Unadvertised stop - can passengers get on / off the train?

[zwk500]

Which Guard? GN and TL all run DOO so it was probably the Driver who made the announcement or Platform staff at Kings Cross!

It won't have been platform staff a few minutes out from Baldock, unless they'd got rather lost!

 

[Bikeman78]

I similarly had a "non-stop" London King's Cross - Cambridge train in 2020 make an originally unscheduled stop somewhere like Baldock (I forget exactly where) due to a previous cancellation. On that occasion the guard made an announcement a few minutes beforehand about that additional stop.

The 1915 Cambridge-King's Cross once stopped briefly at Letchworth to let a driver off. No chance of passengers trying to get on or off as it stopped at the Cambridge end of the station with the driver's door only just by the platform.

 

[dk1]

The 1915 Cambridge-King's Cross once stopped briefly at Letchworth to let a driver off. No chance of passengers trying to get on or off as it stopped at the Cambridge end of the station with the driver's door only just by the platform.

Yes that’s how we do things as traincrew. I used to regularly get picked up at Ilford on a down Norwich Intercity after taking stuff to the car sheds for tyre turning at the London end ramp. No issues then with dispatch.

 

[baz962]

There are a few night trains stopping at Cricklewood "for staffing reasons" in the timetable, which are not advertised calls. In practice, given that these trains are driver only operated, is it possible for a passenger to get on / off these trains at Cricklewood?

I travel on Thameslink to st pancras quite regularly in the early hours. I have been on a few that are not booked to call at Cricklewood but do so to drop off or pick up drivers. Some drivers release the doors and let passengers off and others don't.

 

[dk1]

I travel on Thameslink to st pancras quite regularly in the early hours. I have been on a few that are not booked to call at Cricklewood but do so to drop off or pick up drivers. Some drivers release the doors and let passengers off and others don't.

It seems that some of the more established drivers if stopping are quite happy to use their own initiative to release the doors. Those newer examples seem scared of their own shadows most of the time & never dare do such things or are obsessed with reporting themselves if they do.

 

[John Webb]

On several occasions at St Albans City Station, when there have been problems delaying trains, the non-stop EMR trains have sometimes chosen to wait on the Down Fast at the Banner Repeater at the south end of the platform rather than in the platform itself, presumeably to avoid confusion to passengers both on the train and on the platform.

 

[43066]

On several occasions at St Albans City Station, when there have been problems delaying trains, the non-stop EMR trains have sometimes chosen to wait on the Down Fast at the Banner Repeater at the south end of the platform rather than in the platform itself, presumeably to avoid confusion to passengers both on the train and on the platform.

It’s more to prevent a safety issue as there’s no method of dispatch in these circumstances and St Albans has a curved and narrow platform, so looking back from the cab isn’t an option. It also reduces the (admittedly low in the case of northbound EMR trains at St Albans) risk of anyone on the train being tempted to pull an egress.

 

[greatkingrat]

The 1915 Cambridge-King's Cross once stopped briefly at Letchworth to let a driver off. No chance of passengers trying to get on or off as it stopped at the Cambridge end of the station with the driver's door only just by the platform.

I was once on a train that was supposed to be first stop New Southgate but stopped and released the doors at Hornsey (presumably to pick up or drop off someone from the depot?). Unfortunately a couple of people got on assuming it was the following train to Hertford North and weren't very happy to end up in New Southgate!

 

[BoroAndy]

So what would happen if a passenger alighted from a train at an unscheduled stop and the station had ticket controlled exit barriers? Also, why do these even exist, or is it to close any possible route for ticket dodgers to get in?

 

[Watershed]

So what would happen if a passenger alighted from a train at an unscheduled stop and the station had ticket controlled exit barriers? Also, why do these even exist, or is it to close any possible route for ticket dodgers to get in?

It's not illegal to get off at an unscheduled stop, if the doors are released. They would be treated exactly the same as if they had taken a train where it was an advertised stop. I would have thought that it is obvious why many busier stations have barriers - to stop people from travelling without a ticket?

 

[urbophile]

A friend who lives near Haywards Heath was returning from London one evening during heavy snowfall. Because of this it had been announced that the train would run non-stop to Brighton. However it did in fact stop at Haywards Heath but the doors were not released. My friend not only had the frustrating sight of her car in the station car park but also had to continue (very much delayed) to Brighton. I can't remember how she got home but it obviously involved either an even more delayed train or a taxi. Probably there were good operational and/or health and safety reasons for this but it remains a dismal story.

 

[MotCO]

It seems that some of the more established drivers if stopping are quite happy to use their own initiative to release the doors. Those newer examples seem scared of their own shadows most of the time & never dare do such things or are obsessed with reporting themselves if they do.

Is an unauthorised stop at a station, and releasing the doors, a disciplinary offence?

 

[dk1]

Is an unauthorised stop at a station, and releasing the doors, a disciplinary offence?

It can lead to being put on a plan of sorts rather than disciplinary action but that's if it's something a driver does repeatedly. I was talking more about in a situation where common sense is needed.

 

[Ashley Hill]

Is there a liability issue here? Say a passenger is travelling on a train from A to C and the train is not booked to stop at B.The trains makes an unauthorised stop at B where for whatever reason the doors are released. The passenger decides to alight at B instead steps off the train and injures their ankle after misjudging the step down. The train leaves and the passenger is left in pain at the station. They later complain and claim damages. If the train hadn’t stopped at B the accident would not have happened. So who’s at fault?

 

[Watershed]

Is there a liability issue here? Say a passenger is travelling on a train from A to C and the train is not booked to stop at B.The trains makes an unauthorised stop at B where for whatever reason the doors are released. The passenger decides to alight at B instead steps off the train and injures their ankle after misjudging the step down. The train leaves and the passenger is left in pain at the station. They later complain and claim damages. If the train hadn’t stopped at B the accident would not have happened. So who’s at fault?

The train operator or the station facilities manager, if negligence can be made out in either case. They fact that a train has stopped on an "unplanned" basis is neither here nor there really; if the doors are released, it has to be safe for passengers to get off.

 

[357]

It seems that some of the more established drivers if stopping are quite happy to use their own initiative to release the doors. Those newer examples seem scared of their own shadows most of the time & never dare do such things or are obsessed with reporting themselves if they do.

Yep.

Personally I feel it is a result of bad drivers being put into management or training positions to "get them out the seat", and the resulting impression they give new drivers.

Of course, not all management or trainers are in the position because of this, but in my experience well over half are.

 

[Taunton]

Of course, it wasn't that many years back that you could do nothing about it if the train stopped at a platform, for a signal, staff pickup, whatever. Commonly used to approach very slowly hoping the signal would come off.

The reason is apparent. On the Underground Central Line at midday a works train was inserted across London. Battery loco, wagons, man-riding car, etc. It approached I think Bond Street very slowly, being right up behind the train ahead, but despite the indicator, and multiple PA announcements, as it ran slowly past people on the platform started moving towards it.

 

[Mojo]

On TL night work we have staff stops at selhurst or Norwood. We do release the doors but if coming from blackfriars you always get a lot of time so you end up crawling along as you don't want to be sitting there a long time with doors open as obviously its not advertised.
Some people announce the staff stop but I've had plenty of people get off there, nowt you can do tbh.
Always 1 that thinks its east croydon then realises and jumps back on lol. Same happens at cricklewood if you have a staff stop. The doors are always released but for as minimal time as possible.

I was on a late (after 1am) train on a Sunday night a few weeks ago from Gatwick Airport to London Bridge. Online live departures and also the boards at the station implied the train was scheduled to stop at Norwood Jct but it was shown on both as cancelled “due to non availability of station staff” (presumably dispatch staff?)

Prior to departure from East Croydon the driver announced the stop was cancelled but we would still stop there for staff use only, and that any customers should not alight as the station would be locked and they wouldn’t be able to exit.

 

[Birmingham]

injures their ankle after misjudging the step down

Is there any difference between this happening off an unadvertised call to an advertised call?

 

[Ashley Hill]

Is there any difference between this happening off an unadvertised call to an advertised call?

Passenger accidents are taken very seriously and blame must be apportioned.If the stop was unauthorised why were the doors released and why did the train stop?Were they released by mistake,was the platform in good condition,was the passenger warned not to alight or was there a fault?Four different departments to play pass the blame with during the investigation!

 

[adc82140]

Back on the slammer days, the fast trains in to Waterloo were often held at red signals at Vauxhall. Some drivers would stop short of the platform, others would draw up to the signal, so would be in the platform. Many people would get off to make for the Victoria Line. Then guard would inevitably shout "oi" but in reality there was little they could do, apart from dispatch the train safely as if it had been an advertised stop.

 

[Capvermell]

Current last train of the night from London Victoria to Horsham on weekdays at 2325 is designated as Set Down Only at Holmwood, Ockley and Warnham and has been since that train on its own ran in passenger service south of Dorking (instead of a only as a stock movement) from 2003 onwards (although as the 2326 until 2018) but its only Set Down Only to save them the bother of running a rail replacement bus as far as Horsham if there is no left on the bus at Dorking or waiting to board it at Dorking (depending where the RRB starts from). The train only shows on the departures screen at Ockley southbound as Set Down Only (or similar) without the final destination of Horsham or next station of Warnham being shown but in practice I can't see the OBS managing to stop anyone waiting for the train getting on it but there just never are any passengers waiting to board the final train (I and a number of other passengers not infrequently get off it, especially on a Friday night) of the night southbound, although I suppose occasionally there could be if someone in Horsham had a friend in Capel or Ockley but as no one in Capel or Ockley goes to school or college in Horsham that tends to rule it out. But if there was a passenger I'm sure they could get on the train with no problem. Strangely there are some OBS's (the vast minority) who insist on walking down that train after Dorking after passengers are getting off but I never understand wha as the doors still open at all three stations anyway and most of their fellow OBS's don't do it. I always object when they do by pointing out that the train stops and the doors open at Holmwood, Ockley and Warnham stations anyway.

Also early hours of the morning Thameslink trains from St Pancras, Blackfriars etc very frequently make a staff/crew only stop at Selhurst but the doors always seem to be released so I don't see how they can stop anyone getting off unless the station itself was gated and locked against passenger exit (which I imagine it probably won't be). However the driver always makes an announcement that it is a crew only stop. But if its only to change the driver then they could just decide not to open the passenger doors...........

 

[317 forever]

Which Guard? GN and TL all run DOO so it was probably the Driver who made the announcement or Platform staff at Kings Cross!

The Norwood Jnc stops are a bit strange, for crewing purposes they usually only put them on specific trains but as said above they were indeed on the Brighton to London Bridge services yesterday!

In that case, it was the driver. That stop was only announced a few minutes before we arrived.

 

[Dr_Paul]

On the Underground Central Line at midday a works train was inserted across London. Battery loco, wagons, man-riding car, etc. It approached I think Bond Street very slowly, being right up behind the train ahead, but despite the indicator, and multiple PA announcements, as it ran slowly past people on the platform started moving towards it.

That would be interesting, travelling along the Central Line in an open goods wagon. However, I can easily see why it would not be encouraged; indeed, why it would not be allowed.

Back on the slammer days, the fast trains in to Waterloo were often held at red signals at Vauxhall. Some drivers would stop short of the platform, others would draw up to the signal, so would be in the platform. Many people would get off to make for the Victoria Line. Then guard would inevitably shout "oi" but in reality there was little they could do, apart from dispatch the train safely as if it had been an advertised stop.

I remember those days. I was commuting up to Central London back then, working in Millbank, and Vauxhall was more handy than Waterloo (a bit closer to my workplace and a few minutes less travelling time). If I caught an up Shepperton service back then, it wasn't scheduled to stop at Earlsfield and Vauxhall, but often did at the latter at the signal. If it did stop, there would be quite a number of people who alighted, presumably for the same reason that I did. I remember how drivers on non-stopping services would crawl up to the signal, hoping that the signal would be 'off' before they had to stop.

 

[30907]

Current last train of the night from London Victoria to Horsham on weekdays at 2325 is designated as Set Down Only at Holmwood, Ockley and Warnham and has been since that train on its own ran in passenger service south of Dorking (instead of a only as a stock movement) from 2003 onwards (although as the 2326 until 2018) but its only Set Down Only to save them the bother of running a rail replacement bus as far as Horsham if there is no left on the bus at Dorking or waiting to board it at Dorking (depending where the RRB starts from).

It also means not having to divert off the main road to serve H O or W if there are no set-down passengers on the off-chance that someone might want to board.
Not so important on this route, but at Grantham or Newark for the 2333 Kings Cross-Leeds it might be a long taxi ride.

 

[Taunton]

Back on the slammer days, the fast trains in to Waterloo were often held at red signals at Vauxhall.

Likewise a point for this was Saltash on the Up line, where trains for the Royal Albert bridge single line would draw slowly up to the Advance Starter at the end of the platform. The bridge was run with tokenless block, so there was no need to collect a token, but an Up train had to be ready to go the moment a Down train cleared, and points and signals were set. This caused the train to stop at the platform, and worse it's on a sharp right hand curve so the guard at the back is out of sight of the driver at the front, and indeed the intervening coach doors. There has long been a significant local traffic from Saltash to Plymouth. Sometimes the porter (back in the days when it was staffed) would close the gate to the platform, but if the local was coming right behind an express, those for it would be on the platform and just board the first train.

 

[Capvermell]

It also means not having to divert off the main road to serve H O or W if there are no set-down passengers on the off-chance that someone might want to board.
Not so important on this route, but at Grantham or Newark for the 2333 Kings Cross-Leeds it might be a long taxi ride.

I don't think not having to divert off the A24 to get to the stations is the actual motivation as the RRB (which they always choose to lay on rather than paying for taxis at Dorking) for reasons best known to Southern actually gets to Ockley Station by travelling in to Ockley Village on the windy A29 single carriageway and then taking Coles Land (B2126) to the station, even though it would be both quicker and shorter (by at least half a mile) to take the A24 dual carriageway to the Clarkes Green Roundabout and then double back 0.3 of a mile to Coles Lane and Ockley station. At Holmwood the diversion to go past the station is just the old single carriageway A24 that runs close to the current dual carriageway and involves no significant extra time or distance whilst at Warnham the bus only drops passengers off on the A24 itself at the turning on to the narrow rural road to the station both due to the difficulties of turning a bus round at the dead end where the foot crossing over the railway is and due to the fact that any passengers on the train on foot are likely to walk the other way off the A24 towards Warnham village.

So the actual motivation for the RRB designation on the last train appears to be to avoid having to run the bus all the way down to Horsham if there are no passengers beyond Holmwood or Ockley (which I only found to actually be the case during the lockdown back in January and February) as the bus is often provided by a TfL Depot at somewhere like Croydon. But on the 7 or 8 times I have got the RRB in the last year there has been one or more passengers going all the way down to Horsham far more often than not.

 

[SeanG]

On a related note, I was intending to travel to Dawlish the other week to walk up and down the sea wall. I was on a 150 and it pulled into the loop at Dawlish Warren to allow a fast train to pass. My train was not scheduled to stop at Dawlish and so initially the guard did not release the doors, but when passengers on the platform started to approach the train and press the door button, the doors were released. I did wonder if this was down to a safety aspect - ie it would be better to just let passengers on even if not scheduled to call, rather than have them trying to get on when they can't.