Very Light Rail stock ordered for passenger trials

[edwin_m]

• Abertillery to Aberbeeg (a new station would be required at Aberbeeg junction)
• Llangefni to Gaerwen (a new station would be required at Gaerwen junction)

Having to build a new station on the main line, at a location where there would be little patronage other than people changing to and from the branch, would severely impact the business case for any re-opening. As well as the extra cost, existing passengers would have their journeys extended by the extra stop, which would cause a proportion of them to stop using the train.

A vehicle that could share track with other trains, preferably without any special rules but possibly with extra train protection as required on tram-train routes, would be much more useful.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Chinnor to Princes Risborough

Would be interesting to see if that could be made to pay (or at least not be an utter money pit). The bus service didn't, but in leafy Bucks buses aren't things you use, you drive the Rangie or Jag to the station. They're for poor people and kids. Sometimes rail will do what bus won't, particularly if said bus is operated by one of the Aylesbury cowboys.

(Chinnor isn't that posh, but the principle still applies, it'll just be your Focus or Astra instead)

 

[The Planner]

Would be interesting to see if that could be made to pay (or at least not be an utter money pit). The bus service didn't, but in leafy Bucks buses aren't things you use, you drive the Rangie or Jag to the station. They're for poor people and kids. Sometimes rail will do what bus won't, particularly if said bus is operated by one of the Aylesbury cowboys.

(Chinnor isn't that posh, but the principle still applies, it'll just be your Focus or Astra instead)

Don't see how it would work at all with such slow speed lines and open crossings.

 

[zwk500]

Would be interesting to see if that could be made to pay (or at least not be an utter money pit). The bus service didn't, but in leafy Bucks buses aren't things you use, you drive the Rangie or Jag to the station. They're for poor people and kids. Sometimes rail will do what bus won't, particularly if said bus is operated by one of the Aylesbury cowboys.

(Chinnor isn't that posh, but the principle still applies, it'll just be your Focus or Astra instead)

Chinnor's quite posh, it's only 6k population yet can support a heritage railway and 3rd division rugby side. I don't see VLR working in areas where railheading by car is viable as people are going to prefer to keep driving to Prince's Risborough for a wider service provision than use a 1 (or even 2)tph shuttle that if they miss it means kicking around Prince's Risborough for long enough they could have driven directly home.

VLR might work somewhere like Bodmin, Fleetwood, or St Andrews. Holt to Sheringham maybe just maybe in the Summer, but I'd be doubtful on any of the others.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Don't see how it would work at all with such slow speed lines and open crossings.

Ormskirk to Liverpool averages a pathetic 23mph (based on comparison with the shortest route by road) yet people use it. I doubt the Stourbridge shuttle is any quicker.

I suspect though there'd be insufficient demand, people just drive to the station.

Chinnor's quite posh

It's really not. The major part of it is smallish Barratt 1970s houses very similar to West Bletchley. It's not a dump, but it's not posh, either. It's utterly average South East.

The heritage railway is mostly used by visitors (by car), not locals. That's like saying Corwen and Llangollen are upper class metropolises because of the presence of that!

VLR might work somewhere like Bodmin, Fleetwood, or St Andrews. Holt to Sheringham maybe just maybe in the Summer, but I'd be doubtful on any of the others.

The logical place to try it is Stourbridge, the PPMs are getting quite tired now.

 

[zwk500]

It's really not. The major part of it is smallish Barratt 1970s houses very similar to West Bletchley. It's not a dump, but it's not posh, either. It's utterly average South East.

Utterly average SE is now quite posh, like it or not, because the cost of moving there is very expensive.

The heritage railway is mostly used by visitors (by car), not locals. That's like saying Corwen and Llangollen are upper class metropolises because of the presence of that!

The rugby team is a bigger indicator to me, as the heritage railway doesn't have much choice about where it is. Although the argument as to exactly how posh it is isn't really relevant, because my core point was - if it's a 30 minute drive to the junction station, why would you use a 30 or 60 minute interval shuttle that forces a connection? If there were peak time direct trains to London I could see the argument for mode shift, but Chinnor is going to have a very high car accessibility rate and therefore a shuttle to the junction isn't going to compete very effectively.

The logical place to try it is Stourbridge, the PPMs are getting quite tired now.

Tbh for Stourbridge I'd go for a driverless cable-drive people mover. Luton DART-type thing.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Tbh for Stourbridge I'd go for a driverless cable-drive people mover. Luton DART-type thing.

Why not an extension of the upcoming Midland Metro to Brierley Hill? It would have way more extensive links, including to the large shopping centre at Merry Hill, and the connections from services onto the main Midland Metro line at Wednesbury.

 

[zwk500]

Why not an extension of the upcoming Midland Metro to Brierley Hill? It would have way more extensive links, including to the large shopping centre at Merry Hill, and the connections from services onto the main Midland Metro line at Wednesbury.

If it ever comes, yes. The chances of Midland Metro getting to Stourbridge Junction within the next 20 years are fairly remote though, given how slow it seems to take everything to be built. So there's time to replace the PPM with something lightweight that will last 20-30 years on its own.

 

[The Planner]

Ormskirk to Liverpool averages a pathetic 23mph (based on comparison with the shortest route by road) yet people use it. I doubt the Stourbridge shuttle is any quicker.

I suspect though there'd be insufficient demand, people just drive to the station.

That is already an open heavy rail system though that can be upgraded if its felt it deserves the cash. Heritage railways are a different kettle of fish.

 

[AlastairFraser]

If it ever comes, yes. The chances of Midland Metro getting to Stourbridge Junction within the next 20 years are fairly remote though, given how slow it seems to take everything to be built. So there's time to replace the PPM with something lightweight that will last 20-30 years on its own.

Perhaps, although I'm sceptical that the shuttle can justify another standalone investment.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Perhaps, although I'm sceptical that the shuttle can justify another standalone investment.

If it does need something to replace it, then a couple of toiletless 153s would be nearly free, I suppose.

But would Revolution VLR provide their stock for free in return for the testbed?

 

[AlastairFraser]

If it does need something to replace it, then a couple of toiletless 153s would be nearly free, I suppose.

But would Revolution VLR provide their stock for free in return for the testbed?

I think they'd opt for a line reopening for the better publicity maybe.
@zwk500 has a point about automation if you wanted to reduce ongoing operating costs.

 

[Bletchleyite]

@zwk500 has a point about automation if you wanted to reduce ongoing operating costs.

If it's going to stay like it is forever then converting it to an airport style automated people mover would probably be the thing to do, but the thing is it probably isn't. And it's a free testbed, basically, just as it was for Parry.

 

[AlastairFraser]

If it's going to stay like it is forever then converting it to an airport style automated people mover would probably be the thing to do, but the thing is it probably isn't. And it's a free testbed, basically, just as it was for Parry.

A free testbed that could better be used elsewhere surely? The Class 139s aren't running out of time quite yet.

 

[zwk500]

If it's going to stay like it is forever then converting it to an airport style automated people mover would probably be the thing to do, but the thing is it probably isn't. And it's a free testbed, basically, just as it was for Parry.

Let's be realistic. In the current and likely future medium term economic and political environment it is unlikely to change substantively from it's current status of an isolated shuttle. It would not provide a particularly helpful testbed for the VLR concept as it's just up the hill and down again - the Parry experience shows Stourbridge doesn't translate into sales. I don't see why the VLR people would be too interested in Stourbridge beyond an initial publicity run.

 

[HSTEd]

Let's be realistic. In the current and likely future medium term economic and political environment it is unlikely to change substantively from it's current status of an isolated shuttle. It would not provide a particularly helpful testbed for the VLR concept as it's just up the hill and down again - the Parry experience shows Stourbridge doesn't translate into sales. I don't see why the VLR people would be too interested in Stourbridge beyond an initial publicity run.

Well the alternatives are likely that they run the testbed(s) at Stourbridge and earn money, or leave them rusting in a yard somewhere and earn nothing.

They can provide two units to Stourbridge and obtain money, or provide no units to Stourbridge and obtain no money.

 

[zwk500]

Well the alternatives are likely that they run the testbed(s) at Stourbridge and earn money, or leave them rusting in a yard somewhere and earn nothing.

They can provide two units to Stourbridge and obtain money, or provide no units to Stourbridge and obtain no money.

A critical question then is - from whom? and will they judge that inviting VLR to provide the units is good value, or will they look at other alternatives.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Well the alternatives are likely that they run the testbed(s) at Stourbridge and earn money, or leave them rusting in a yard somewhere and earn nothing.

They can provide two units to Stourbridge and obtain money, or provide no units to Stourbridge and obtain no money.

The point is that other routes could be better for them - e.g. Oswestry to Gobowen, and elicit demand for more units from politicians elsewhere interested in reopenings of disused branch lines.

 

[daodao]

The point is that other routes could be better for them - e.g. Oswestry to Gobowen, and elicit demand for more units from politicians elsewhere interested in reopenings of disused branch lines.

Could they not do both? Send 2 of the new stock to Stourbridge to replace the class 139 PPMs and the other, with the original demonstrator, to Gobowen, to reopen the Oswestry-Gobowen line. Both services are not too far from the manufacturer's base near Telford in case of any maintenance issues.

Having to build a new station on the main line, at a location where there would be little patronage other than people changing to and from the branch, would severely impact the business case for any re-opening. As well as the extra cost, existing passengers would have their journeys extended by the extra stop, which would cause a proportion of them to stop using the train.

A vehicle that could share track with other trains, preferably without any special rules but possibly with extra train protection as required on tram-train routes, would be much more useful.

I don't disagree - I merely listed some possible lines where these new very light rail vehicles might be useful. My own preferences would be to use then to re-equip the Stourbridge branch and to re-open the Oswestry-Gobowen line.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Could they not do both? Send 2 of the new stock to Stourbridge to replace the class 139 PPMs and the other, with the original demonstrator, to Gobowen, to reopen the Oswestry-Gobowen line. Both services are not too far from the manufacturer's base near Telford in case of any maintenance issues.

I'm not sure Stourbridge would justify the investment - the Cl139 is perfectly fine for the moment.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm not sure Stourbridge would justify the investment - the Cl139 is perfectly fine for the moment.

The 139s are rapidly wearing out, WMT have stated in the past that they are actively looking for what might be next.

 

[Tony2]

I’m told the original 2021 vehicle was moved to a preserved railway but can’t find any more information, does anyone know where it is now?

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I’m told the original 2021 vehicle was moved to a preserved railway but can’t find any more information, does anyone know where it is now?

It's at Dudley - the VLR base, actually - and perhaps ironically...


Edited to add: Oh, sorry - you mean the VLR prototype; I misread the date and was thinking of the Parry prototype.

 

[BogiePicker]

I also wonder whether the low absolute weight, rather than just the low axle weight, could help it on some new-builds hitherto thought more suitable for trams, now that housing development etc has killed off a lot of Beeching'd routes. Specifically, I'm wondering about the sort of gradients that this thing could manage. Presumably it could also be made to work fairly tight curvatures as well.

 

[AlastairFraser]

The 139s are rapidly wearing out, WMT have stated in the past that they are actively looking for what might be next.

Time to speed up tram conversion then....

 

[43096]

The 139s are rapidly wearing out, WMT have stated in the past that they are actively looking for what might be next.

If the Marston Vale is anything to go by, it’ll go back to 153s!

 

[Tony2]

It's at Dudley - the VLR base, actually - and perhaps ironically...


Edited to add: Oh, sorry - you mean the VLR prototype; I misread the date and was thinking of the Parry prototype.

Yes, it’s the VLR prototype I’m interested in, I should have made that clear.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Utterly average SE is now quite posh, like it or not

I dare you to take a walk through Aldershot or Farnborough and then double-down on that statement.

 

[HSTEd]

I wonder what the quote would come out like for a cable hauled airport-type people mover..... it would probably have much lower operating costs than most other solutions.

That is likely what VLR would be competing with in the context of Stourbridge.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I wonder what the quote would come out like for a cable hauled airport-type people mover..... it would probably have much lower operating costs than most other solutions.

That is likely what VLR would be competing with in the context of Stourbridge.

The trouble with doing that is that it might need ripping out within 20 years to put a tramway down it. That has the same sort of issue in terms of spreading the cost as options like building a north to west curve and having a direct Birmingham service (there is land that could be used to do that, it's not built on).

I suspect a lifespan of far longer is necessary to get back the high cost of installing something like that against the savings in only having to pay a cheap security guard to keep an eye on it rather than a railway driver and guard (even if they are a bit cheaper than mainline ones).

I wonder out of interest what the planned lifetime of the sort-of-comparable Luton Airport shuttle thing is?