Virgin to Launch London - Shrewsbury service?

[dave_wm]

According to this weeks Sutton Coldfield Observer, Virgin West Coast want to introduce a new service from London Euston to Shrewsbury, calling at Nuneaton, Coleshill Parkway, running via Sutton Park to Walsall, Wolverhampton, Telford Central and Shrewsbury. It could be introduced in December this year.

Are Virgin that bitter that as soon as they realise Wrexham and Shropshire have a passenger base and are making a profit they have to take over!?!

I suppose this service would use Voyagers.

Any thoughts?

 

[Donny Dave]

It's not Shrewsbury they want to goto, but Wrexham.

Their plan is to extend a couple of Chester services a day to Wrexham.

 

[90019]

Are Virgin that bitter that as soon as they realise Wrexham and Shropshire have a passenger base and are making a profit they have to take over!?!

I think we all know the answer to that one.

 

[87015]

It's not Shrewsbury they want to goto, but Wrexham.

Their plan is to extend a couple of Chester services a day to Wrexham.

They are already doing that...

 

[Techniquest]

Indeed, with the 0700 Wrexham General to London Euston and a working back about the start of the evening peak off Euston. I forget the time of that one, but gets back to Wrexham for around 2030 if memory of the timetable serves well.

I am surprised a tad they've decided to run up to Shrewsbury now, especially via Sutton Park. Nevertheless, it could be interesting to see how it plays out.

I do however wonder upon whether there is sufficient capacity within the fleet that VWC use to operate such a service and if so, why isn't it being used currently to combat overcrowding? Even if it is currently, removing it to have the 221 trundle along the Midlands to reach already well-served towns doesn't sound at all sensible.

If this is pulled off, I'd expect a lot of moaning from the norms to start after they're forced to cram into smaller trains. I'm expecting too a lot of anti-Virgin froth too. Yes I've become less and less a fan of Virgin since I became anti-plastic, but some of the anti-Virgin-ness seen from enthusiasts boggles the mind.

 

[me123]

Can't really moan at the company for wanting to earn money, although "Stealing" someone else's route might not be the best way to go about it, when has Virgin ever been known to play fair?

 

[tbtc]

In an ideal world, we could have an hourly service from London to Shrewsbury, extending every two hours to Wrexham and a few times a day to the Cambrian Coast, with one operator.

Instead, we'll maybe have three operators running services to Shrewsbury, with two London terminals and thousands of confused passengers...

 

[ukrob]

It is great the way people always insist that there should be more services and more choice. And then moan when it is proposed.

 

[daccer]

It could be argued that it isnt a totally level playing field with Virgin. Moderation of Competition means they are protected on their core routes....obviously WSMR dont get the same protection being open access. i am sure cynics might say that Virgin have seen the demand that WSMR have managed to generate on the Wrexham-London route and want to get their little piggy hands on some of it.

I should think WSMR are probably wondering why they are having to trundle across backwaters to London in four hours when there was a much faster route available all the time just waiting for those nice men at Virgin to utilise it. Whoever negotiated Virgins franchise for them did a hell of a job - no open access on the WCML!!!

Are the Pendolinos that good a train that the Govt were prepared to sell their souls to get them on the network or was it more a case of needing a high profile business leader like Branson involved in the railways to validate the franchise system. He was truly gobsmacked when they lost XC, I think he might have been led to believe he was untouchable by the powers that be.

 

[Techniquest]

Well in my eyes Virgin will hardly be flying along going via Sutton Park! Wolverhampton to Nuneaton is not exactly a short distance and takes a while on a normal service train (around an hour? Seemed about that if not a little more on the Pendolini drags of summer 2007), going up to Walsall first then cruising/crawling along via Sutton Park as well must take a while! Then there's the heavy restriction (20mph IIRC) of speed on Nuneaton Abbey Curve. I suspect it could take at least 90 minutes to do Wolverhampton to Nuneaton on the route they have provided.

Wolverhampton to Wrexham and Chester is a long and, quite frankly boring trek too (Shrewsbury to Gobowen, one of THE most boring treks I've ever suffered) so would take a while. Granted, they'll be able to storm along the WCML when they eventually reach it, but for the average punter it's going to be just as quick and a helluva lot cheaper to travel with London Marylebone.

Not going to affect most people's decisions like, but to arrive into the reasonably pleasant to travel at Marylebone with a loco-hauled WSMR service is much more attractive to me then arriving into the back door to hell (aka London Euston) off a 221. Plus there's the uber comfortable seats of the MK3s with WSMR compared to the sore back-inducing 221s...Easy choice for me, although I'd consider doing the Virgin one there and back for Sutton Park if it happens for the track.

 

[The Planner]

It was Crewe - Nantwich - Whitchurch - Wem - Shrewsbury -Telford - Wellington - Wolves - Walsall - Coleshill - Nuneaton - Euston when it was orignally proposed. Depending on pathing through the West Mids and down the WCML, it will beat a WSMR from Shrewsbury to London. Its 221 based and there is a spare set to do this alledgedly.

If the Wolves - Shrewsbury line speeds go up to 90mph, which they are planned to, then WSMR could be in trouble. They will be DMU differential and this service would be in an ideal position to take advantage.

 

[Techniquest]

Interesting original plan there.

A good point that about the linespeeds, although I still say that if you tell someone you can go to London for (say) £30 but only on certain trains or £60 for much more flexibility, then they're willing to go for the cheaper option. Especially if the Virgin option in this case is considerably more and only once a day.

 

[Failed Unit]

It was Crewe - Nantwich - Whitchurch - Wem - Shrewsbury -Telford - Wellington - Wolves - Walsall - Coleshill - Nuneaton - Euston when it was orignally proposed. Depending on pathing through the West Mids and down the WCML, it will beat a WSMR from Shrewsbury to London. Its 221 based and there is a spare set to do this alledgedly.

If the Wolves - Shrewsbury line speeds go up to 90mph, which they are planned to, then WSMR could be in trouble. They will be DMU differential and this service would be in an ideal position to take advantage.

Can the voyagers use DMU speeds, I thought the were too heavy like the 185's are the South Pennie Route (among others). The 222's can't take advantage of DMU speeds on Norwich-Liverpool.

Mixed feelings on this one, I don't see any reason in principle why a franchise operator should not be allowed to take on a open access operator and if National Express took on Hull trains or Grand Piano then all is fair in love and war. At the moment however I think Virgin should not be allowed to until the protection of competition on the WCML expires in 2012 (I think). At the moment it seems like Virgin want their cake and eat it. I understand the objected to Southern operating to Milton Keynes as it would extract revenue from them. Thankfully the ORR told them to take a hike. Once the WCML is open access then let Virgin run where they like as well!

I wonder why they don't drag services from Wolves with a 57 at the ends of the days when the pendo's are not needed for return workings. Unless they think demand exists between Nuneaton and Wolves.

 

[The Planner]

Can the voyagers use DMU speeds, I thought the were too heavy like the 185's are the South Pennie Route (among others). The 222's can take advantage of DMU speeds on Norwich-Liverpool.

Rule book quotes that only 185s are too fat and heavy to use differentials, 221s are fine for DMU speeds.

I wonder why they don't drag services from Wolves with a 57 at the ends of the days when the pendo's are not needed for return workings. Unless they think demand exists between Nuneaton and Wolves.

57s wouldnt keep to the same speeds and times as a 221 and you would have big issues with platform lengths with a pendo. The plan as it stands has problems at Wem and Whitchurch with platform lengths.

It will go down well at Walsall and Coleshill. I would imagine Walsall to bite the hand off someone offering a direct London service. Coleshill will go down well too, it saves the drive and price of parking at International.

 

[Daimler]

If this goes through I will be outraged - this is pure anti-competitive behaviour on the part of Virgin - simply trying to push out another company that could hardly be called a rival. I suppose I should expect nothing more...

If this happens, I do hope WSMR will try and push for use of the WCML down to London. Unlikely, but we can hope...

 

[ukrob]

If this goes through I will be outraged - this is pure anti-competitive behaviour on the part of Virgin - simply trying to push out another company that could hardly be called a rival. I suppose I should expect nothing more...

If this happens, I do hope WSMR will try and push for use of the WCML down to London. Unlikely, but we can hope...

So basically you are saying that a TOC shouldn't be allowed to offer competing services? Sounds like THAT is anti-competitive to me.

I don't see why WSMR should be protected, they are a business after all.

 

[matt]

So basically you are saying that a TOC shouldn't be allowed to offer competing services? Sounds like THAT is anti-competitive to me.

I don't see why WSMR should be protected, they are a business after all.

But thats the point WSMR arn't allowed to offer a competing service over the same route due the Virgin franchise hence why the Wolverhampton WSMR stop is set-down only south and pick-up only north

 

[ukrob]

But thats the point WSMR arn't allowed to offer a competing service over the same route due the Virgin franchise hence why the Wolverhampton WSMR stop is set-down only south and pick-up only north

That is a fair point.

It is just frustrating that people bang on about lack of choice, lack of services, yet they also complain when extra services from another provider are talked about. I can't help but feel that if the brand name wasn't Virgin that people wouldn't have such a problem with this proposal.

 

[87015]

That is a fair point.

It is just frustrating that people bang on about lack of choice, lack of services, yet they also complain when extra services from another provider are talked about. I can't help but feel that if the brand name wasn't Virgin that people wouldn't have such a problem with this proposal.

So Virgin oppose all competitive services then when one finally gets in and is doing well they take measures to trump it and we are supposed to be impressed with their conduct?

You can explain to me what right Virgin had to oppose Wembley Central - Bletchley / M.Keynes services then as they have succesfully seen off despite being a potentially useful service for passengers which Virgin have never even thought about providing. London Midland had no objections.

 

[ukrob]

So Virgin oppose all competitive services then when one finally gets in and is doing well they take measures to trump it and we are supposed to be impressed with their conduct?

Almost.

Virgin legally have to oppose.

You can explain to me what right Virgin had to oppose Wembley Central - Bletchley / M.Keynes services then as they have succesfully seen off despite being a potentially useful service for passengers which Virgin have never even thought about providing. London Midland had no objections.

I don't have to explain anything to you.

As I just said they MUST oppose, that is 'what right' they had.

 

[87015]

Almost.
Virgin legally have to oppose.

Quality railway system then.

I don't have to explain anything to you.

You want less anti-virgin posts it might be a start to explain why they objected to that.

 

[ukrob]

Quality railway system then.

You want less anti-virgin posts it might be a start to explain why they objected to that.

I did - I was editing my post as you made yours - apologies.

 

[tbtc]

If this goes through I will be outraged - this is pure anti-competitive behaviour on the part of Virgin - simply trying to push out another company that could hardly be called a rival. I suppose I should expect nothing more...

What else are Virgin supposed to do? Encourage other Open Access operators to spring up and take their business?

Of course Virgin should try to protect their business, that's a no brainer. However, it's up to the authorities (rail regulator/ DaFT/ network rail) to decide whether there are suitable paths for this and whether it should go ahead.

The issue of spare voyagers is a good one though - would this only be if Virgin got new pendilinos (to replace the voyagers running on Euston - Lancaster etc runs)?

The interesting contrast is that GNER/ NXEC haven't tried to "compete" with Hull Trains or Grand Central (apart from diverting the one Hull service a day via Selby) - they've concentrated on their "main line" services. However, Virgin have been quick to compete at the Wrexham end of W&S - now they are looking at the Shrewsbury end too...

 

[Phoenix]

I dunno about all this really I mean yes more services to my local area are great and being able to do coleshill parkway to London saves me time and money.
Problem is it all seems very copycat I mean alright it's defiantly competitive but really do people wish to stop using such companies as WSMR and chiltern who I think offer somewhat better prices albeit slightly less convenient due to it taking longer to reach the capital.
And also it's quite interesting that virgin will break the Sutton park silence and send passenger trains down there and give a Coleshill-Wasall connection.
The first train they send down there is defiantly going to be full with bashers needing required track.

 

[ukrob]

I dunno about all this really I mean yes more services to my local area are great

That is all that matters - it doesn't make an ounce of difference who runs them.

That wasn't aimed at Phoenix - it is just illustrating a point

 

[Phoenix]

That is all that matters - it doesn't make an ounce of difference who runs them.

That wasn't aimed at Phoenix - it is just illustrating a point

No fair enough mate no offense taken
The problem with my statement is the fact people like me and various people i know would only use this service to get between coleshill and wasall and maybe Nuneaton and coleshill as it's slightly quicker.
The amount of people who will pick up at coleshill to do the full leg isn't going to be big in any way as the station see not as much use as one would like to think and that's because the people of the area are quite simple and have to hear it from word of mouth over the fence before actually trying out the scary new station.

 

[The Planner]

The amount of people who will pick up at coleshill to do the full leg isn't going to be big in any way as the station see not as much use as one would like to think and that's because the people of the area are quite simple and have to hear it from word of mouth over the fence before actually trying out the scary new station.

Oh behave, house values in Coleshill have rocketed purely on the basis of its convenience to the M6, M42 and Birmingham Int and airport. Coleshill Parkway as is has no services that benefit London users. Stick in a service that can provide it and people will start to use it. The only disadvantage Coleshill station has is that its nowhere near the town centre. Its actual catchment area is pretty massive.

 

[Phoenix]

Oh behave, house values in Coleshill have rocketed purely on the basis of its convenience to the M6, M42 and Birmingham Int and airport. Coleshill Parkway as is has no services that benefit London users. Stick in a service that can provide it and people will start to use it. The only disadvantage Coleshill station has is that its nowhere near the town centre. Its actual catchment area is pretty massive.

Lol I do stick to my statement about them being simple okay maybe I should be a little more kind about my wording.
But the thing is from coleshill you have.

The 757 Sutton-Water Orton-Coleshill-Birmingham International
The 90 Birmingham-Coleshill-Water Orton-Birmingham
Plus various buses to the shire as I call it.

But despite the great connections to this station and the vast carpark also the clean facilities and finally the copeous amounts of press I still have people ask me if the place is open.
The reason being is that it isn't smack bang in the middle of the town (as such) but is less than a mile away and you can get the bus from all the out lying areas to the station).

 

[Daimler]

So basically you are saying that a TOC shouldn't be allowed to offer competing services? Sounds like THAT is anti-competitive to me.

I don't see why WSMR should be protected, they are a business after all.

Oh I agree. Any kind of protection is anti-competitive. However, once protection for certain firms is instigated (i.e. Virgin), then in order to maintain any pretence of 'fairness' between companies each company must be permitted to have a secure section - meaning that whatever happens, competition is stifled.

Now, if WSMR were permitted to stop and Wolverhampton and possibly run down through New Street (stop there) and Coventry (there too) - and even operate down the West Coast route, then we'd see proper competition. Wouldn't Virgin love that?

 

[The Planner]

Now, if WSMR were permitted to stop and Wolverhampton and possibly run down through New Street (stop there) and Coventry (there too) - and even operate down the West Coast route, then we'd see proper competition. Wouldn't Virgin love that?

In the grand scheme of things, they probably wouldnt be too bothered as the WSMR trains would have to be pathed slow line via Northampton as they couldnt use EPS speeds.