Unadvertised through services - what would the railway typically do?

[nw1]

There's been a recent thread on unadvertised through services but I'm wondering what the railway would typically do in such a situation.

For example, it might be that most hours, services from A to B, where B is a major city, might then work B to C - and reverse, so C to B then works B to A. However, in say one hour of the day, around mid afternoon, this does not happen, for operational reasons. For example, the type of stock operating that diagram is needed on the route from B to D at that time for a heavily loaded school journey, so has to switch to route B-D having worked in from A. Or, let's say the A-B and B-C routes might feature 158s most of the day, but one diagram might have to switch to a 150 mid-afternoon as the 158 is needed to strengthen a long-distance service.

Would a typical TOC advertise it as a through service, even though there is an hour "gap"? Would they consider the gap as an inconsistency big enough to prevent it being advertised as a though service, or, would they advertise it as a through service with an exception applying for that hour?

 

[D6975]

There used to be a Newcastle-Carlisle-Glasgow that was advertised as a through service, but was changed to appear as two separate services without the actual operation changing. In Scotland, Fife circle services changed from being through Edinburgh-Edinburghs to being out and back to Glenrothes via different routes, so no actual operational change again.

 

[LowLevel]

EMR have various Peterborough - Lincoln services which carry on to Leicester/Nottingham. The departure screens even advise that as a subheading. Frustratingly though because they're not planned as a through service and don't meet the minimum connection time at Lincoln they don't come up as a possible through journey even with a change, it relies on you knowing about it.

 

[Some guy]

Colne- Blackpool south

 

[AndrewE]

The other side of the coin is that the previous operator on the N Wales coast had a nasty habit (for passengers) of taking a supposedly through train to somewhere S of Chester out of service there and making everyone detrain and board another unit.
We had a horrendously overcrowded journey from Holyhead with no reservations showing, including repeated confrontations as people tried to claim their seats, only to be all tipped out at Chester where another unit was waiting at another platform to form the "service" forward.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

Where there are odd instances of two services that could, on paper, be combined in to one through service, any such move that may seem a good idea by some (eg: commercial side) to combine same, has to be thought about very carefully. Once a decision to combine same is taken and the DfT are on board to the idea, any subsequent wish (by the TOC) to split back in to two distinct services again at a later timetable change, due (perhaps) to a change in underlying operating circumstances (revised stock or crew issues), could prove nigh on impossible, which could as a result incur far greater implications to the overall plan elsewhere.
In my old domain there was at one time a suggestion made by (non planners) that many late night ECS trains could be converted to passenger services. In theory, quite laudable some may say, but to do so would have huge implications for future planning, in the way of not only alternative transport provision (eng works wise) but also a severe impact would be had on NR's various patrolling possessions. All the time any such possessions only impact ECS trains to/from depot(s), these trains can be easily (relatively) revised as and when needed, but as soon as those trains become permanent passenger trains, the overall costs and implications involved can easily out-way any benefit.

 

[Bald Rick]

Colne- Blackpool south

not any more

its Ormskirk to Blackpool South.

 

[thenorthern]

In the evenings one of the Crewe to Derby trains then went onto Nottingham as the unit was exchanged for a Class 158 that had run from Nottingham to Derby. I had been on both services a couple of times and the guard would normally say "Just stay on the train as it will be going to where you want".

 

[Parallel]

The 15:47 from Pwllheli arrives at Machynlleth at 17:55 before forming the 18:01 non-stop service to Aberystwyth. When I used these services before, the guard advised staying on board if going to Aberystwyth, but it wasn't advertised as a through service.

 

[yorkie]

Colne- Blackpool south

Do you have examples of particular services? The Colne to Preston trains I looked at mostly become Ormskirk services.
Edit: I see someone else beat me to it!

A good example would be 0545 Hull to York (due in at 0659 but today arrived early at 0654) which goes onto form 0707 York to Leeds via the Harrogate Loop.

It is a valid connection, but only just! I don't know if it's the same crew or not, but if not, I'd expect the new crew to be at the train in time to avoid the unit being locked out of use between turns, so in theory through passengers can remain seated. I doubt there are many though, but it's possible there may be some (say) Selby to Knaresborough, or Sherburn to Harrogate, passengers making that journey.

 

[Watershed]

I don't know if it's the same crew or not, but if not, I'd expect the new crew to be at the train in time to avoid the unit being locked out of use between turns, so in theory through passengers can remain seated.

It's not the same crew (Hull don't have knowledge beyond York). Northern tend not to lock up their units between services unless it's a very long turnaround.

 

[yorkie]

It's not the same crew (Hull don't have knowledge beyond York). Northern tend not to lock up their units between services unless it's a very long turnaround.

Or is a Blackpool to York service (there may be others!)

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

It's not the same crew (Hull don't have knowledge beyond York). Northern tend not to lock up their units between services unless it's a very long turnaround.

Interesting you should say that, because I think Northern are the worst for doing that by far, and that's with extensive experience of travelling on all current TOCs.

 

[M-Train]

To what extent can the Sutton Loop be considered a nominally non-through service? It does not show as a circular service on RTT, though it is presented to passengers as such.

 

[Alex365Dash]

To what extent can the Sutton Loop be considered a nominally non-through service? It does not show as a circular service on RTT, though it is presented to passengers as such.

To facilitate showing this as a through connection on journey planners between the circular split service, the minimum connection time at Sutton between two Thameslink services is one minute.

Whilst the journey planner would ask you to change trains onto the Thameslink service onwards from the same platform, said Thameslink service would be operated by the same train you just alighted.

 

[Some guy]

Weirdly today the 08:12 Liverpool to Glasgow terminated at Preston and turned into the 09:03 to Edinburgh as the same set so it’s basically done a Liverpool to Edinburgh service

 

[M-Train]

To facilitate showing this as a through connection on journey planners between the circular split service, the minimum connection time at Sutton between two Thameslink services is one minute.

Whilst the journey planner would ask you to change trains onto the Thameslink service onwards from the same platform, said Thameslink service would be operated by the same train you just alighted.

What I mean is that the TfL maps show an unbroken loop instead of the interchange blob that one sees on the Overground at CLJ.

 

[nw1]

Where there are odd instances of two services that could, on paper, be combined in to one through service, any such move that may seem a good idea by some (eg: commercial side) to combine same, has to be thought about very carefully. Once a decision to combine same is taken and the DfT are on board to the idea, any subsequent wish (by the TOC) to split back in to two distinct services again at a later timetable change, due (perhaps) to a change in underlying operating circumstances (revised stock or crew issues), could prove nigh on impossible, which could as a result incur far greater implications to the overall plan elsewhere.

Thanks, interesting post. Basically what's in DFT's mind, I guess, is a case of "people will get used to the through service, and then when it's split, due to revised diagramming (for whatever reason), they will complain".

I've heard a similar explanation for the lack of Beaulieu Road stops in every hour, even though it could occur without causing pathing issues - if the TOC decide at some future date to only run two-hourly Poole stoppers, Beaulieu Road would then suffer a reduction from 1tph to 1tp2h, whereas if only alternate trains stop, then under that revised timetable, Beaulieu Road would suffer no such reduction.

Another reason, I guess, is the one I suggested: if you advertise it as a through service, but for operational reasons cannot run it as a through service every hour, it becomes a messier timetable. The TOC, however, might want a simpler public timetable, consistent in each off-peak hour.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

Historically, one such scenario that comes to mind involved the 0500 Pompey Harbour to Basingstoke. It was so long ago now, I can not claim to be accurate now in respect of the sequence of events (brain fog !). I believe it was about the time that the first 10 car 158/9 service was introduced in the morning peak to Waterloo. This in itself had a dis-proportionate impact on platform workings at Waterloo as I recall, also involving a change of (159) turnover working in the morning peak. At the time many changes being made were a result of the wider plans for increased capacity. As said I may have the order of events not quite right, so bare with me: the 0500 from Pompey was a 6-159 which was worked by a Fratton crew. Part of the thinking being so Fratton could retain diesel knowlegde. At Basingstoke this formed an additional 0642 to Waterloo, arriving at 074x something, then forming the 0820 departure. This was worked by same Fratton crew as far as Basingstoke, where they were relieved by a Salisbury crew.

As the wider capacity plans progressed, various ongoing changes to the overall plan included a change to the 159 diagrams for the 0500 Pompey, which on arrival at Basingstoke, subsequently went in to the sidings, to be split in to two 3 cars, and then work services Down the Salisbury line and a-another I can not now remember. This change I believe was partly (but not exclusively) driven by further platforming complications at Waterloo, whereby a further change of turnover formations required what had been the 0500 from Pompey/0642 Basingstoke, to run purely as a separate 0642 Basingstoke to Waterloo, formed 8-450.

I have no idea how the 0500 Pompey was publicly advertised through this period, but suspect it was only ever shown as a 'Basingstoke' service? What sometimes did not seem to make sense to a casual observer, was often an interim part of a much wider plan, stretched out over several timetable periods. The end result having been planned long before, but parts of the route to that end plan, may have been seen (at the time) to not make sense.

 

[David Goddard]

In most hours during the day the Norwich and Ipswich to Lowestoft services switch routes on departure from Lowestoft.
This is, as far as I understand, to cycle units round the system so that they return to Norwich every few hours in case of needing to be swapped.
In theory, this creates a through train from (say) Norwich to Beccles or Reedham (Norfolk) to Ipswich.
A Sunday diagram I was looking at also sees this cycle interwork onto the Cambridge service, so a unit may do Norwich-Lowestoft-Ipswich-Cambridge then back by the same route.

These type of interworked operations are probably much more widespread than we all think, particularly with diesel operations where daily diagrams have to get stock back to the appropriate place to take account of fuel etc- not as much an issue with EMUs.

Of course the other types of services which call into the scope of the title of this thread (and which I thought it was originally about) are the slow stopping trains or those that take a roundabout route, where later train will get you to the destination quicker. These are then advertised (either in timetables - remember them! - or more often on station departure boards), and also in station announcements, as going to a station short of the eventual destination.
Good example here is the Harrogate loop service, which is (or it was last time I was there) listed at Leeds as Poppleton, or at York as Burley Park, but as we all know continues to York or Leeds respectively.
In WAGN/FCC days, the slowest trains from Cambridge to London Kings Cross would feature on departure boards and in announcements as going to Finsbury Park on the Up or Foxton on the Down, this stopped end to end passengers boarding them by mistake when there was a non stop train ten minutes later which would overtake the stopper somewhere near Stevenage and get there some 25 minutes faster. When GWR operated stopping trains just to Reading these would often appear as Twyford in the same vein, but now these are in the hands of TfL they once again appear as Reading.

 

[Taunton]

In old times, of course, timetables did not show through trains as such, and it depended on (hopefully) being given instructions by staff, to the extent of heads being out of windows at intermediate points asking any passing porter, who were somehow expected to know. Things could change from day to day - whether two coaches of the London train were detached at Taunton to go to Minehead would vary, possibly at the behest of Butlins.

Various GWR/WR local services were run through, just for operating convenience. Didcot to Newbury, and Newbury to Southampton, was one such, the service after arrival at Newbury being drawn forward then backed into the departure bay. Likewise at Taunton the Yeovil to Taunton would continue. loco and all, as Taunton to Minehead or Barnstaple. In both cases this was to save shunting back across the main line, and turning the loco. Tended not to be many through passengers, but the few were told to stay put.

I also recall that the Derby to Nottingham local service would commonly be through routed, unadvertised, to Lincoln. This seemed strange because in classic dmu days it was normally run with the pioneer Eastern Region 50000 series 2-car units, borrowed by the London Midland for their internal service.

 

[bramling]

In most hours during the day the Norwich and Ipswich to Lowestoft services switch routes on departure from Lowestoft.
This is, as far as I understand, to cycle units round the system so that they return to Norwich every few hours in case of needing to be swapped.
In theory, this creates a through train from (say) Norwich to Beccles or Reedham (Norfolk) to Ipswich.
A Sunday diagram I was looking at also sees this cycle interwork onto the Cambridge service, so a unit may do Norwich-Lowestoft-Ipswich-Cambridge then back by the same route.

These type of interworked operations are probably much more widespread than we all think, particularly with diesel operations where daily diagrams have to get stock back to the appropriate place to take account of fuel etc- not as much an issue with EMUs.

Of course the other types of services which call into the scope of the title of this thread (and which I thought it was originally about) are the slow stopping trains or those that take a roundabout route, where later train will get you to the destination quicker. These are then advertised (either in timetables - remember them! - or more often on station departure boards), and also in station announcements, as going to a station short of the eventual destination.
Good example here is the Harrogate loop service, which is (or it was last time I was there) listed at Leeds as Poppleton, or at York as Burley Park, but as we all know continues to York or Leeds respectively.
In WAGN/FCC days, the slowest trains from Cambridge to London Kings Cross would feature on departure boards and in announcements as going to Finsbury Park on the Up or Foxton on the Down, this stopped end to end passengers boarding them by mistake when there was a non stop train ten minutes later which would overtake the stopper somewhere near Stevenage and get there some 25 minutes faster. When GWR operated stopping trains just to Reading these would often appear as Twyford in the same vein, but now these are in the hands of TfL they once again appear as Reading.

I got caught out at Lowestoft a few years ago. We’d got off to spend a couple of hours in Somerleyton, and given we were using boxes decided we might as well travel back to Norwich via Lowestoft rather than sitting for half an hour on the platform at Somerleyton. Should of course have checked RTTT, as - after a quick turnaround and no announcements - we found ourselves on the East Suffolk Line - and we ended up travelling home via Ipswich instead, which wasn’t a problem just not what we’d planned!

 

[Dren Ahmeti]

In old times, of course, timetables did not show through trains as such, and it depended on (hopefully) being given instructions by staff, to the extent of heads being out of windows at intermediate points asking any passing porter, who were somehow expected to know. Things could change from day to day - whether two coaches of the London train were detached at Taunton to go to Minehead would vary, possibly at the behest of Butlins.

Various GWR/WR local services were run through, just for operating convenience. Didcot to Newbury, and Newbury to Southampton, was one such, the service after arrival at Newbury being drawn forward then backed into the departure bay. Likewise at Taunton the Yeovil to Taunton would continue. loco and all, as Taunton to Minehead or Barnstaple. In both cases this was to save shunting back across the main line, and turning the loco. Tended not to be many through passengers, but the few were told to stay put.

I also recall that the Derby to Nottingham local service would commonly be through routed, unadvertised, to Lincoln. This seemed strange because in classic dmu days it was normally run with the pioneer Eastern Region 50000 series 2-car units, borrowed by the London Midland for their internal service.

A lot of GW services do interesting stuff once-daily.
You get Cardiff-Frome in the late evening, my personal favourite Severn Beach-Exeter St Davids/Taunton, and Bristol Temple Meads-Exmouth etc.

 

[Parallel]

A lot of GW services do interesting stuff once-daily.
You get Cardiff-Frome in the late evening, my personal favourite Severn Beach-Exeter St Davids/Taunton, and Bristol Temple Meads-Exmouth etc.

There is also an evening Exmouth - Cardiff Central now since the timetable change.

 

[JRT]

Colne- Blackpool south

The other way round!
(Most days?)
I've caught the train from Blackpool South (or intermediate station) and just before Preston the conductor sometimes announces that the train will be continuing to Colne.

.

Of course the other types of services which call into the scope of the title of this thread (and which I thought it was originally about) are the slow stopping trains or those that take a roundabout route, where later train will get you to the destination quicker. These are then advertised (either in timetables - remember them! - or more often on station departure boards), and also in station announcements, as going to a station short of the eventual destination.
Good example here is the Harrogate loop service, which is (or it was last time I was there) listed at Leeds as Poppleton, or at York as Burley Park, but as we all know continues to York or Leeds respectively.
In WAGN/FCC days, the slowest trains from Cambridge to London Kings Cross would feature on departure boards and in announcements as going to Finsbury Park on the Up or Foxton on the Down, this stopped end to end passengers boarding them by mistake when there was a non stop train ten minutes later which would overtake the stopper somewhere near Stevenage and get there some 25 minutes faster. When GWR operated stopping trains just to Reading these would often appear as Twyford in the same vein, but now these are in the hands of TfL they once again appear as Reading.

Yes the Leeds – York (via Harrogate) trains are indeed still advertised at Leeds as running to Poppleton only. The Leeds – York stopper (via Garforth) is rarely advertised as Micklefield only, but I have known it to be on York Races days, to encourage passengers to travel on the fast trains and so leave space for those joining at intermediate stops. On the day I travelled, half the train were travelling through to York for the races, so they knew where the train was going.

 

[BoroAndy]

It's not the same crew (Hull don't have knowledge beyond York). Northern tend not to lock up their units between services unless it's a very long turnaround.

And presumably it will sit those few minutes on a through platform, 5, 9, 10 or 11

 

[pne]

The 15:47 from Pwllheli arrives at Machynlleth at 17:55 before forming the 18:01 non-stop service to Aberystwyth.

Is that the one that then becomes a stopper heading back to Shrewsbury?

So that if you wanted to go to Borth or Bow Street from Pwllheli, the fastest connection would be to "take three different trains" while actually staying on the same one all along?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Is that the one that then becomes a stopper heading back to Shrewsbury?

So that if you wanted to go to Borth or Bow Street from Pwllheli, the fastest connection would be to "take three different trains" while actually staying on the same one all along?

Yes. The same unit then forms the 1831 departure from Aberystwyth, which is normally for Shrewsbury.

So essentially, the unit from Pwllheli proceeds in service to Machynlleth, then reverses/continues "fast" to Aberystwyth, then returns/continues (via Machynlleth) to Shrewsbury.

Because the smaller stations are skip-stopped on the run into Aberystwyth, quicker through journey times to say Bow Street, or Borth, from the Cambrian Coast stations up to and including Dovey Junction, will be had by travelling into Aberystwyth and partway back out again, all on the same unit.