Using more than one ticket on the same train

[AndrewR232]

Hi,

I am based in Glasgow and planning to explore the North-West of England using a Freedom of the North West rover. Rather than find a hotel somewhere I have decided to simply travel to/from Glasgow every day I use the rover. Here is my question:

Assuming I already have the rover, if I travel on a Virgin service between GLC and EUS, with an Advance ticket from Glasgow to Carlisle, would I be allowed to remain on the same train until Preston, or another station covered by the rover?

I seem to remember reading somewhere a while ago, that you can do this providing the station where your tickets change is a booked calling point for the train you are on, but wanted to double check before I actually make any travel plans.

Thanks.

 

[button_boxer]

Yes. This is allowed under condition 19 of the National Rail Conditions of Carriage, in particular section (b).

You may use two or more tickets for one journey as long as together they cover the entire journey and one of the following applies:
(a) they are both Zonal Tickets unless special conditions prohibit their use in this way. The Ticket Seller will, if you ask, advise you whether you can use a Zonal Ticket in combination with another ticket.
(b) the train you are in calls at a station where you change from one ticket to another; or
(c) one of the tickets is a Season Ticket (which for this purpose does not include Season Tickets or travel passes issued on behalf of a passenger transport executive or local authority) or a leisure travel pass, and the other ticket(s) is/ are not.

 

[bb21]

You may remain on the same train, but you must ensure that the train departs Carlisle at a valid time.

 

[JB_B]

When combining two tickets/rovers A and B traveling on the same train swapping the ticket at X, I ask myself:

(1) Could I legitimately travel to and exit at X if I only held ticket A?

(2) If I then turned around, and held only ticket B could I legitimately go back into the station and re-board the same timetabled service and travel onwards?

If the answer is yes to both, then I believe I can use both tickets on the same train and there's no need to exit the station (nor even to leave the train).

Is that rule of thumb going to lead me into trouble?

( I'm aware that there maybe cases - zonal tickets? - where this rule would might exclude some allowable combinations but I'm just interested in avoiding wrong-side at the moment).

 

[reb0118]

A return to Lockerbie or Dumfries will cover you under the combination ticket rules. I do this myself quite a lot. This may or may not be cheaper than two advances to/from Carlisle but will be a lot more flexible.

 

[bb21]

When combining two tickets/rovers A and B traveling on the same train swapping the ticket at X, I ask myself:

(1) Could I legitimately travel to and exit at X if I only held ticket A?

(2) If I then turned around, and held only ticket B could I legitimately go back into the station and re-board the same timetabled service and travel onwards?

If the answer is yes to both, then I believe I can use both tickets on the same train and there's no need to exit the station (nor even to leave the train).

Is that rule of thumb going to lead me into trouble?

( I'm aware that there maybe cases - zonal tickets? - where this rule would might exclude some allowable combinations but I'm just interested in avoiding wrong-side at the moment).

Obviously in your example, the train stops at X, so I think you are in safe hands.

 

[JB_B]

Obviously in your example, the train stops at X, so I think you are in safe hands.

Thanks - I guess spelling it out like that might seem like overkill. The (imaginary) check of leaving and re-entering the station is there as a reminder to self about any restrictions on stopping short or starting long.

Suppose the train stops at A-B-C-D and I'm travelling with two advance purchase tickets -one valid for A to C , and the other one from B to D - both booked on the same train. In one sense I meet condition 19 (I have tickets that cover the whole journey, and my train stops at the changeover point - B or C) but wouldn't swapping tickets at B would be stopping short on the first ticket and swapping at C would be starting long on the second - would that be valid?

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Suppose the train stops at A-B-C-D and I'm travelling with two advance purchase tickets -one valid for A to C , and the other one from B to D - both booked on the same train. In one sense I meet condition 19 (I have tickets that cover the whole journey, and my train stops at the changeover point - B or C) but wouldn't swapping tickets at B would be stopping short on the first ticket and swapping at C would be starting long on the second - would that be valid?

Yes it is valid. This question was discussed in this thread : Overlapping split ticketing? and Overlapping advance tickets.

It is not actually 'stopping short', and not actually 'breaking your journey', and anyway, the condition clearly requires you to hold tickets which cover the entire journey, which they do. The conditions do not require you to hold one and only one ticket which covers the journey.
It might be helpful to recall that the possession of a valid ticket does not place any obligation on a person to take the booked journey.

 

[Tetchytyke]

A return to Lockerbie or Dumfries will cover you under the combination ticket rules. I do this myself quite a lot. This may or may not be cheaper than two advances to/from Carlisle but will be a lot more flexible.

I don't think rover tickets count as "zonal" (I've been told that before by a guard) therefore your train would need to stop at the station where you switch tickets. All the trains via Kilmarnock stop at Dumfries, but there are big gaps in service at Lockerbie (hence why there is an easement allowing weekday travel before 0845 between Lockerbie and Carlisle).

 

[maniacmartin]

Rovers that have 3 or more days validity in a 7 day period do count as season tickets or leisure travel passes under 19C though

 

[Tetchytyke]

That might be it; the FoNW rover comes as a seven day ticket or a 4 in 8. I normally get the 4 in 8.

I know I was told I couldn't use the rover on the Tyne Valley EC diversions (in combination with a Newcastle-Hexham single) as they didn't stop at Hexham.

 

[maniacmartin]

I was told I couldn't do a 19C split with a 7 day season by an EC guard on the Tyne Valley EC diversions, which is of course false.

 

[island]

When combining two tickets/rovers A and B traveling on the same train swapping the ticket at X, I ask myself:

(1) Could I legitimately travel to and exit at X if I only held ticket A?

(2) If I then turned around, and held only ticket B could I legitimately go back into the station and re-board the same timetabled service and travel onwards?

If the answer is yes to both, then I believe I can use both tickets on the same train and there's no need to exit the station (nor even to leave the train).

Is that rule of thumb going to lead me into trouble?

( I'm aware that there maybe cases - zonal tickets? - where this rule would might exclude some allowable combinations but I'm just interested in avoiding wrong-side at the moment).

This is playing it safely and covers one of the three circumstances under which you may use multiple tickets for the journey. You can also do so if one of your tickets is a season ticket or leisure travel pass and the other is not, or if both of your tickets are zonal tickets.

That might be it; the FoNW rover comes as a seven day ticket or a 4 in 8. I normally get the 4 in 8.

I know I was told I couldn't use the rover on the Tyne Valley EC diversions (in combination with a Newcastle-Hexham single) as they didn't stop at Hexham.

You were informed incorrectly.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

You may remain on the same train, but you must ensure that the train departs Carlisle at a valid time.

Freedom of the North West Rover tickets are valid after 0845 (Mon-Fri), anytime Sat, Sun or Bank Holidays.

Restriction does not apply to customer travelling from Lockerbie to Carlisle on direct services only. Customers should note that the time restriction would then apply to onward journeys from Carlisle.

 

[AndrewR232]

Thanks for the info.

Can someone confirm the following tickets:

Glasgow Central - Carlisle ADVANCE valid 0709 Hours
Freedom of North West Rover (4 days in 8) @ £70
Shotton - Flint ANYTIME DAY RETURN @ £3.20
Lockerbie - Glasgow Central OFF-PEAK SINGLE @ £10.20

...would be valid for this itinerary:

Glasgow Central dep 0709 - Carlisle arr 0829
Carlisle dep 0849 - Preston arr 0956
Preston dep 1023 - Manchester Piccadilly arr 1118
Manchester Piccadilly dep 1150 - Flint arr 1309
Flint dep 1331 - Chester arr 1349
Chester dep 1415 - Liverpool Lime Street arr 1458
Liverpool Lime Street dep 1531 - Wigan North Western arr 1621
Wigan North Western dep 1638 - Glasgow Central arr 1923

 

[bb21]

Looks fine to me.

 

[Tetchytyke]

How much is your advance? There are no time restrictions on the rover between Lockerbie and Carlisle, so a Glasgow-Lockerbie anytime return may be cheaper.

 

[kieron]

Would the combination be valid if AndrewR22 missed the 1023 from Preston and caught the 1046 instead? This map doesn't show a representation of its route through Lowton (as it's based on an old version of the Project Mapping map), and that defines the rover's validity according to NRE.

I do wonder about a "North West" ticket which covers travel to Leeds but not to Runcorn or Manchester Airport, anyway.

 

[bb21]

Yes, it is valid on the 1046.

 

[AndrewR232]

As an aside, is it possible to make seat reservations independently of buying tickets?

In other words, could I take a rover ticket into a booking office and ask to reserve seats for trains on which the rover is valid (assuming the services in question have reservations available)?

 

[bb21]

Yes, you can.

 

[island]

Yes this is fine, although may be time-consuming.

Also, there may be a fee of £5 per seat to make reservations on FGW otherwise than when you buy your ticket.

 

[AndrewR232]

Two more questions regarding the North-West Rover:

1. Can they be purchased in advance?
2. Can they be purchased at stations outwith the rover area, for example at Glasgow Central/Queen St or Edinburgh?

 

[island]

1. No reason why not.
2. Yes if the clerk knows what he's going. Note that not all ticket windows at Glasgow Central sell tickets for outside Scotland.

 

[AndrewR232]

2. Yes if the clerk knows what he's going.

Based on the difficulty some have issuing me with Central Scotland Rovers, that probably means no...

Anyway I was at Penrith yesterday and bought the FONW rover there, to start on Monday 03/03/2014. Now I just need to finalise what I'm going to use it for...

 

[D6975]

Two more questions regarding the North-West Rover:

1. Can they be purchased in advance?
2. Can they be purchased at stations outwith the rover area, for example at Glasgow Central/Queen St or Edinburgh?

I buy nearly all my rovers from Temple Meads or Parkway before I set off. NE, NW, East Mids, whatever. they sometimes have difficulty locating the rover (mainly due to the inclusion/exclusion of the word 'freedom') but have always issued what I wanted.