Vivarail 373s?

[Doctor Fegg]

Yes, you did read that right. Posted on a cycling forum:

A friend of mine has a business refurbishing trains* and he will be taking the existing Eurostar rolling stock on a steady basis from about the Spring of next year - refurbishing/modifying and then they are going to another train operator - the new Eurostar stuff will be phased in over, I think, about 8 or 9 months)

* he's currently rebuilding ex London tube carriages to be re-used by one of the rail companies in the N of England.

There's presumably some sort of Chinese whispers going on here as it clearly won't be all the 373s. But it's been suggested here beforehand that some of them will be surplus to requirements when the 374 fleet is complete. And then there's the old chestnut of the North of London sets, mentioned here last year:

Word from an SNCF contact is that the three spare 32xx are already scrapped but the 33xx NoL sets are going to be repatriated to the UK after some modifications.

 

[tbtc]

Bring on the threads about Vivarail trying to tart up the 442s too...

Interesting idea (though I can't comment on the veracity) - it's encouraging if companies want to try to find creative ways of using "redundant" stock - we all complain about risk-averse ROSCOs, so should be in favour of an organisation trying to come up with alternatives - a bit of Blue Cheese Thinking (as Count Arthur Strong would have it...).

373s would require a bit of infrastructure improvements to allow them to run on some lines (e.g. the swing at Gateshead, the power supplies in a few places), but if I were putting together an Open Access application for a "fast" London - Edinburgh service then I'd at least give Vivarail a call to enquire... there's maybe some life left in these twenty two year old trains - no harm in trying.

The D78s/ 230s fit a niche (given the large number of routes with average speeds well below 60mph), and there's maybe a niche for 373s somewhere too - though most of the things that come to mind are ECML related - and we know there'll be plenty of IEPs there before long - maybe in place of the "half sized" 225 rakes proposed by Virgin?

Could be something, could be nothing, but worth a punt, just like the D78s are IMHO.

 

[glbotu]

I'd be surprised if it was for the UK market, largely because we don't have a shortage of LDHS stock, especially given the innumerable number of Hitachi SETs that are about to be unleashed (with BiMode 800s, Electric 801s and SuperBiMode 802s). They couldn't do anything else. Unless they plan a full re-tractioning to keep time on HS2, I can't see any other use for them in the UK. Their power draw is also enormous, which makes them pretty inconvenient for running off any non-High Speed line.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Eurostar will probably cannibalize unneeded 373s for their spare parts (would many of the Eurostar spare parts be any good on any SNCF TGVs?)

 

[edwin_m]

Nobody said it had to be in the UK...

 

[Townsend Hook]

Handy stock for the 'Transmanche Metro', perhaps?

 

[asylumxl]

Handy stock for the 'Transmanche Metro', perhaps?

Unfortunately it won't be a very metro like service if everyone has to go through border controls.

 

[pemma]

I'm suspicious of the person who's claiming they work for the company refurbishing old underground trains, given there's a factual error in their post. No agreement has been signed to use old underground trains (not technically tube trains) in the North of England, although it's been agreed that FGW will take on one unit to trial. With it being rumoured that the minimum 120 new carriage order is going to go to either Stadler or CAF it would be possibly more true for someone working for CAF to claim they will be building trains for the next Northern franchise.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

Again, I think that's just Chinese whispers: you could insert the word "hopefully" before "to be reused".

 

[bluenoxid]

Silly question but could they do Norwich to London?

 

[jopsuk]

it's been suggested before. It's a very silly idea on the following points:
1: Power. The GEML would grind to a half as a 373 took power to climb out of Liverpool Street
2: Capacity. A GE Intercity set of 90+9 mark 3s +DVT is as long as the terminals and depots can cope with, at 245 metres. The Eurostars have long power cars and lose further capacity to the powered end cars, which are an integral part of the traction system. The maximum train length would be two power cars, two powered intermediates and eight intermediates.
So, lets say 1 Standard powered (48 seats), six Standard (56 each), two First (39 seats each) and 1 First Powered (say 33 seats). This potential train has 384 Standard class, 111 1st class seats.

It also has no catering or disabled facilities or guards van. To add those would take away even more seats. So you'd have a train capable of 186mph operating on a 100mph railway, sucking up too much power, with tiny seating capacity and potential clearance issues.

 

[tjlrailblue]

St Pancras to Corby???!!!

What international operators might waft them?

 

[NSEFAN]

Like the 442s, the 373s were built for a particular purpose. Finding other work for them once they've been superseded will be a challenge. We will soon have plenty of intercity rolling stock thanks to Hitachi. Obtaining EMUs is also not too problematic. It's DMUs for local and regional services that we need most right now!

 

[RichmondCommu]

OK, here's an idea. Why not drag the 373's using class 60's? They could be used on the Hope Valley stoppers which would see an end to the use of Pacers on that service. Boom!

 

[Haydn1971]

Their power draw is also enormous, which makes them pretty inconvenient for running off any non-High Speed line.

Presumably the huge power draw is at 180mph ? That's going to be significantly less at 110-125mph
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Also, which routes did the North of London sets operate on ? If they ran previously I'd expect there to be little preventing reuse on those same routes ?

 

[RichmondCommu]

Also, which routes did the North of London sets operate on ? If they ran previously I'd expect there to be little preventing reuse on those same routes ?

Haydn, from what I can remember they ran on the Kings Cross - Leeds services.

 

[Haydn1971]

And another thing... Driving cars pull a powered middle car, followed by a load of trailer cars - presumably you would need to reuse trailer car 8&9 as they have the "joint" but could the powered middle car 2&15 be dispensed with ? Two driving cars with six trailer cars could easily fit at Manchester Oxford Road, then fudge the paths for a TPE 373 Pocket Rocket then run more doubled up 350's on the commuter services from say Preston ?

 

[sidmouth]

The NoL sets previously ran Kings Cross - Leeds (and I think York too) under the White Rose banner, but were limited to 110 mph due to power supply issues.

 

[Haydn1971]

The NoL sets previously ran Kings Cross - Leeds (and I think York too) under the White Rose banner, but were limited to 110 mph due to power supply issues.

But they were running with 16 cars !

 

[NSEFAN]

And another thing... Driving cars pull a powered middle car, followed by a load of trailer cars - presumably you would need to reuse trailer car 8&9 as they have the "joint" but could the powered middle car 2&15 be dispensed with ? Two driving cars with six trailer cars could easily fit at Manchester Oxford Road, then fudge the paths for a TPE 373 Pocket Rocket then run more doubled up 350's on the commuter services from say Preston ?

That might work, the TPE route from Manchester - Scotland is sort-of intercity, although how much does it serve as a commuter service as it gets closer to Manchester? Would the door layout of the 373s be suitable compared to that of the 350s?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

When they ran to Leeds, they could have fitted entirely in platform 8 (the first through platform to the left of the ticket gates) but in my experience they tended to get routed into 7, which is a bay that can hold a 2+9 HST or Mk4 set but the 373s overhung and blocked access to at least P6 and possibly others too. Doing that with today's timetable would be a complete non-starter even if you could find 110mph paths on the ECML.
If HS2 was finished tomorrow they'd be ideal as 'classic compatible' sets rather than building expensive and complicated new sets... But putting them in warm store for a decade until they're needed would be ridiculous!

 

[pemma]

That might work, the TPE route from Manchester - Scotland is sort-of intercity, although how much does it serve as a commuter service as it gets closer to Manchester? Would the door layout of the 373s be suitable compared to that of the 350s?

Note that Desiros replaced Voyagers on Manchester to Scotland services and Scottish services have had stops removed since TPE started running the service.

 

[59CosG95]

[Wibble] Replace Vomitors on Manc/Bournemouth XC service, with loco haulage between Brum and Basingstoke! (Oxford when the wires are done) [/Wibble]

 

[Ash Bridge]

Is my memory playing up or were the 373s later allowed to operate on the ECML at 125mph at least on certain stretches of the route?

 

[RichmondCommu]

[Wibble] Replace Vomitors on Manc/Bournemouth XC service, with loco haulage between Brum and Basingstoke! (Oxford when the wires are done) [/Wibble]

Whats a Vomitor?

 

[fairysdad]

Whats a Vomitor?

A pointlessly childish name for the Voyagers.

 

[asylumxl]

Lease them to RENFE AVE or Deutsch Bahn to run international services. That way the French can't throw their toys out the pram about the trains not being safe for use in the Chunnel.

 

[route:oxford]

Is my memory playing up or were the 373s later allowed to operate on the ECML at 125mph at least on certain stretches of the route?

Upgrades were made to the power-supplies yes. The old "110mph max" still gets trotted out though.

 

[Phlip]

Is my memory playing up or were the 373s later allowed to operate on the ECML at 125mph at least on certain stretches of the route?

I'll delurk and brave the moderators as I've seen this 110 mph limit said too many times on here now...

They were originally limited to 110 mph throughout when they ran to York. By the time they were cleared to Leeds they were able to run at 125 mph between Kings Cross and Grantham and north of Doncater to York.

There are timings recorded by the RPS that confirm this as well as evidence given to the Transport Select Committee which is available online. Happy Googling.

 

[Ash Bridge]

Upgrades were made to the power-supplies yes. The old "110mph max" still gets trotted out though.

I'll delurk and brave the moderators as I've seen this 110 mph limit said too many times on here now...

They were originally limited to 110 mph throughout when they ran to York. By the time they were cleared to Leeds they were able to run at 125 mph between Kings Cross and Grantham and north of Doncater to York.

There are timings recorded by the RPS that confirm this as well as evidence given to the Transport Select Committee which is available online. Happy Googling.

Thanks for that, thought I recalled they had performed some upgrading of the power supplies to enable this but wasn't totally certain.