Unverified proposals for Cl 222 Meridians on Waterloo-Exeter (and maybe beyond)

[jimm]

Why are people obsessed with putting 222s on Liverpool-Norwich?

Simple, the ability to increase passenger capacity east of Nottingham - unless you know of some secret stash of 158s that aren't being used - given the likelihood of any 158s being displaced from work with other TOCs for quite some time is pretty remote.

So if you can't get more 158s, then you look for something else that is likely to be available sooner. And if Abellio is going to get re-worked HSTs for Scotland, one of the more obvious places to redeploy 222s - on Scottish expresses - goes out of the window.

Using them on Liverpool-Norwich is just an idea, same as people advocating using them on Great Western West Country services.

The fact is that there are not a whole lot of places where 125mph-capable dmus with coaches with end doors are going to find alternative employment once the MML is wired, beyond presumably giving XC a helping hand pending electrification, so giving a capacity boost to various hard-pressed inter-regional services, along with improved acceleration and the potential to benefit from work to increase speed limits, is one possibility.

Originally posted by 21C101 on this thread: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=112532


Could 222s run this service if it ever happened?

They could, if they get gauge clearance and the track is up to it, but I doubt SWT would fancy risking the reliability of Exeter-Waterloo trains by sending them up a 39-mile single-track line and back again, with lots of scope for picking up delays, when you consider the constraints that the single-line sections east of Exeter already impose.

 

[MarkyT]

They could, if they get gauge clearance and the track is up to it, but I doubt SWT would fancy risking the reliability of Exeter-Waterloo trains by sending them up a 39-mile single-track line and back again, with lots of scope for picking up delays, when you consider the constraints that the single-line sections east of Exeter already impose.

Many existing Barnstaple line passengers would not appreciate the change in routing either, with the current Barnstaple - Exmouth pattern having been established for decades now. This has the advantage of serving Digby and Sowton, now a very popular destination with much employment nearby, and the new station being constructed at Newcourt will no doubt also prove popular, not just as a residential railhead, but also as a destination, being close to retail and employment developments including the new IKEA store.

 

[ainsworth74]

Simple, the ability to increase passenger capacity east of Nottingham - unless you know of some secret stash of 158s that aren't being used - given the likelihood of any 158s being displaced from work with other TOCs for quite some time is pretty remote.

It might increase capacity east of Nottingham but what about west? I don't think I'm wrong to say that four and five car Meridians have less seating capacity than a four car 158 (due to things like buffets, disabled toilets and crumple zones). So you could increase capacity on one side of Nottingham and harm it on the other, more heavily loaded, side.

Seems like six of one half a dozen of the other!

 

[222007]

It might increase capacity east of Nottingham but what about west? I don't think I'm wrong to say that four and five car Meridians have less seating capacity than a four car 158 (due to things like buffets, disabled toilets and crumple zones). So you could increase capacity on one side of Nottingham and harm it on the other, more heavily loaded, side.

Seems like six of one half a dozen of the other!

Extra standing space in the 5th coach would create the extra capacity. Im sure the first class area could have standard seating put in which would increase seating

 

[jimm]

It might increase capacity east of Nottingham but what about west? I don't think I'm wrong to say that four and five car Meridians have less seating capacity than a four car 158 (due to things like buffets, disabled toilets and crumple zones). So you could increase capacity on one side of Nottingham and harm it on the other, more heavily loaded, side.

Seems like six of one half a dozen of the other!

I'm not saying the 222s are the answer - I have no strong feelings either way - but doing nothing in terms of capacity on that route either side of Nottingham is not really sustainable, is it? And Eversholt will want to find something for 222s to do once wires go up north of Bedford, the inter-regional routes tend not to be top of electrification priority lists, with most looking reliant on some elements of infill once other work is done to switch to electric traction, so who knows what might happen in the meantime. If you reconfigure a four-car 222 without first class and an XC-type luggage area instead of the buffet, you would get a train with 200-plus seats, so a decent increase on a 158, albeit with bigger running costs.

 

[First class]

Nottingham-Norwich is for the most part able to very comfortably sustain a single 2-car Class 158. 4-car workings are used to/from Norwich on the busiest services. A 222 is frankly overkill other than during special events.

If you used 4-car 222s, then it could probably be justified, but the speed restrictions on the Fens would mean other efficiencies are needed, such as guaranteed fast lines on the ECML instead of slow line usage, removal of March and similar "local" stops, and using the Ely West Curve to avoid Ely entirely.

Running a HST relief up there on Summer Saturdays etc (maybe continuing to Great Yarmouth) would be ideal and solve the luggage problem.

Nottingham-Liverpool is a different matter.

 

[HSTEd]

Wouldn't the best place for 222s to go be to XC as HST replacement?
Reform them into the original 7-car and 4-car sets.

 

[jonty14]

Could we have an explanation of LSL and SSL?

I was just going to ask that as well. A list of abbreviations on this forum would be helpful.

 

[jimm]

Nottingham-Norwich is for the most part able to very comfortably sustain a single 2-car Class 158. 4-car workings are used to/from Norwich on the busiest services. A 222 is frankly overkill other than during special events.

If you used 4-car 222s, then it could probably be justified, but the speed restrictions on the Fens would mean other efficiencies are needed, such as guaranteed fast lines on the ECML instead of slow line usage, removal of March and similar "local" stops, and using the Ely West Curve to avoid Ely entirely.

Running a HST relief up there on Summer Saturdays etc (maybe continuing to Great Yarmouth) would be ideal and solve the luggage problem.

Nottingham-Liverpool is a different matter.

Yes, there are currently differential speed limits in East Anglia - a point raised over and over whenever anyone mentions possible future uses for 222s and dares to suggest Liverpool-Norwich - but just the same as I said above about the current speed limits between Salisbury and Exeter, these things are not set in stone if the necessary improvements are made to the track and signals.

XC might take some 222s for a time pending electrification - though how many it could afford/would be allowed to lease is open to question - but if they are moved to the likes of Liverpool-Nottingham-Norwich, or Waterloo-Exeter, then they make a lot of 158 or 159 stock available for routes where 22xs would not be suitable or those where 158s or 159s would be better than 150s on longer runs or simply where more 158s would be handy. Send 222s to SWT and you could then use the 158s and 159s they free for Liverpool-Norwich or Cardiff-Portsmouth and boosting ATW's fleet.

IF FGW is going to get more IEP bi-modes for Devon and Cornwall work, then Waterloo-Exeter looks like a good bet for 222s.

 

[First class]

Yes, there are currently differential speed limits in East Anglia - a point raised over and over whenever anyone mentions possible future uses for 222s and dares to suggest Liverpool-Norwich - but just the same as I said above about the current speed limits between Salisbury and Exeter, these things are not set in stone if the necessary improvements are made to the track and signals.

XC might take some 222s for a time pending electrification - though how many it could afford/would be allowed to lease is open to question - but if they are moved to the likes of Liverpool-Nottingham-Norwich, or Waterloo-Exeter, then they make a lot of 158 or 159 stock available for routes where 22xs would not be suitable or those where 158s or 159s would be better than 150s on longer runs or simply where more 158s would be handy. Send 222s to SWT and you could then use the 158s and 159s they free for Liverpool-Norwich or Cardiff-Portsmouth and boosting ATW's fleet.

IF FGW is going to get more IEP bi-modes for Devon and Cornwall work, then Waterloo-Exeter looks like a good bet for 222s.

There's nothing really stopping 222s going 90mph (linespeed) on the Fens, the track can take it, but the problem is that heavier trains obviously cause more wear, which increases maintenance bills, and on a line that is far from profitable, (with most of the intermediate stations (Spooner Row, Eccles Road, Harling Road, Lakenheath, Shippea Hill, all barely open, you could never justify the additional track spend. In the South West area, you might get a better benefit:cost ratio.

Peterborough-Ely is arguably a better prospect to upgrade for XC 222 operation, maybe cascade the 170s to EMT/Greater Anglia, but the environment is difficult and harsh.

 

[21C101]

Many existing Barnstaple line passengers would not appreciate the change in routing either, with the current Barnstaple - Exmouth pattern having been established for decades now. This has the advantage of serving Digby and Sowton, now a very popular destination with much employment nearby, and the new station being constructed at Newcourt will no doubt also prove popular, not just as a residential railhead, but also as a destination, being close to retail and employment developments including the new IKEA store.

Apparently thats happening anyway in a couple of years or so. The Exmouth trains will all reverse at St Davids and go to Paignton and the Barnstaple services run to Axminster to give a half hourly service from Axminster to Exeter.

Not a great leap of the imagination therefore to run through services from Barnstaple to Waterloo.

 

[NSEFAN]

Apparently thats happening anyway in a couple of years or so. The Exmouth trains will all reverse at St Davids and go to Paignton and the Barnstaple services run to Axminster to give a half hourly service from Axminster to Exeter.

Not a great leap of the imagination therefore to run through services from Barnstaple to Waterloo.

It will put the service reliability at risk, though. I personally would rather Waterloo-Exeter and Barnstaple-Axminster remained separate services, even if they are allocated under the same TOC.

 

[The Ham]

IF FGW is going to get more IEP bi-modes for Devon and Cornwall work, then Waterloo-Exeter looks like a good bet for 222s.

Other than the issue of capacity. A 10 coach 222 has less seats than a 9 coach 159.

 

[TerminalJunkie]

Not a great leap of the imagination therefore to run through services from Barnstaple to Waterloo.

Do the 'Rules of the Plan' still require a 35-minute allowance at Barnstaple to turn around trains that started 'beyond Exeter'? That would muck up the hourly service a bit!

 

[TheWalrus]

Is there a path available for an additional hourly Liverpool/Manchester-Nottingham service?

 

[edwin_m]

Is there a path available for an additional hourly Liverpool/Manchester-Nottingham service?

Hope Valley enhancements might allow an extra path. This would probably go to Derby however, although after Derby remodelling it might be able to continue to Nottingham.

 

[swt_passenger]

It will put the service reliability at risk, though. I personally would rather Waterloo-Exeter and Barnstaple-Axminster remained separate services, even if they are allocated under the same TOC.

But they aren't proposed as SWT services in franchise specs. They are quite clearly going to be GW franchise operated services, and without further re-doubling east of Axminster cannot run any further.

Using the existing description of the extra Axminster stopper (only 2 hourly on existing infrastructure) is not an indication that anyone in authority is thinking of a Barnstaple - Waterloo service, whatever is being proposed in this forum.

 

[jimm]

Apparently thats happening anyway in a couple of years or so. The Exmouth trains will all reverse at St Davids and go to Paignton and the Barnstaple services run to Axminster to give a half hourly service from Axminster to Exeter.

Not a great leap of the imagination therefore to run through services from Barnstaple to Waterloo.

I fail to see why on earth SWT would want to start running what is essentially a local service to North Devon up a single-track line with severe operating constraints on the back of a long-distance service that is hard enough to make punctual already due to long sections of single track west of Salisbury.

Just because there used to be a Waterloo-Barnstaple service in the past does not mean it makes any sense today. Had the GWR acquired the Exeter & Crediton Railway in the 1840s, rather than the LSWR, then such a service might never have existed in the first place.

Other than the issue of capacity. A 10 coach 222 has less seats than a 9 coach 159.

Despite which you keep trying to push 222s as replacements for FGW West Country HSTs, which also have far more seats than Meridians. So if re-forming 222s for the GW route can magically increase seat numbers, as you suggested on the first page of the thread, then why not on SWT?

 

[The Ham]

Despite which you keep trying to push 222s as replacements for FGW West Country HSTs, which also have far more seats than Meridians. So if re-forming 222s for the GW route can magically increase seat numbers, as you suggested on the first page of the thread, then why not on SWT?

If you read what I have said the 222's can provide more seats over the day (if run hourly) over the HST's (which run 9 services a day) to the west country as well as (I didn't mention on this thread but have on others) is that you can get close to the same number of seats as a HST if run as a pair of sets resulting in an 11 coach train (which is basically the same length as a HST), which would then be run on the busiest of services.

This is very different to the WofE services run by SWT's where the units are already run by MU's meaning that there is no "lost" platform length due to Locos. This then means that there would be a noticeable drop in seats if the 222's were to be introduced. As there is also little or no scope to provide extra services during the day, the only way to even keep the number of seats the same over the day would be to provide a LOT more capacity off peak. However, given a lot of the passenger flows are commuters (compared to the GW services, where the flows are spread through the day more evenly), then this would not be all that helpful.

Although my personal preference would be for class 800's to run hourly leading to an increase in seats per train AND seats over the day over the existing (potentially with an increase in services over the existing 9). However the idea with using the 222's is that it would allow GW the opportunity to determine if the larger capacity of the 800's were needed, whilst gaining the journey time improvements which the 222's would bring over the HST's.

Which is why I responded positively to the post about GW looking (favourably) at the idea of using the class 800's.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Yes some on wnxx seem to be suggesting Bristol - Plymouth/Penzance semi fasts for shortened HST's,...

I would have thought that if GW are considering shorted HST's for Bristol - Plymouth/Penzance, maybe these services could be a good candidate for 222's (given there is a lack of other places which they are suitable for and the lower track access charges which they would incur compared with the HST's).

 

[47802]

I would have thought that if GW are considering shorted HST's for Bristol - Plymouth/Penzance, maybe these services could be a good candidate for 222's (given there is a lack of other places which they are suitable for and the lower track access charges which they would incur compared with the HST's).

As I said previously the bulk of 222's will not be available until 2021 and that assumes the latest Midland Electrification schedule run's to time.

This is supposedly one reason why 222 are potentially discounted for London West Country services, The shortened HST's for Bristol - Penzance and possibly other routes, displaced by the proposed West Country IEP's should still be available earlier but will need to be made 2020 compliant. Even if the West Country IEP were delayed beyond 2020 then making the HST's 2020 compliant wouldn't be wasted by moving them to the Bristol services when available. 222 I guess could replace HST's at a later date but with money being spent on making the HST's compliant may be reluctant to do so, in any case that would be a decision for the DFT and the next franchise rather than the current FGW direct award

Of course the above is allegedly only a proposal at present fuelled by the likely delays to GW electrification an alternative might be to make the HST's compliant and replace them with 222 on the London - West Country when available, that probably wouldn't be a popular choice and you would likely need to make more HST carriages 2020 compliant than would be eventually needed when they are pushed onto the secondary GW services.

 

[The Ham]

As I said previously the bulk of 222's will not be available until 2021 and that assumes the latest Midland Electrification schedule run's to time.

This is supposedly one reason why 222 are potentially discounted for London West Country services, The shortened HST's for Bristol - Penzance and possibly other routes, displaced by the proposed West Country IEP's should still be available earlier but will need to be made 2020 compliant. Even if the West Country IEP were delayed beyond 2020 then making the HST's 2020 compliant wouldn't be wasted by moving them to the Bristol services when available. 222 I guess could replace HST's at a later date but with money being spent on making the HST's compliant may be reluctant to do so, in any case that would be a decision for the DFT and the next franchise rather than the current FGW direct award

Of course the above is allegedly only a proposal at present fuelled by the likely delays to GW electrification an alternative might be to make the HST's compliant and replace them with 222 on the London - West Country when available, that probably wouldn't be a popular choice and you would likely need to make more HST carriages 2020 compliant than would be eventually needed when they are pushed onto the secondary GW services.

You would only need 5 (excluding spares) 222's to run Bristol to Plymouth on an hourly frequency, even allowing for some spares and a bi-hourly service to Penzance and you'd only need between 1/3 and 1/2 of the 222 fleet. Meaning that there would be a good chance that even with all the electrification taking until 2021 that there could be enough units freed up by electrification by the end of 2020.

Even if there is not, then there could be a few shortened HST's (but not as many as would be needed to run the whole service, possibly only 12 coaches to form 2 trains) which could be made 2020 compliant to fill in the gaps in services until whenever in 2020 that enough of the 222 fleet is freed up. These trains could then be used as crowd busters where needed after 2021 by GW or could be used by another TOC to release DMU's.

 

[jimm]

If you read what I have said the 222's can provide more seats over the day (if run hourly) over the HST's (which run 9 services a day) to the west country as well as (I didn't mention on this thread but have on others) is that you can get close to the same number of seats as a HST if run as a pair of sets resulting in an 11 coach train (which is basically the same length as a HST), which would then be run on the busiest of services.

This is very different to the WofE services run by SWT's where the units are already run by MU's meaning that there is no "lost" platform length due to Locos. This then means that there would be a noticeable drop in seats if the 222's were to be introduced. As there is also little or no scope to provide extra services during the day, the only way to even keep the number of seats the same over the day would be to provide a LOT more capacity off peak. However, given a lot of the passenger flows are commuters (compared to the GW services, where the flows are spread through the day more evenly), then this would not be all that helpful.

Although my personal preference would be for class 800's to run hourly leading to an increase in seats per train AND seats over the day over the existing (potentially with an increase in services over the existing 9). However the idea with using the 222's is that it would allow GW the opportunity to determine if the larger capacity of the 800's were needed, whilst gaining the journey time improvements which the 222's would bring over the HST's.

Which is why I responded positively to the post about GW looking (favourably) at the idea of using the class 800's.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

We've been round the houses before about your notions on 222s to Cornwall, such as the idea that the Newquay branch is just crying out for frequent trains to and from London...

You say there is "little or no scope to provide extra services during the day". Where? West of Salisbury? West of Yeovil? Are extra services and seats needed west of Salisbury or Yeovil anyway? The pressure is east of Salisbury and from there it's double or quadruple track - admittedly already busy - all the way to Waterloo, so there might just be the scope for the odd extra train there.

222s may not be perfect for Waterloo-Exeter, but then you could well argue that the 159s aren't either, they just happened to be what was available back in the early 1990s. In the world of rolling stock cascades 158/159s are going to be far easier to find suitable alternative work for than any kind of 22x, which, if they run out of intercity options, will have to be put on inter-regional jobs instead, such as Waterloo-Exeter, however much people go on here about how frightful it would be not using them at top speed.

And why it is that it has taken quite so long to get round to the obvious conclusion - that having a common fleet of new express rolling stock for GW services is the only sensible way to go - beats me. The sooner an order for more IEPs is sorted out, the better, preferably as part of the announcement on the new FGW direct award to provide some clarity, even if the trains won't actually arrive until a competitive franchise tender process has finally been held to find a post-2019 GW operator.

No one in their right mind is going to go through the rigmarole of transferring in a fleet of 222s in order to find out if what GW West Country services really need is more Class 800s. By which time Hitachi will have shut down the production line anyway - which is why an order to follow straight on from the current 800/801 orders is the way to go.

 

[21C101]

I fail to see why on earth SWT would want to start running what is essentially a local service to North Devon up a single-track line with severe operating constraints on the back of a long-distance service that is hard enough to make punctual already due to long sections of single track west of Salisbury.

Just because there used to be a Waterloo-Barnstaple service in the past does not mean it makes any sense today. Had the GWR acquired the Exeter & Crediton Railway in the 1840s, rather than the LSWR, then such a service might never have existed in the first place.

If you want to see why SWT might want to run to Barnstaple (catchment area 120,000 resident plus heaven knows how many summer tourists) stand outside Barnstaple station ticket office.

Six years ago First ran all the local buses and if you wanted to go to say, Ilfracombe you had thick end of a miles walk to the bus station.

Now if you stand outside Barnstaple ticket office you will see no First buses but endless Stagecoach buses going to Bideford and Braunton every 10 minutes and Westward Ho and Ilfracombe every 20 minutes. Look up Wikipedia to see how train patronage at Barnstaple has risen since Stagecoach did this.

Stagecoach have basically run First out of North Devon. The train is now pretty well the only First operated public transport service in North Devon.

Also as of a month ago Stagecoach now run the entire bus service from Exeter to Okehampton, Halwill, Bude and Launceston.

Now consider who owns South West Trains and you have the answer as to why SWT might want to run Waterloo - Exeter services onto Barnstaple, a route that until 1964 was a full blown inter city route wth 5-6 express trains to London a day, even in midwinter. .

 

[ExRes]

One point that many seem to have overlooked regarding 222s and their top speed, other than the handful of MML/EMT services that used the ECML, they were restricted by the line speeds applicable on the MML for almost 10 years exactly the same as HSTs were, you use what's available where you can and it should be remembered that 222s hold the ace because of their SDO making them useable at any and all stations on any and all routes, RA and structures permitting of course

 

[HarleyDavidson]

There maybe an issue with going beyond Exeter, due to the way that the track was relaid, it's been done with the lightweight 142/143 & 150's in mind, not the heavyweight 222s.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

There maybe an issue with going beyond Exeter, due to the way that the track was relaid, it's been done with the lightweight 142/143 & 150's in mind, not the heavyweight 222s.

Will that also affect class 800s if they were to ever run past Exeter?

 

[TerminalJunkie]

If you want to see why SWT might want to run to Barnstaple (catchment area 120,000 resident plus heaven knows how many summer tourists) stand outside Barnstaple station ticket office.

[...]

Now if you stand outside Barnstaple ticket office you will see no First buses but endless Stagecoach buses going to Bideford and Braunton every 10 minutes and Westward Ho and Ilfracombe every 20 minutes. Look up Wikipedia to see how train patronage at Barnstaple has risen since Stagecoach did this.

*snort*

The bus services are nice, but weren't the catalyst for the increasing footfall - that's down to the clockface hourly service put in place by Wessex Trains, and was boosted when FGW cut the fares in 2006.

 

[northwichcat]

Is there a path available for an additional hourly Liverpool/Manchester-Nottingham service?

Hope Valley enhancements might allow an extra path. This would probably go to Derby however, although after Derby remodelling it might be able to continue to Nottingham.

Extra paths created as a result of the Ordsall Chord/North TPE service changes in the 'South Manchester' area have been reserved for extra Mid-Cheshire, Buxton and Macclesfield line services (in 2017) as well as extending Calder Vale/Chester services to the Airport (in 2019.)

An extra Manchester-Stockport-Sheffield service was looked at but didn't get approved. I think the easiest way to add in one now would be to end the services terminating at Hazel Grove and run a Manchester-Sheffield service calling at Stockport and Hazel Grove. (Preston services could run to Macclesfield or Alderley Edge instead to make use of the wires.)

 

[swt_passenger]

Will that also affect class 800s if they were to ever run past Exeter?

I think in context 'beyond Exeter' meant towards Barnstaple only, not the main line towards Exeter or the West of England line.

 

[jimm]

If you want to see why SWT might want to run to Barnstaple (catchment area 120,000 resident plus heaven knows how many summer tourists) stand outside Barnstaple station ticket office.

Six years ago First ran all the local buses and if you wanted to go to say, Ilfracombe you had thick end of a miles walk to the bus station.

Now if you stand outside Barnstaple ticket office you will see no First buses but endless Stagecoach buses going to Bideford and Braunton every 10 minutes and Westward Ho and Ilfracombe every 20 minutes. Look up Wikipedia to see how train patronage at Barnstaple has risen since Stagecoach did this.

Stagecoach have basically run First out of North Devon. The train is now pretty well the only First operated public transport service in North Devon.

Also as of a month ago Stagecoach now run the entire bus service from Exeter to Okehampton, Halwill, Bude and Launceston.

Now consider who owns South West Trains and you have the answer as to why SWT might want to run Waterloo - Exeter services onto Barnstaple, a route that until 1964 was a full blown inter city route wth 5-6 express trains to London a day, even in midwinter. .

Sorry, but unless you are going to engage with the question of the limitations of the infrastructure on the Exeter-Barnstaple line, then anything else you have to say - especially a load of waffle about who runs buses in North Devon - is irrelevant. Stagecoach doesn't run any buses where I live, yet traffic at nearby stations has been increasing for a lot longer than the past six years - rather like most of the rest of the rail network.

Just the same as who owns SWT is irrelevant - no rail manager, whoever he or she works for, is going to risk the reliability of the Waterloo service east of Exeter - also operating on less-than-ideal infrastructure - for the sake of its trains turning into a local stopping service on a single line north of Exeter. A service on which there are far more urgent concerns, like providing enough roiling stock to cope with current demand.

Same as what happened until 1964, as a result of which company bought the line in the 1840s, is irrelevant.

And if people from North Devon want an intercity service to London, a lot of them these days seem to favour driving to Tiverton Parkway and getting on an FGW HST, which will get them into London in a nudge over three hours. Implement your fantasy SWT service and they'd be lucky to see Waterloo inside four-and-a-half. Even with major infrastructure improvement all the way from Salisbury to Barnstaple you would struggle to match the best current timings taking the train to Exeter and changing there to a Paddington train.