United Kingdom/Ireland Tunnel?

[SussexSpotter]

Not sure if this has been discussed on here before, sorry if it has. However thought i'd start this thread to see whether or not you can actually see it happening, also which route you think it should take?....

 

[D365]

Has been 'threaded' before many times

 

[Anon Mouse]

Stranraer to Larne maybe pretty short. Would have to have dual guage tracks to get to Belfast and beyond or re-guage the NIR network and to Dublin. It certainly would cost much more than just building a tunnel

 

[yorkie]

Has been 'threaded' before many times

Indeed.

These threads may be of interest

• Victorian plan for a Scotland-Ireland tunnel
• Scotland - N Ireland bridge or tunnel
• If you could create underwater tunnels for rail travel...

Unfortunately the latter thread included (and started with) bonkers ideas, but there are some more sensible ones in there including one to Ireland.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Indeed.

These threads may be of interest

• Victorian plan for a Scotland-Ireland tunnel
• Scotland - N Ireland bridge or tunnel
• If you could create underwater tunnels for rail travel...

Unfortunately the latter thread included (and started with) bonkers ideas, but there are some more sensible ones in there including one to Ireland.

Hey, don't knock bonkers! Nothing wrong with a bit of bonkers to add a bit of humour!

 

[GM078]

For the expense and limited interconnectivity it would offer I really can't see such a scheme being of much benefit to either island.

There was a brief article on one of the proposed Victorian schemes in Five Foot Three (RPSI journal), available here:

http://www.steamtrainsireland.com/FFT/FFT36.pdf

 

[Ivo]

The problem is that the most economically viable route would also be the longest - Holyhead to Dublin. Such a route would allow relatively easy access to the Emerald Isle's largest and most central coastal city from London, Birmingham and the M62 corridor, and would also justify electrification of the North Wales line. However, as stated, it is the longest of the four, and as such would probably never get done.

Not to mention it would put a lot of ferry workers out of a job...

 

[gnolife]

The problem is that the most economically viable route would also be the longest - Holyhead to Dublin. Such a route would allow relatively easy access to the Emerald Isle's largest and most central coastal city from London, Birmingham and the M62 corridor, and would also justify electrification of the North Wales line. However, as stated, it is the longest of the four, and as such would probably never get done.

Not to mention it would put a lot of ferry workers out of a job...

But it would create jobs working the trains that'd go through the tunnel though, so I don't think there'd be too much gain or loss there.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Oh, and Yellow on White is a stupid combination of colours BTW

 

[PFX]

and as such would probably never get done.

Haha. Try 'will never get done'.

Anyway, as has been stated in response to the OP, this one's been discussed at length.

 

[HSTEd]

Journey times between London and Holyhead are not that much lower than Journey times from London to Glasgow......

Without construction of a dedicated high speed line all the way from Holyhead to England, either via teh North Coast or via a straight line route, it cannot hope to compete with air travel times.

A high speed line to Glasgow (by either of the two oft suggested routes) is far more likely to be built than one to Holyhead I think you will agree.
I hear talk of a fast train on a line to Glasgow achieving something on order of 2hr30 if it can manage without significant numbers of intermediate stops.

115km of dedicated high speed line from Glasgow to Stranraer and then a tunnel of 35km and a further 30km of high speed line to reach Belfast compared to the ~160km of dedicated high speed line from Crewe to Holyhead and then a tunnel of 95km to reach Dublin.

Either route would manage competitive air travel times to both cities if a 140km high speed line was built between them. (Indeed you might be able to manage ~3hr30 to Dublin even via Glasgow)

As to the "greater traffic" of the route via Dublin, since this project almost certainly will not be entirely commercially self supporting we have to judge what gives British taxpayers the best value for money since it will certainly be the British government htat provides the majority of the money for such construction work.

Going via Dublin creates an international tunnel and binds Northern Ireland more tightly to the republic, going via Belfast however binds Northern Ireland more closely to the union and then binds Ireland via Northern Ireland to the Union.
I think the political economics comes out in favour of a northern route.
It also turns Northern Ireland into a dormitory for the Central Belt of scotland which would have interesting effects on the current politics of northern ireland, especially if there is a large influx of immigrants looking for cheap housing within reach of existing commercial centres.

 

[tbtc]

The problem is that the most economically viable route would also be the longest - Holyhead to Dublin. Such a route would allow relatively easy access to the Emerald Isle's largest and most central coastal city from London, Birmingham and the M62 corridor, and would also justify electrification of the North Wales line

Sensible words.

I've debated this before on other threads, but the main points I'd make are:

The advantage of the channel tunnel is that the shortest route was also the main economic corridor between the UK and "the continent". Same goes for the bridge between Sweden and Denmark...

...however there's no "obvious" link from Great Britain to "Ireland" (referring to the whole island - since Norn Iron is obviously part of the UK). There's something to be said for a Stranraer crossing, a Holyhead crossing and a Fishguard crossing. However, building any one crossing would weaken the case for a second one considerably, so we'd have to decide whether to go for the cheapest crossing or the main economic route.

As well as the economics, there's the politics. Lots of it. In a hundred years time will Northern Ireland be part of the UK? In fact, will Scotland/ Wales? Should England wait for the various independence campaigns and then leave the cost of building a tunnel to the new countries?

 

[HSTEd]

As well as the economics, there's the politics. Lots of it. In a hundred years time will Northern Ireland be part of the UK? In fact, will Scotland/ Wales? Should England wait for the various independence campaigns and then leave the cost of building a tunnel to the new countries?

If we build a tunnel to Northern Ireland now, it is far less likely that the independence movement (in this case resurgent republicanism due to demographic issues) will gain significant traction.

A fixed link will bring Northern Ireland into the union to a far greater extent and cause all sorts of cross immigration that will "dilute" its current social groups through mixing wtih the ones prevalent on the mainland UK.

 

[tbtc]

If we build a tunnel to Northern Ireland now, it is far less likely that the independence movement (in this case resurgent republicanism due to demographic issues) will gain significant traction.

A fixed link will bring Northern Ireland into the union to a far greater extent and cause all sorts of cross immigration that will "dilute" its current social groups through mixing wtih the ones prevalent on the mainland UK.

One of the main reasons for the problems in Northern Ireland has been "diluting the social groups with immigration from mainland UK".

Do you really see significantly more people moving to Belfast because of a direct train to Glasgow?

 

[HSTEd]

One of the main reasons for the problems in Northern Ireland has been "diluting the social groups with immigration from mainland UK".

Do you really see significantly more people moving to Belfast because of a direct train to Glasgow?

Not in the first ten years no, but we are talking on the order of decades here.

A more sizeable effect will be significant numbers of people living in Northern IReland getting jobs on the mainland UK.

People are less likely to support seperation when it will put your job in a different country with a different currency.

 

[PFX]

The statements above show a very naive understanding of the current state of politics here and lack of understanding of what is behind the euphemistically named "problems" we're experiencing. What you see on the BBC news is far removed from the reality of what I see and experience around me on a daily basis.

Politics aside, the size of Belfast makes any notion of a tunnel to the north, as likely as it does of me becoming king of the planet. With a population in the region of 280,000, it would be a nonsense to even consider such a link.

 

[34D]

Any prospect the link could go via the Isle of Man?

 

[Mutant Lemming]

it would be a nonsense to even consider such a link.

It may be a better idea to establish a link between the two ends of Northumberland Street before any wild notions of bridges across the sea.

 

[W.Tregurtha]

I think there's more chance of North Korea winning the Eurovision sing contest.

 

[Waverley125]

So I do think this would be a good idea.

The right way of doing it is on the Fishguard-Rosslare alignment, if done in the right way.

1. As part of an HSL from London to West of England & Wales that would serve Bristol, Cardiff & Swansea

2. As part of an HSL from Dublin to Cork.

3. With a Y junction at Rosslare to allow trains from both Dublin & Cork to access the tunnel.

This means that the effective cost of the project is the 70-odd miles of extra HSL from Swansea to Fishguard plus the cost of the tunnel itself.

 

[reb0118]

All pie in the sky at present but my choice would be to reopen the old Port Road from Dumfries to Portpatrick (or nearby) tunnel to Donaghadee with a UK gauge railway from there to Belfast. Possibly following the route of the line through Newtownards. This would follow the shortest viable sea crossing between the islands (excepting of course Kintyre - Antrim).

The route from Carlisle would be configured for fast but not necessarily high-speed running and a mixture of through and local travel possibilities would be envisaged. Electrification would be a further option.

For journeys to/from the Scottish Central Belt the section from Dunragit to Ayr would need upgrading (esp. some overbridges) to allow heavy freight to operate and electrification would also be desirable.

Build it and they shall come!

 

[Eagle]

One thing that people often forget is that the North Channel (between Galloway and Larne) is the deepest part of the entire European continental shelf, over 800 feet below sea level and pretty precipitous. It's pretty much an inverted ridge of small mountains. And you've no choice but to tunnel below that. I wouldn't fancy those gradients.

 

[AndyLandy]

One thing that people often forget is that the North Channel (between Galloway and Larne) is the deepest part of the entire European continental shelf, over 800 feet below sea level and pretty precipitous. It's pretty much an inverted ridge of small mountains. And you've no choice but to tunnel below that. I wouldn't fancy those gradients.

Beaufort's Dyke is the sea trench between Northern Ireland and Scotland within the North Channel. The dyke is 50 km long, 3.5 km wide and 200–300 metres deep. Because of its depth and its proximity to the Cairnryan military port, it became the United Kingdom's largest offshore dump site for conventional and chemical munitions after the Second World War; in July 1945, 14,500 tons of 5-inch artillery rockets filled with phosgene were dumped in Beaufort's Dyke.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beaufort%27s_Dyke

Hmm, that might just be another reason to steer well clear of the area...

 

[reb0118]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beaufort%27s_Dyke

Hmm, that might just be another reason to steer well clear of the area...

I wondered when this would be raised?

In fact another idea has just sprung to mind. At one time there was a proposal to dam the Firth of Forth at Queensferry, with the creation of a causeway for road/rail transport. A hydro electric generator would also have been installed. Would it be possible to dam the North Channel?

 

[PFX]

The map below llustrates Eagle's point.

Effectively any route from The Rhins would be 'blocked'.

 

[Cyberbeagle]

As much as I would love it to happen (or a bridge, as far as I know there's a bridge longer than the distance between Portpatrick and Donaghadee in China), I certainly don't think it will ever be done on *economic* grounds. It would have to be political - direct rail links between London and the three regional capitals, that sort of thing.

The irony is the the poor DRD is currently twisting themselves in knots over European interoperability regulations, when there is no chance of this ever mattering in Ireland, north or south, unless this bridge or tunnel was ever built.

But in the meantime we'll argue about how best to upgrade the Belfast-Dublin line and not actually do it

 

[PFX]

The irony is the the poor DRD is currently twisting themselves in knots over European interoperability regulations, when there is no chance of this ever mattering in Ireland, north or south, unless this bridge or tunnel was ever built.

This was a very bad miss by both the Oireachtas and NI Assembly. Certainly as far as the NIA is concerned, proper scrutiny of subsidiarity issues could well have resulted in an exemption for the entire island.

 

[LexyBoy]

As much as I would love it to happen (or a bridge, as far as I know there's a bridge longer than the distance between Portpatrick and Donaghadee in China

Not a bridge as such; the Chinese use long stretches of HSL elevated on viaducts through densely populated and/or swampy ground (this is the one you're thinking of). Such a bridge over deep sea is a very different prospect.

I agree though that the "how" is an economic question. If an economic justification could be found, it could be built - the technical challenges are nothing new (c.f. the Seikan tunnel, which goes 240 metres below sea level). If it were to happen, linking a new London-Wales HSL on to Dublin and though to Belfast seems a good option - more capacity than HS2 and a quicker London-Dublin journey than the northern crossing.

 

[Comstock]

This is something I've long been fascinated by. The most recent piece of substantial news I've seen on the subject is this http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/south_of_scotland/6958191.stm

£3.5 bn isn't peanuts, but nor is it that big compared with total government spending of around 700 billion every year.

If it can really be done for £3.5 billion I say go for it.

 

[Wikipedia]

And to combat the gauge difference use this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZiH4kt14yGw

 

[pablo]

Deleted; already said.