you'll find that there are practically no studies on the effectiveness of masks in public settings in terms of reducing the spread of viruses. Most studies relate to their use in medical settings, where much more stringent hygiene regimes exist, i.e. hands to bee washed immediately before applying or immediately after removing masks, if touched they should be securely replaced etc etc. And there are good reasons for this, because if you do have the virus instead of the viral load being exhaled into the air and rapidly dispersed, a mask can collect the load and if the medical protocols are not followed could easily be transferred to common surfaces where the risk of spread might actually be higher.

So for these two reasons many people object to their use because a few experts think that they "might work", and of course others are genuinely concerned that they might actually be part of the problem. And looking at the data, increased mask mandating doesn't seem to be working in a lot of countries.
 

35B

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Dig a little deeper into the medical expert advice and you'll find that there are practically no studies on the effectiveness of masks in public settings in terms of reducing the spread of viruses. Most studies relate to their use in medical settings, where much more stringent hygiene regimes exist, i.e. hands to bee washed immediately before applying or immediately after removing masks, if touched they should be securely replaced etc etc. And there are good reasons for this, because if you do have the virus instead of the viral load being exhaled into the air and rapidly dispersed, a mask can collect the load and if the medical protocols are not followed could easily be transferred to common surfaces where the risk of spread might actually be higher.

So for these two reasons many people object to their use because a few experts think that they "might work", and of course others are genuinely concerned that they might actually be part of the problem. And looking at the data, increased mask mandating doesn't seem to be working in a lot of countries.
That myth about there being no studies is oft repeated. Yet where a study has been conducted - in Jena - and shown a marked reduction in transmission in the community, it gets ignored or dismissed. Apparently it’s not a randomised control trial, or its observational, so doesn't really count.

This is then followed up, repeatedly, by toxic language about “maskivists” or “Karens”, deriding those who are willing to wear masks. It then progresses into assertions about civil liberties, decrying and denying the rights of government to implement public health measures.

I dislike mask wearing in public, for the same reasons that I dislike other face coverings in public - they remove an important part of the person wearing them from the public domain. When it comes to wearing on myself, they are also uncomfortable, tiresome and of limited benefit to me personally.

Yet I do so, willingly, because I recognise that my actions have impact on others. They are a measure that benefit my fellow man more than they do me, and they help create a climate that allows those more vulnerable to lead something more like a normal life. As much to the point, I respect the law and am not so solipsistic that I consider myself above it.

There are good reasons to be uncomfortable with how the government are acting, and especially how they’re introducing these regulations. These measures are only acceptable if limited in time, it does nothing for anyone’s confidence when the regulations are only published late the night before they come into effect, and the emasculation of Parliament is worrying. And, yes, enforcement is often cackhanded and crude. Those, and others, are very valid arguments, and are - too rarely - presented. Unfortunately, what’s instead presented too often is the view that someone’s above/better than the law, deriding those they disagree with while using the same or more aggressive language than that they disagree with.
 

Bantamzen

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That myth about there being no studies is oft repeated. Yet where a study has been conducted - in Jena - and shown a marked reduction in transmission in the community, it gets ignored or dismissed. Apparently it’s not a randomised control trial, or its observational, so doesn't really count.

Unfortunately when countries like Spain & France that have had stricter mask mandates & still record increases then doubt is cast.
 

35B

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Unfortunately when countries like Spain & France that have had stricter mask mandates & still record increases then doubt is cast.
Doubt, quite possibly. Though what the study I mention, and others like it, show is not prevention of spread, but limitation. The counterfactual, which I agree can be argued in both directions, is over what would have happened without masks; I'd suggest the growth would have been still faster, others would argue the masks are an irrelevance.

However, with respect, what I see from some on the subject is not doubt but something very much stronger.
 

DB

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Doubt, quite possibly. Though what the study I mention, and others like it, show is not prevention of spread, but limitation. The counterfactual, which I agree can be argued in both directions, is over what would have happened without masks; I'd suggest the growth would have been still faster, others would argue the masks are an irrelevance.

However, with respect, what I see from some on the subject is not doubt but something very much stronger.

Logically, there would be expected to be a noticeable change in the tragectory of the line on the cases graph when masks were introduced, if they made a difference. So far as I am aware, this has not been observed in any case.
 

35B

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Logically, there would be expected to be a noticeable change in the tragectory of the line on the cases graph when masks were introduced, if they made a difference. So far as I am aware, this has not been observed in any case.
Fair comment, though as there are other factors influencing transmission, how directly cause and effect are linked may be questioned.
 

DB

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Fair comment, though as there are other factors influencing transmission, how directly cause and effect are linked may be questioned.

Indeed - but given how many countries have tried masks, it would be very surprising if no effect was observable in any of them (but so far as I know that is indeed the case).
 

Darandio

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Despite being near flawless since March, my local Asda have finally lost the plot this morning with this exchange....

Staff: Where is your mask?
Customer: I don't need one, i'm exempt.
Staff: Okay but from tomorrow you will need to bring information about what is wrong with you.

Words fail me.
 

Meerkat

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Despite being near flawless since March, my local Asda have finally lost the plot this morning with this exchange....

Staff: Where is your mask?
Customer: I don't need one, i'm exempt.
Staff: Okay but from tomorrow you will need to bring information about what is wrong with you.

Words fail me.
What did they do wrong? I bet they don’t get at all fussy about that information, they just want to put off the “got asthma ain’t I mate” crowd who just don’t want to wear a mask.
Surely you presumably have more reason than most to want as many people as possible to wear a mask?
 

Bletchleyite

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What did they do wrong? I bet they don’t get at all fussy about that information, they just want to put off the “got asthma ain’t I mate” crowd who just don’t want to wear a mask.
Surely you presumably have more reason than most to want as many people as possible to wear a mask?

This is what I don't get. I think it's because of people not supporting the idea of masks. Nobody complains that you have to register and prove entitlement to a Blue Badge - by that registration you get entitled to something of benefit, and are protected in law from others causing you a problem by misusing the entitlement.

It comes across to me as "I'm disabled but I'm not going to tell you what my disability is so you have to work it out for yourself. I want you to stop those kids over there abusing the facilities for me, but I won't help you do so".

I really, really struggle to understand this view. Why not just get a sunflower lanyard?
 

Darandio

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What did they do wrong? I bet they don’t get at all fussy about that information, they just want to put off the “got asthma ain’t I mate” crowd who just don’t want to wear a mask.
Surely you presumably have more reason than most to want as many people as possible to wear a mask?

What's wrong? They want information about a customers condition?

I'd like to see everyone comply that is required to do so, my view on this has gone up ten fold since my dad was diagnosed. What I don't agree with is someone effectively wanting to see what is wrong with you.
 

Meerkat

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This is what I don't get. I think it's because of people not supporting the idea of masks. Nobody complains that you have to register and prove entitlement to a Blue Badge - by that registration you get entitled to something of benefit, and are protected in law from others causing you a problem by misusing the entitlement.
I am assuming that the only reasons that entitlement doesn’t have to be proved is they don’t have the time and will for battles over who is in and who is out (particularly the fervent parents of kids with mental conditions), and know the GP system couldn’t cope with the queue of people wanting a letter.

Knew I should have kept that inhaler I had for a chest infection a couple of years back.....

What's wrong? They want information about a customers condition?

I'd like to see everyone comply that is required to do so, my view on this has gone up ten fold since my dad was diagnosed. What I don't agree with is someone effectively wanting to see what is wrong with you.
So you don’t want spurious non-mask wearing, but you don’t want anybody to be able to stop it - you see the inconsistency there right?
 

Darandio

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So you don’t want spurious non-mask wearing, but you don’t want anybody to be able to stop it - you see the inconsistency there right?

Personally i'd rather no mask wearing because it's increasingly clear to me (in my opinion!) that it isn't working, then we avoid this situation altogether. Stick to social distancing, high standards of hygiene and lashings of common sense if you are ill and need to stay at home.

For many people the only person that knows about their condition is their GP or practice. Asda don't need to know this and shouldn't expect to be given it.
 

bramling

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This is what I don't get. I think it's because of people not supporting the idea of masks. Nobody complains that you have to register and prove entitlement to a Blue Badge - by that registration you get entitled to something of benefit, and are protected in law from others causing you a problem by misusing the entitlement.

It comes across to me as "I'm disabled but I'm not going to tell you what my disability is so you have to work it out for yourself. I want you to stop those kids over there abusing the facilities for me, but I won't help you do so".

I really, really struggle to understand this view. Why not just get a sunflower lanyard?

I really object to the idea of people having to go round with a lanyard. Many people are very reserved about any medical issues they may have, and shouldn’t have to be singled out just to enter a supermarket - especially for a measure which seems to be as much use as a chocolate teapot.

I wonder if the fact that staff now have to wear them may well cause more problems for those with exemptions going forward, as it’s quite clear some of the mask issues are not just coming from the “you’re a granny killer” types, but also from the “I’m not that fussed about masks but it’s not fair I’m wearing one and he isn’t” types.

Never underestimate the influence of “it’s not fair that...”. In my work it’s the biggest cause of problems.
 

Bletchleyite

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I really object to the idea of people having to go round with a lanyard. Many people are very reserved about any medical issues they may have, and shouldn’t have to be singled out just to enter a supermarket

But they are already singling themselves out by not wearing a mask. Adding something that states that there is a reason for this makes their life easier and makes the staff's life easier. What's not to like?

I wonder if there is an undertone here in some along the lines of "I want an exemption because I don't like masks/find them uncomfortable but wouldn't get one by the rules, so I will claim I have one, so don't want to prove it"?
 

Meerkat

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I really object to the idea of people having to go round with a lanyard. Many people are very reserved about any medical issues they may have, and shouldn’t have to be singled out just to enter a supermarket - especially for a measure which seems to be as much use as a chocolate teapot.

I wonder if the fact that staff now have to wear them may well cause more problems for those with exemptions going forward, as it’s quite clear some of the mask issues are not just coming from the “you’re a granny killer” types, but also from the “I’m not that fussed about masks but it’s not fair I’m wearing one and he isn’t” types.

Never underestimate the influence of “it’s not fair that...”. In my work it’s the biggest cause of problems.
Maybe it’s the fact it isn’t fair that is the cause of the problems.
”I expect special treatment except when I don’t fancy it”
I thought the whole point of sunflower lanyards was that they didn’t specify the condition?
i would also point out that in a ‘broken window = crime’ type theory if there are unexplained unmasked people on a train it is more likely others will just stop wearing them.
 

Bantamzen

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But they are already singling themselves out by not wearing a mask. Adding something that states that there is a reason for this makes their life easier and makes the staff's life easier. What's not to like?

I wonder if there is an undertone here in some along the lines of "I want an exemption because I don't like masks/find them uncomfortable but wouldn't get one by the rules, so I will claim I have one, so don't want to prove it"?
Maybe it’s the fact it isn’t fair that is the cause of the problems.
”I expect special treatment except when I don’t fancy it”
I thought the whole point of sunflower lanyards was that they didn’t specify the condition?
i would also point out that in a ‘broken window = crime’ type theory if there are unexplained unmasked people on a train it is more likely others will just stop wearing them.

Has the legislation changed this week to require those exempt? If so do you have links?
 

Bletchleyite

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Has the legislation changed this week to require those exempt? If so do you have links?

No, it hasn't. However, as has been repeatedly pointed out, there is no reason a private business cannot act in excess of this legislation provided it wouldn't fail discrimination legislation on protected characteristics.
 

bramling

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But they are already singling themselves out by not wearing a mask. Adding something that states that there is a reason for this makes their life easier and makes the staff's life easier. What's not to like?

I wonder if there is an undertone here in some along the lines of "I want an exemption because I don't like masks/find them uncomfortable but wouldn't get one by the rules, so I will claim I have one, so don't want to prove it"?

I disagree that they’re singling themselves out. The concept of masks singles them out, as hitherto there would have been no issue. It is absolutely not normal to wear a nappy round the face when entering a supermarket.

People shouldn’t be needing to prove their medical issues to anyone. I’m struggling to think of many everyday situations where people need to do that. Guide dogs perhaps. Disabled parking bays aren’t as this doesn’t deny people from an everyday activity.

In the case of masks some of the exemptions may well be quite sensitive - for example mental health reasons.

I wouldn’t mind so much if masks were a real silver bullet, but they’re clearly not. In fact there remains the possibility they’re actually “outside medical settings a really bad idea”, as Jenny Harries said. Here in Wales where mask compliance is pretty much 100% there doesn’t seem to be any reduction in infections compared to places like London where compliance is much lower.
 

Bletchleyite

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I disagree that they’re singling themselves out. The concept of masks singles them out, as hitherto there would have been no issue. It is absolutely not normal to wear a nappy round the face when entering a supermarket.

But that's a different argument, and is precisely the point I was making - this is really all about refuseniks using an exemption as a means of not complying because they don't agree with masks.
 

talldave

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Logically, there would be expected to be a noticeable change in the tragectory of the line on the cases graph when masks were introduced, if they made a difference. So far as I am aware, this has not been observed in any case.
Well, ermmm, cases started to go up??
 

bramling

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Maybe it’s the fact it isn’t fair that is the cause of the problems.
”I expect special treatment except when I don’t fancy it”
I thought the whole point of sunflower lanyards was that they didn’t specify the condition?
i would also point out that in a ‘broken window = crime’ type theory if there are unexplained unmasked people on a train it is more likely others will just stop wearing them.

You’re definitely right on the latter point. I’ve seen a lot of people get on a train wearing a mask, then after gently looking round seeing others not wearing them they take theirs off.

We had it in a castle last week. An elderly couple asked why we weren’t wearing masks and we explained that they weren’t required in the open-air parts (which had been explained at the ticket office). They then replied with something along the lines of thank goodness for that we’re sick of masks but you have to be really careful what you say to people”. They then both ripped theirs off and thanked us.
 

Bletchleyite

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They can't request personal information such as medical conditions surely?

I think they potentially could. One of the GDPR bases for collecting medical information is "vital interest", which is that it is required to protect the life or health of a person for whom they have a duty of care.

If we take it that masks do provide protection (the fact that the Government thinks so is the only thing of relevance here, not others' opinions), then that clearly does apply.

However I was thinking more of arrangements like "if you are exempt, you must go to the customer service desk on entering the store and state your exemption, and we will give you a lanyard", which I've seen and I support, because most casual refuseniks, and most of them are casual, are not brazen enough to do that, therefore more people in the store will wear masks, therefore, on the basis of the Government's view (and nobody else's is relevant in this context) everyone, including the exempt people, in the store is safer.

Another one is "if you can't wear a mask please wait outside and we will serve you from there".

You have to consider it on the basis that masks do provide protection, whether you happen to agree or not, because that is the whole basis of the legislation. It then all makes sense, because the risk assessment outcomes follow from it.

If you don't like any of this because you feel masks are ineffective or negative, the whole line of argument fails. The fact is the Government believe they are effective, and everything else has to follow on from that.
 

DB

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What's wrong? They want information about a customers condition?

I'd like to see everyone comply that is required to do so, my view on this has gone up ten fold since my dad was diagnosed. What I don't agree with is someone effectively wanting to see what is wrong with you.

The guidance currently makes it clear that this should not be requested: https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...ngs-when-to-wear-one-and-how-to-make-your-own

Those who have an age, health or disability reason for not wearing a face covering should not be routinely asked to give any written evidence of this, this includes exemption cards. No person needs to seek advice or request a letter from a medical professional about their reason for not wearing a face covering.

So far as I'm aware there was nothing in any of the announcements yesterday suggesting that there would be any change to this?
 

bramling

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But that's a different argument, and is precisely the point I was making - this is really all about refuseniks using an exemption as a means of not complying because they don't agree with masks.

I don’t think it is. Without reading back, I get the impression *most* of the posts here are along the lines of “I do have a genuine exemption and the whole thing makes me uncomfortable entering a shop”.

Personally it *does* genuinely concern me that the whole thing is unhygienic, especially when we’re none the wiser about just how much this can transmit via surfaces / touch points. I spent most of the first half of the year being strict with myself to avoid touching my face (which is not an easy behaviour to change), and I feel masks put this straight back to square one. I am more than happy to maintain a 2 metre distance from others, I don’t really like people brushing round me anyway, so what purpose is a mask in a supermarket actually serving, apart from introducing a new route for germs to reach my face?
 

DB

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I think they potentially could. One of the GDPR bases for collecting medical information is "vital interest", which is that it is required to protect the life or health of a person for whom they have a duty of care.

Given that the government guidance specifically states that people should not be asked to provide proof of exemption, and that many exemptions will be on the basis of a protected charateristic, they would be on very dodgy ground if they tried this.
 

Bletchleyite

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I don’t think it is. Without reading back, I get the impression *most* of the posts here are along the lines of “I do have a genuine exemption and the whole thing makes me uncomfortable entering a shop”.

But what I don't get is why.

I would be uncomfortable with entering a shop without a mask on with no other provision, because I'd feel I was being eyed up by everyone and would be muttered/tutted about and maybe confronted.

If, however, there was a clear process to enter - go to the customer service desk, obtain a lanyard by stating I am exempt, and that there's prominent signage in the store stating that those who are exempt will be wearing such lanyards, and being able to wave it at anyone who says anything - I would feel much more comfortable, because I have proof I am in the right by way of a store issued lanyard and can be told "that's the store's rules, if you dislike it shop elsewhere".

I wouldn't even be uncomfortable saying "I am exempt because I have asthma" and flashing an inhaler or prescription copy at them. Almost none of the exemptions are in any way embarrassing. I'm not embarrassed about having asthma, it's just a fact that I do. The mental health related exemptions are more difficult, but as long as "for mental health reasons" was accepted that's fine by me.
 

Bantamzen

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I think they potentially could. One of the GDPR bases for collecting medical information is "vital interest", which is that it is required to protect the life or health of a person for whom they have a duty of care.

If we take it that masks do provide protection (the fact that the Government thinks so is the only thing of relevance here, not others' opinions), then that clearly does apply.

However I was thinking more of arrangements like "if you are exempt, you must go to the customer service desk on entering the store and state your exemption, and we will give you a lanyard", which I've seen and I support, because most casual refuseniks, and most of them are casual, are not brazen enough to do that, therefore more people in the store will wear masks, therefore, on the basis of the Government's view (and nobody else's is relevant in this context) everyone, including the exempt people, in the store is safer.

Another one is "if you can't wear a mask please wait outside and we will serve you from there".

You have to consider it on the basis that masks do provide protection, whether you happen to agree or not, because that is the whole basis of the legislation. It then all makes sense, because the risk assessment outcomes follow from it.

The government position is quite clear, people that are exempt do not have to give details as to why they may be exempt. It doesn't matter what the government thinks they might do, their position is quite clear, people do not have to explain the nature of their exemption. I thought you were all about following the rules?

I would suggest to anyone being challenged to make a formal complaint to the company (ensuring you get the details of the people making the demands so that they know a complaint is going in).
 
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