'Under a 10 minute walk between stations' but not an OSI?

[purple-Azumas]

Have seen this talked about on here and elsewhere but haven't found a definitive answer.

>95% of the dotted 'Under a 10 minute walk between stations' connections between Tube and/or rail stations on the 'London's Rail & Tube service' map are Out of Station Interchanges (OSIs), and indeed there are plenty of OSIs that are not shown on the map (which for me is fine as if you know they exist, you can use them and you are not penalised financially for not knowing of their existence) but are valid connections within journeys.

What gets me are the couple of dotted connections that are shown but aren't OSIs (e.g. Manor House - Harringay Green Lanes, Caledonian Road - CR & Barnsbury, City TL - St Paul's, Swiss Cottage - South Hampstead and probably others I've missed). Having been caught out making one of these connections recently, I struggle to understand what the point of featuring them on the map is, and why they are shown if they only serve to penalise people who are willing to make a short walking connection rather than travelling into Zone 1 to change trains there. What's worse is that the symbol for these connections is made up of two (connected) 'Interchange stations' symbols so it seems at best misleading to me that these actually are not valid interchanges when most other instances of these symbols do represent valid interchanges.

Is there a reason why these specific connections are shown as 'Under a 10 minute walk between stations' when they are not set up as OSIs? The inconsistency is unbelievable, really, as on a Piccadilly line carriage map you've got walking connections for Manor House and Caledonian Road station to the Overground which aren't OSIs but a connection to the Central between Park Royal and Hanger Lane is valid as an OSI yet presented in the same way! It would be better if these connections were simply not shown, as safe to say I wouldn't have considered the route I took had the connection not been there.

Finally, besides complaining to TfL (which from my experience thus far is like talking to a wall), is there anything which can be done to either get these connections set up as an OSI or properly advertised as not a valid connection on PAYG. Would this fall in the remit of the Advertising Standards Authority if it can be argued the map is misleading, and if so is there anything they can reasonably do/force TfL to do about it?

Any thoughts most welcome.

 

[greyman42]

City Thameslink to St. Pauls seems strange not to be a OSI, especially as it is a straight forward walk along Newgate.

 

[JonathanH]

I would imagine it will be because TfL think that passengers are more likely to make the change at a more convenient point.

However, this is only going to get more frustrating as the use of Oyster and Contactless expand.

 

[Sunil_P]

Lancaster Gate to Paddington

 

[Farigiraf]

Reviving this thread to show one which I'm surprised hasn't been mentioned anywhere on the forums that I can find yet:

New Cross to Deptford Bridge & Deptford: 9 minutes from New Cross to both, both can be done with just a change at Lewisham or London Bridge but if you want to avoid central london/Zone 1, or the next train to Lewisham is not for a while, this walk could save some time. Definitely worth consideration for an OSI.
The former is just a walk along New Cross Road (the same as NCG to NC) so could be popular
Deptford Bridge to Deptford isn't an OSI either, as Greenwich is an easier change point, but Kilburn to Brondesbury is the same (albeit West Hampstead is still an OSI, it's much shorter) and was allowed.

Image shows Google maps with blue lines drawn between New Cross Gate, New Cross, Deptford Bridge and Deptford NR.

 

[Taunton]

Lancaster Gate to Paddington

I really find this one over-represented. If it can be done in less than 10 minutes that's only an Olympic runner. It requires quite a detailed knowledge of the turns left and right, and six separate signalled pedestrian crossings of major streets (and thus a lucky runner with the lights). I suspect it's measured to the Underground Praed Street entrance, not to the main line station concourse.

 

[stuu]

I really find this one over-represented. If it can be done in less than 10 minutes that's only an Olympic runner. It requires quite a detailed knowledge of the turns left and right, and six separate signalled pedestrian crossings of major streets (and thus a lucky runner with the lights). I suspect it's measured to the Underground Praed Street entrance, not to the main line station concourse.

I used to go that way every morning. The route was very busy with people making that journey, because of the utter tedium/unreliability of the SSL. 10 minutes platform to platform if you know where you are going and don't hang about.

The Elizabeth line will have cut most if not all of those journeys out though

 

[D6975]

I really find this one over-represented. If it can be done in less than 10 minutes that's only an Olympic runner. It requires quite a detailed knowledge of the turns left and right, and six separate signalled pedestrian crossings of major streets (and thus a lucky runner with the lights). I suspect it's measured to the Underground Praed Street entrance, not to the main line station concourse.

I'm surprised you found this one difficult. I've done it (actually starting in the Italian gardens, Hyde Park) several times and 10 minutes is ample. The first time I did it I didn't know the way, only that it was due North and still it only took 10 mins.
Another walk that didn't used to be listed is Forest Gate - Wanstead Park which is dead easy, the stations are visible from each other, this has now been added.
The Fenchurch St/Tower gateway one doesn't extend to London Bridge and this one is particulary worth doing as it isn't very far and involves walking over Tower Bridge.

 

[AlbertBeale]

I'm surprised you found this one difficult. I've done it (actually starting in the Italian gardens, Hyde Park) several times and 10 minutes is ample. The first time I did it I didn't know the way, only that it was due North and still it only took 10 mins.
Another walk that didn't used to be listed is Forest Gate - Wanstead Park which is dead easy, the stations are visible from each other, this has now been added.
The Fenchurch St/Tower gateway one doesn't extend to London Bridge and this one is particulary worth doing as it isn't very far and involves walking over Tower Bridge.

I'd be a bit surprised if Fenchurch St station - London Bridge station reliably only took 10 minutes.

 

[Taunton]

I'm surprised you found this one difficult. I've done it (actually starting in the Italian gardens, Hyde Park) several times and 10 minutes is ample. The first time I did it I didn't know the way, only that it was due North and still it only took 10 mins.

Right!!! I'm rearranging my next weekend to chance to pass there. Stopwatch in hand .

 

[Fenchurch SP]

I'd be a bit surprised if Fenchurch St station - London Bridge station reliably only took 10 minutes.

I usually do it in about 15 walking fairly quickly. Would be a useful OSI for me, although at the time I usually do it the barriers are all open anyway so I just avoid touching in or out at both stations.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

I used to go that way every morning. The route was very busy with people making that journey, because of the utter tedium/unreliability of the SSL. 10 minutes platform to platform if you know where you are going and don't hang about.

It was already popular with workers near to Central Line stations fifty years ago. Without ever measuring it, I had the perception that the walk between platforms from Bakerloo to Central or vice versa at Oxford Circus was just as long as Paddington to Lancaster Gate. Also the run from Oxford Circus to Lancaster Gate seemed shorter and quicker than Oxford Circus to Paddington on the Bakerloo. That was before the days of extensive use of platform 14 at Paddington for the semi fast trains to Reading and beyond.

 

[JonathanH]

It was already popular with workers near to Central Line stations fifty years ago.

There was a time, prior to the mid 1980s when season tickets from British Rail locations to Central London were issued for specific underground routeing. Walking to Lancaster Gate from Paddington and using the Central Line was apparently cheaper than using the Bakerloo from Paddington and changing at Oxford Circus.

All told, staying on a Central Line train from the East until Lancaster Gate, and walking to Paddington is marginally quicker than changing at Oxford Circus for the Bakerloo Line to Paddington for someone able to move quickly.

 

[D6975]

I'd be a bit surprised if Fenchurch St station - London Bridge station reliably only took 10 minutes.

I didn't say that it did. I just pointed out that it's a walk worth doing as it takes about 15mins from Fenchurch St, I know that is over the 10 mins spec, but from Tower Hill tube to LBR it isn't that much over 10 mins. (and I've got a dodgy knee, so I'm not as fleet of foot as I once was)

ps Another London walk that I do that's over 10 mins is Liverpool St - Cannon St, over 10 mins but usually faster than the tube.

 

[AlbertBeale]

I didn't say that it did. I just pointed out that it's a walk worth doing as it takes about 15mins from Fenchurch St, I know that is over the 10 mins spec, but from Tower Hill tube to LBR it isn't that much over 10 mins. (and I've got a dodgy knee, so I'm not as fleet of foot as I once was)

ps Another London walk that I do that's over 10 mins is Liverpool St - Cannon St, over 10 mins but usually faster than the tube.

So are you saying that all these walkable links, even ones taking 15 minutes, should be recognised as OSIs? (The topic here was connections that ought to be OSIs.)

 

[PeterC]

So are you saying that all these walkable links, even ones taking 15 minutes, should be recognised as OSIs? (The topic here was connections that ought to be OSIs.)

I think that people are drifting off topic and just discussing walking links. I agree with the original premise that if it's shown as a walking link on the Tube map then it should be an OSI