Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
If I was Unite, I'd be a bit insulted that the largest trade union in the country was being dismissed by another union as miniscule.
It's certainly rather an affront to the idea of solidarity!
If I was Unite, I'd be a bit insulted that the largest trade union in the country was being dismissed by another union as miniscule.
Well it's like the polling station example. You're not under any duress and those with strong views won't change their minds. But those who are undecided are likely to be influenced.But the ballot is anonymous, and nobody is put under any duress*, as is often implied on here. It’s an entirely free vote and people just need to start to accept the RMT’s members are not idiots making their own decisions, not blindly following whatever they’re being told to do by “union barons”, or being beaten up in the messroom if they don’t vote a certain way…
*Unlike the embarrassing scenes in Parliament of MPs being manhandled by the whips over the summer, speaking of the government!
If it's true that they want to sack half the staff, and half the staff voted to strike and the other half didn't, then why don't they just say "turn up to work tomorrow or you're sacked for unauthorised absence"?
Who is really pulling this guy's strings.
I wonder if Lynch and perhaps the RMT leadership were stung by Unite accepting the offer on the same day as they rejected the deal.He was close to losing it in two interviews on the radio and did when questioned by Richard Madeley on GMB. He's been ok on the media before this but he really does need to dial back the rhetoric at the moment.
Honestly had he said, 'It's not good enough for our members for x reason' then it would have been fine but the Government and certain parts of the media are going to latch onto those comments. He's given ammunition to both NR and the Government.It's certainly rather an affront to the idea of solidarity!
Based on the outright rejection of the NR deal by the RMT leadership, there's no evidence they would have accepted a similar deal for the TOCs if only DOO/DCO hadn't been mentioned. The DOO talk obviously doomed it to rejection regardless but there's no real indication that other than that a deal was all but done.
Honestly had he said, 'It's not good enough for our members for x reason' then it would have been fine but the Government and certain parts of the media are going to latch onto those comments. He's given ammunition to both NR and the Government.
Come off it, is that a serious question? A strike is not unauthorised absence.If it's true that they want to sack half the staff, and half the staff voted to strike and the other half didn't, then why don't they just say "turn up to work tomorrow or you're sacked for unauthorised absence"?
Who is really pulling this guy's strings.
Surely NR would need proof that the RMT were engaging in secondary action because it'd be an expensive process to claim damages and sacking workers wouldn't be a good look either.I think he's in danger of the Government considering that he's actually engaging in illegal secondary action, i.e. that the dispute is mainly continuing in solidarity with the guards opposing DOO.
I don't disagree but we don't need to imagine. That's exactly how the UK exit from the EU referendum was run. I suppose it's the unions job to look after its members interests in the same way it's supposed to be the government's job to look after ours. Lol emoji. Rofl emoji etc.This wasn't an open vote - the RMT leadership advised members to vote against the deal. Imagine receiving a referendum ballot paper but being advised by the polling station staff to vote "no" to the question! It's not exactly what I'd expect of a party negotiating in good faith.
Well it's like the polling station example. You're not under any duress and those with strong views won't change their minds. But those who are undecided are likely to be influenced.
Why did the RMT see fit to put the offer to their members if they were going to recommend rejecting it? And if they don't mind putting offers to their members that they don't think are worthy of acceptance, why didn't they do the same with the TOC offer? It just seems like they're going through the motions.
I don't believe that they are truly anonymous. My ballot paper had some sort of serial number on the bottom.But the ballot is anonymous, and nobody is put under any duress*, as is often implied on here. It’s an entirely free vote and people just need to start to accept the RMT’s members are not idiots making their own decisions, not blindly following whatever they’re being told to do by “union barons”, or being beaten up in the messroom if they don’t vote a certain way…
*Unlike the embarrassing scenes in Parliament of MPs being manhandled by the whips over the summer, speaking of the government!
I don't disagree but we don't need to imagine. That's exactly how the UK exit from the EU referendum was run. I suppose it's the unions job to look after its members interests in the same way it's supposed to be the government's job to look after ours. Lol emoji. Rofl emoji etc.
If it's not unauthorised absence then why don't the staff get paid...! Of course it is! It's only a power balance that has to date prevented power being used to dramatically unilaterally end action.Come off it, is that a serious question? A strike is not unauthorised absence.
I hope you are not an employer. That kind of talk is why certain employe protections are in place.
And maybe the members might want to consider exercising their voting freedom a bit more too!!But the government telling us to vote a certain way was ignored - just as RMT members were free to do.
As per my bolded words; Are you speaking as an outsider, because I am an outsider myself* and see it as a relevant question and Lynch's refusal to answer it even more relevant. That comment is more indicative of your unease about the situation (if you see yourself as an 'insider') than my accepting that it is informative to an "outsider".But I did wonder at the motivation behind Husain's repeated question about the average amount of pay lost by RMT members during the strike. To the outsider it's of no relevance, and the RMT members affected will already know how much they have lost. So it was hardly a question at all, just a way of saying "Mick Lynch, RMT members should hate you for costing them money". I can understand why he found that annoying.
I disagree with your point, because I don't think you're taking into the account the fact that the entire membership aren't involved at the negotiating table.Well it's like the polling station example. You're not under any duress and those with strong views won't change their minds. But those who are undecided are likely to be influenced.
Why did the RMT see fit to put the offer to their members if they were going to recommend rejecting it? And if they don't mind putting offers to their members that they don't think are worthy of acceptance, why didn't they do the same with the TOC offer? It just seems like they're going through the motions.
Well obviously! Otherwise they could be counting copies of a genuine ballot paper. It cannot be traced as they are sent out by the union and received by the polling company, it has no details on it other than a barcode to ensure voting is done correctlyI don't believe that they are truly anonymous. My ballot paper had some sort of serial number on the bottom.
I think he shot himself in the foot dismissing the other unions in the interviews. That's not something you can recover from easily. It's a shame because he's been very good in his media appearance.As per my bolded words; Are you speaking as an outsider, because I am an outsider myself* and see it as a relevant question and Lynch's refusal to answer it even more relevant. That comment is more indicative of your unease about the situation (if you see yourself as an 'insider') than my accepting that it is informative to an "outsider".
Remember, Lynch had a level of public support in the summer where his union members' claim was considered to be relevant and not unreasonable. His increasingly aggressive left wing rants have undermines that support, and that may have influenced the swing towards acceptance of the offer. That is of interest to taxpayers, farepaying passengers and those that rely on rail travel in their lives. Lynch should be careful with his language when speaking outside the socialist bubble.
I know it had no other details on it. But they could of course ( not saying that they do) make a record of the number as they put it in the envelope with the name and address on.Well obviously! Otherwise they could be counting copies of a genuine ballot paper. It cannot be traced as they are sent out by the union and received by the polling company, it has no details on it other than a barcode to ensure voting is done correctly
I know it had no other details on it. But they could of course ( not saying that they do) make a record of the number as they put it in the envelope with the name and address on.
Hard to do maybe. Impossible no as you have alluded to. So my point is correct in that it isn't necessarily anonymous. I'm not suggesting foul play though, just that they can find out if they want.Like with a political election it needs to be possible to trace a ballot paper back in the event of impropriety (e.g. allegation of a double vote), however it is more awkward to do mass back-tracing due to the nature of the process.
Hard to do maybe. Impossible no as you have alluded to. So my point is correct in that it isn't necessarily anonymous. I'm not suggesting foul play though, just that they can find out if they want.
I don't disagree but we don't need to imagine. That's exactly how the UK exit from the EU referendum was run. I suppose it's the unions job to look after its members interests in the same way it's supposed to be the government's job to look after ours. Lol emoji. Rofl emoji etc.
On the maintenance side a lot of work formally done during the day is now going to be done at night when nothing is running, ostensibly for safety reasons, hence people used to working day shifts will be moving to nights. This is an absolutely massive change to Ts and Cs of front line maintenance, as anyone who has ever done any kind of shift work will confirm.
But I did wonder at the motivation behind Husain's repeated question about the average amount of pay lost by RMT members during the strike. To the outsider it's of no relevance, and the RMT members affected will already know how much they have lost. So it was hardly a question at all, just a way of saying "Mick Lynch, RMT members should hate you for costing them money". I can understand why he found that annoying.
The membership were entirely free to accept the deal if they wished.
If it's true that they want to sack half the staff,
Well obviously! Otherwise they could be counting copies of a genuine ballot paper. It cannot be traced as they are sent out by the union and received by the polling company, it has no details on it other than a barcode to ensure voting is done correctly
So come on people, predictions for what happens next with the NR dispute
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Absolutely
It is all very well suggesting that the RMT compromise but why should they have to if it isn't what they are seeking.
You say that but in part at least, RMT signallers are effectively on strike to protect the jobs of guards.