Unite Network Rail Strikes Off

[Bletchleyite]

If I was Unite, I'd be a bit insulted that the largest trade union in the country was being dismissed by another union as miniscule.

It's certainly rather an affront to the idea of solidarity!

 

[Watershed]

But the ballot is anonymous, and nobody is put under any duress*, as is often implied on here. It’s an entirely free vote and people just need to start to accept the RMT’s members are not idiots making their own decisions, not blindly following whatever they’re being told to do by “union barons”, or being beaten up in the messroom if they don’t vote a certain way…

*Unlike the embarrassing scenes in Parliament of MPs being manhandled by the whips over the summer, speaking of the government!

Well it's like the polling station example. You're not under any duress and those with strong views won't change their minds. But those who are undecided are likely to be influenced.

Why did the RMT see fit to put the offer to their members if they were going to recommend rejecting it? And if they don't mind putting offers to their members that they don't think are worthy of acceptance, why didn't they do the same with the TOC offer? It just seems like they're going through the motions.

 

[12LDA28C]

If it's true that they want to sack half the staff, and half the staff voted to strike and the other half didn't, then why don't they just say "turn up to work tomorrow or you're sacked for unauthorised absence"?

Who is really pulling this guy's strings.

Seriously?

 

[Thirteen]

He was close to losing it in two interviews on the radio and did when questioned by Richard Madeley on GMB. He's been ok on the media before this but he really does need to dial back the rhetoric at the moment.

I wonder if Lynch and perhaps the RMT leadership were stung by Unite accepting the offer on the same day as they rejected the deal.

It's certainly rather an affront to the idea of solidarity!

Honestly had he said, 'It's not good enough for our members for x reason' then it would have been fine but the Government and certain parts of the media are going to latch onto those comments. He's given ammunition to both NR and the Government.

 

[yorksrob]

Based on the outright rejection of the NR deal by the RMT leadership, there's no evidence they would have accepted a similar deal for the TOCs if only DOO/DCO hadn't been mentioned. The DOO talk obviously doomed it to rejection regardless but there's no real indication that other than that a deal was all but done.

It does show the Government directly interfered with a negotiation it claims should be between the employers and the unions.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Honestly had he said, 'It's not good enough for our members for x reason' then it would have been fine but the Government and certain parts of the media are going to latch onto those comments. He's given ammunition to both NR and the Government.

I think he's in danger of the Government considering that he's actually engaging in illegal secondary action, i.e. that the dispute is mainly continuing in solidarity with the guards opposing DOO.

 

[66701GBRF]

If it's true that they want to sack half the staff, and half the staff voted to strike and the other half didn't, then why don't they just say "turn up to work tomorrow or you're sacked for unauthorised absence"?

Who is really pulling this guy's strings.

Come off it, is that a serious question? A strike is not unauthorised absence.

I hope you are not an employer. That kind of talk is why certain employe protections are in place.

 

[Thirteen]

I think he's in danger of the Government considering that he's actually engaging in illegal secondary action, i.e. that the dispute is mainly continuing in solidarity with the guards opposing DOO.

Surely NR would need proof that the RMT were engaging in secondary action because it'd be an expensive process to claim damages and sacking workers wouldn't be a good look either.

 

[Exscrew]

So come on people, predictions for what happens next with the NR dispute

 

[Parjon]

This wasn't an open vote - the RMT leadership advised members to vote against the deal. Imagine receiving a referendum ballot paper but being advised by the polling station staff to vote "no" to the question! It's not exactly what I'd expect of a party negotiating in good faith.

I don't disagree but we don't need to imagine. That's exactly how the UK exit from the EU referendum was run. I suppose it's the unions job to look after its members interests in the same way it's supposed to be the government's job to look after ours. Lol emoji. Rofl emoji etc.

 

[43066]

Well it's like the polling station example. You're not under any duress and those with strong views won't change their minds. But those who are undecided are likely to be influenced.

With respect, it’s really nothing like that at all. It’s like most aspects of democracy. Arguments are presented and people are free to vote how they wish in a completely anonymous ballot, in their own home (so less risk of duress even than a polling station!), which has to meet various onerous legal requirements. Why (at least tacitly) imply there are strong arm tactics being used?

Why did the RMT see fit to put the offer to their members if they were going to recommend rejecting it? And if they don't mind putting offers to their members that they don't think are worthy of acceptance, why didn't they do the same with the TOC offer? It just seems like they're going through the motions.

So they’re damned either way. If they put a deal to members you’ll criticise them for not urging them to accept it or remaining silent. If they don’t, you’ll criticise them for not putting the deal forward at all. Personally, if my union put a deal forward, I’d want an indication from them on their view or whether I should accept it not, to factor into my decision making.

As for not offering a vote on the TOC side, what on earth would be the point? Unless you’re seriously telling us you think guards are going to vote in favour of DOO?!

Do you or do you not agree this was a tactic by the government to scupper a deal?

 

[baz962]

But the ballot is anonymous, and nobody is put under any duress*, as is often implied on here. It’s an entirely free vote and people just need to start to accept the RMT’s members are not idiots making their own decisions, not blindly following whatever they’re being told to do by “union barons”, or being beaten up in the messroom if they don’t vote a certain way…

*Unlike the embarrassing scenes in Parliament of MPs being manhandled by the whips over the summer, speaking of the government!

I don't believe that they are truly anonymous. My ballot paper had some sort of serial number on the bottom.

 

[43066]

I don't disagree but we don't need to imagine. That's exactly how the UK exit from the EU referendum was run. I suppose it's the unions job to look after its members interests in the same way it's supposed to be the government's job to look after ours. Lol emoji. Rofl emoji etc.

But the government telling us to vote a certain way was ignored - just as RMT members were free to do.

 

[Parjon]

Come off it, is that a serious question? A strike is not unauthorised absence.

I hope you are not an employer. That kind of talk is why certain employe protections are in place.

If it's not unauthorised absence then why don't the staff get paid...! Of course it is! It's only a power balance that has to date prevented power being used to dramatically unilaterally end action.

Action against individual employees

In this section we discuss the circumstances when an employer can treat an individual as taking part in industrial action and then exam

www.local.gov.uk

But the government telling us to vote a certain way was ignored - just as RMT members were free to do.

And maybe the members might want to consider exercising their voting freedom a bit more too!!

 

[AM9]

But I did wonder at the motivation behind Husain's repeated question about the average amount of pay lost by RMT members during the strike. To the outsider it's of no relevance, and the RMT members affected will already know how much they have lost. So it was hardly a question at all, just a way of saying "Mick Lynch, RMT members should hate you for costing them money". I can understand why he found that annoying.

As per my bolded words; Are you speaking as an outsider, because I am an outsider myself* and see it as a relevant question and Lynch's refusal to answer it even more relevant. That comment is more indicative of your unease about the situation (if you see yourself as an 'insider') than my accepting that it is informative to an "outsider".
Remember, Lynch had a level of public support in the summer where his union members' claim was considered to be relevant and not unreasonable. His increasingly aggressive left wing rants have undermines that support, and that may have influenced the swing towards acceptance of the offer. That is of interest to taxpayers, farepaying passengers and those that rely on rail travel in their lives. Lynch should be careful with his language when speaking outside the socialist bubble.

 

[Bluejays]

Well it's like the polling station example. You're not under any duress and those with strong views won't change their minds. But those who are undecided are likely to be influenced.

Why did the RMT see fit to put the offer to their members if they were going to recommend rejecting it? And if they don't mind putting offers to their members that they don't think are worthy of acceptance, why didn't they do the same with the TOC offer? It just seems like they're going through the motions.

I disagree with your point, because I don't think you're taking into the account the fact that the entire membership aren't involved at the negotiating table.

I don't see what's so odd about the negotiators and union exec putting an offer to the membership that they aren't entirely happy with. If the union think that the offer they are putting to the members could be bettered or should be bettered then it's entirely reasonable that they say so. When a concrete offer is made it's important that the membership have their say, but a feel from the people around the table does add a needed context

 

[SCDR_WMR]

I don't believe that they are truly anonymous. My ballot paper had some sort of serial number on the bottom.

Well obviously! Otherwise they could be counting copies of a genuine ballot paper. It cannot be traced as they are sent out by the union and received by the polling company, it has no details on it other than a barcode to ensure voting is done correctly

 

[Thirteen]

As per my bolded words; Are you speaking as an outsider, because I am an outsider myself* and see it as a relevant question and Lynch's refusal to answer it even more relevant. That comment is more indicative of your unease about the situation (if you see yourself as an 'insider') than my accepting that it is informative to an "outsider".
Remember, Lynch had a level of public support in the summer where his union members' claim was considered to be relevant and not unreasonable. His increasingly aggressive left wing rants have undermines that support, and that may have influenced the swing towards acceptance of the offer. That is of interest to taxpayers, farepaying passengers and those that rely on rail travel in their lives. Lynch should be careful with his language when speaking outside the socialist bubble.

I think he shot himself in the foot dismissing the other unions in the interviews. That's not something you can recover from easily. It's a shame because he's been very good in his media appearance.

 

[baz962]

Well obviously! Otherwise they could be counting copies of a genuine ballot paper. It cannot be traced as they are sent out by the union and received by the polling company, it has no details on it other than a barcode to ensure voting is done correctly

I know it had no other details on it. But they could of course ( not saying that they do) make a record of the number as they put it in the envelope with the name and address on.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I know it had no other details on it. But they could of course ( not saying that they do) make a record of the number as they put it in the envelope with the name and address on.

Like with a political election it needs to be possible to trace a ballot paper back in the event of impropriety (e.g. allegation of a double vote), however it is more awkward to do mass back-tracing due to the nature of the process.

 

[baz962]

Like with a political election it needs to be possible to trace a ballot paper back in the event of impropriety (e.g. allegation of a double vote), however it is more awkward to do mass back-tracing due to the nature of the process.

Hard to do maybe. Impossible no as you have alluded to. So my point is correct in that it isn't necessarily anonymous. I'm not suggesting foul play though, just that they can find out if they want.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Hard to do maybe. Impossible no as you have alluded to. So my point is correct in that it isn't necessarily anonymous. I'm not suggesting foul play though, just that they can find out if they want.

It's indeed not impossible. The process makes it difficult, so it would generally only be done in extreme circumstances, e.g. where an irregularity in the ballot is suspected.

 

[DC1989]

I don't disagree but we don't need to imagine. That's exactly how the UK exit from the EU referendum was run. I suppose it's the unions job to look after its members interests in the same way it's supposed to be the government's job to look after ours. Lol emoji. Rofl emoji etc.

Exactly, outside my polling station were groups of Ukippers telling people to vote leave. Mad to think hostility like that doesn't have an effect on people

 

[Bald Rick]

On the maintenance side a lot of work formally done during the day is now going to be done at night when nothing is running, ostensibly for safety reasons, hence people used to working day shifts will be moving to nights. This is an absolutely massive change to Ts and Cs of front line maintenance, as anyone who has ever done any kind of shift work will confirm.

It’s not quite that simple. Work is indeed moving to nights - in fact it already has. The changes to rostered nights are however not for everyone ‘on the tools’ in maintenance. Many are already on the ’new’ roster pattern already, and a majority actually gain from the new patterns.

But I did wonder at the motivation behind Husain's repeated question about the average amount of pay lost by RMT members during the strike. To the outsider it's of no relevance, and the RMT members affected will already know how much they have lost. So it was hardly a question at all, just a way of saying "Mick Lynch, RMT members should hate you for costing them money". I can understand why he found that annoying.

It is very much of relevance for those who want to understand what the dispute is about. A typical signaller will have lost about £4k in the dispute so far, and will be losing about the same again in the next three weeks if they were going to be working Christmas Day / Boxing Day. That’s a hell of a lot of money, and is not recoverable by (say) an extra half a percent on the pay deal or whatever it is that the RMT leadership think might get the deal accepted.

The membership were entirely free to accept the deal if they wished.

How do you think the vote would have gone if they had recommended acceptance? It will be interesting to see the TSSA result on Thursday.

If it's true that they want to sack half the staff,

It isn’t true. The redundancies proposed are voluntary, and NR already has more than twice as many volunteers than needed. This dispute is nothing to do redundancy. (Except that if RMT settles, then those being made redundant would find their payouts an 9% bigger).

Well obviously! Otherwise they could be counting copies of a genuine ballot paper. It cannot be traced as they are sent out by the union and received by the polling company, it has no details on it other than a barcode to ensure voting is done correctly

For ballots this is the case. The vote that concluded yesterday was not a ballot, but a referendum run by the RMT, and doesn’t need to comply with legislation on secret ballots. AIUI it was was done online (No way could a postal vote have been done in a week with the current postal dispute).

 

[Tw99]

So come on people, predictions for what happens next with the NR dispute

It doesn't look at the moment like the Government are going to budge. They're using the same approach with the Nurses, a group that is likely to have rather more public support than rail workers, and even Labour have said the RCN's demand is unreasonable.

So I'd predict further disruption, getting less over time as staff need the money and have to return to work, and eventually a grudging acceptance by the staff that this is the best they'll get. Industrial relations will remain poor as a result.

 

[Taunton]

I see the BBC have illustrated their headline web story on the strike with a picture of the big Euston departure board completely blank.

Unfortunately that was taken out of service a little while ago, replaced by the new boards placed at right angles across the concourse. It's been blank for some time now.

It's here currently (just in case they change the picture I've done a page shot) :

Home - BBC News

Visit BBC News for up-to-the-minute news, breaking news, video, audio and feature stories. BBC News provides trusted World and UK news as well as local and regional perspectives. Also entertainment, business, science, technology and health news.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Parjon]

Mad

Absolutely

 

[ItsGrimUpNorth]

Is there anywhere that has a rough breakdown of what percentage of Network Rail employees are in the various unions, indeed, even those who are affiliated to none?

 

[Thirteen]

I do think the RMT will eventually concede and put the NR offer again but without recommendation. I just can't see NR offering a different deal.

 

[Falcon1200]

It is all very well suggesting that the RMT compromise but why should they have to if it isn't what they are seeking.

Equally of course, why should the employer have to compromise if it is not what they are seeking?

You say that but in part at least, RMT signallers are effectively on strike to protect the jobs of guards.

In which case someone should tell the Signallers, and the RMT, that the battle to stop DOO was lost nearly 40 years ago. But what we don't know is exactly what the employer's side means by DOO - Every single passenger train, or extensions similar to existing DOO operations?