Vivarail to enter administration

[Bletchleyite]

I've heard that there are no spare parts available now so if one needs parts then it might be taken out of service?

Parts can always be fabricated by a decent engineering shop. Merseyrail have been doing this for 507/508s for a while now.

Plus they've got 5 units and require 2 in service, so there's plenty of scope to take parts off what they have.

 

[Spirit555]

Parts can always be fabricated by a decent engineering shop. Merseyrail have been doing this for 507/508s for a while now.

Plus they've got 5 units and require 2 in service, so there's plenty of scope to take parts off what they have.

LNWR only have 3 units, 230003 to 230005

 

[Bletchleyite]

LNWR only have 3 units, 230003 to 230005

I was replying to a post discussing what might happen on the Isle of Wight. They have five units but only really need two in service at any given time.

 

[ExRes]

If run round facilities are available at each end I suppose a 31 plus one Mark 1 or 2 carriage could be used.

I think that's a non starter and a half, there's only one mainline 31 in existence

 

[zwk500]

I was replying to a post discussing what might happen on the Isle of Wight. They have five units but only really need two in service at any given time.

Although isn't 5 units based on double length plus 1 spare, so robbing peter to pay Paul is a short term measure?

I think that's a non starter and a half, there's only one mainline 31 in existence

Could get LSL or WC to lend their 37 though. Might be a bit overkill though. Maybe GBRf can lend a 73, it wouldn't even need to be a /9. (Notwithstanding my earlier point re lack of RR facility at Bedford Midland.)

 

[Bletchleyite]

Although isn't 5 units based on double length plus 1 spare, so robbing peter to pay Paul is a short term measure?

Correct, but it would allow the units to remain in service while some more parts could be fabricated, so there's no reason they should end up in disuse over winter when 2-car is more than enough.

They're traditional heavy engineering other than the brand new traction package for which the manufacturer can presumably supply spares.

 

[507020]

Vivarail have now formally confirmed today they have entered administration. Presumably there will be some kind of press release soon but the Marston Vale line service has now been suspended too.

I thought they entered administration the other day?

Firstly I hope the jobs of the guys who work at Bletchley are saved. That is most important in all of this.

So are the guys at Ryde not important in all this?

23/24m units don't fit, which is the whole reason they even exist.

A couple of 150s or 153s are the only option in terms of other existing stock, though it'd take a while to train the Bletchley crews back up on them. Or long term bustitution, which in the present climate may be preferred...

Well how on Earth are they going to manage once the line is part of East-West Rail with a limitation like that?

SWR do their own maintenance. I think they organised things on the assumption the trains were going to be there for many years.

That’s good news at least. Hopefully they survive as a demonstration of what Vivarail was, just at the right time to replace

Parts can always be fabricated by a decent engineering shop. Merseyrail have been doing this for 507/508s for a while now.

Plus they've got 5 units and require 2 in service, so there's plenty of scope to take parts off what they have.

Any idea where this decent engineering shop is?

 

[zwk500]

I thought they entered administration the other day?

The gave notice, which is different from formally appointing administrators

So are the guys at Ryde not important in all this?

Their jobs are pretty safe.

Well how on Earth are they going to manage once the line is part of East-West Rail with a limitation like that?

EWR will have it's own stock, of course

Any idea where this decent engineering shop is?

Plenty of them up and down the country, fulfilling various general industry contracts with a fair amount of Heritage railway work on the side as well.

 

[507020]

EWR will have it's own stock, of course

But how will it fit on the same infrastructure? I am aware that it will need to be upgraded, in which case it is only a short term issue.

Plenty of them up and down the country, fulfilling various general industry contracts with a fair amount of Heritage railway work on the side as well.

That sounds decently interesting.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I've done a bit of research on platform lengths, signal positions and unit clearances on the Marston Vale, and I was VERY surprised at the results unless I'm being thick and missing something (not being used to reading Sectional Appendices) - another thread for further discussion here:

Alternative solutions for the Marston Vale Line

Thought I would chuck this in to avoid too much speculation in the main thread. Obviously "buses" are one option, but this is to look at other options. As a start, I've found the relevant Sectional Appendices...

www.railforums.co.uk

In short, one platform, the Bletchley bound platform at Kempston Hardwick, a very quiet station, seems to be an issue for 2x153 or a 156, and clearing 172s or 196s doesn't look hard at all provided SDO or local door is acceptable at a few stations.

 

[Zontar]

Interesting comments from vivarail MD....wonder which toc he is referring to?

 

[Ladder23]

Not surprised I also feel for anyone who relied on the marston vale line, when I worked on that route it was delays and cancellations non stop.

TBH I am surprised they have lasted this long given the number of units actually delivered.

As @Nicholas Lewis says in post two Adrian Shooter had a vision. However the Marston Vale units and other failures including fires tarnished their reputation so e.g. Class 230 never went into service Leamington - Nuneaton. The DC electric Isle of Wight units ought to have been straightforward but again issues so additional cost and those who were watching will have had second thoughts.

Add in the 769 issues and operators now see too much risk of rebuild so choose new.

100% my thoughts

 

[507020]

Interesting comments from vivarail MD....wonder which toc he is referring to?

Well not WMT, SWR, TfW or GWR. Could it possibly have been Northern given the “London cast offs” line?

 

[zwk500]

Interesting comments from vivarail MD....wonder which toc he is referring to?

'Industry player' is not necessarily a TOC.

 

[PG]

Interesting comments from vivarail MD....wonder which toc he is referring to?

The phrase used is "industry player" so not necessarily a TOC ?

 

[Silverlinky]

Interesting comments from vivarail MD....wonder which toc he is referring to?

I'd guess that by the earlier comments about "our customers proudly operating our trains and tech" the later comment was not aimed at a TOC

 

[edwin_m]

When Railtrack went into administration it was a special "railway administration" that allowed operations to continue. I'm rather surprised this wasn't what happened to Vivarail.

 

[Suraggu]

When Railtrack went into administration it was a special "railway administration" that allowed operations to continue. I'm rather surprised this wasn't what happened to Vivarail.

I imagine that happened to ensure the entire UK rail network didn't come to a grinding halt.

 

[P Binnersley]

London NorthWestern have announced that there is bus replacement on the Marston Vale (Bletchley-Bedford) line until further notice due to the Vivarail administration.

We have received notifcation that Vivarail, the maintainers for the Class 230 trains that serve the Marston Vale line (between Bletchley and Bedford) have today entered into administration.

This means we are currently unable to provide a rail service on the Marston Vale line.

We are working to find alternative solutions. In the interim we will provide a fully accessible rail replacement bus service.

 

[DarloRich]

So are the guys at Ryde not important in all this?

from what am led to believe they are employed on different terms to the people at Bletchley. If you have other information please share it.

Well how on Earth are they going to manage once the line is part of East-West Rail with a limitation like that?

What are you talking about? Have you seen the plans for E-W? Those trains will service 2 stations on the Vale.: Woburn Sands and Ridgmont.

When Railtrack went into administration it was a special "railway administration" that allowed operations to continue. I'm rather surprised this wasn't what happened to Vivarail.

i am not sure you are comparing apples and apples!

 

[43096]

London NorthWestern have announced that there is bus replacement on the Marston Vale (Bletchley-Bedford) line until further notice due to the Vivarail administration.

Given that Vivarail's administration was signalled at least a week ago, you might ask what WMT have been doing in the interim to put a contingency plan in place.

 

[newtownmgr]

31s can't be used again. Unfortunately some very poor decisions were made in terms of signal siting and level crossings when the line was resignalled and some of the platforms moved, and as a result about 40m is the maximum train length. Otherwise it'd be a solution to bring some 172s down and have Tyseley drivers drive them with Bletchley drivers route-conducting until they were trained.

Tyseley drivers are depot only drivers. Would need to be Coventry,Leamington,Snow Hill or Worcester. Regardless of that it won’t happen. If they could have used 172’s on the line,they would have done so in the first place.

 

[norbitonflyer]

If 40m is the maximum length a 172 won't fit (nor a 196) as they are 2x23m. Indeed, only classes 150 or 153 will fit unless you want to resurrect a Pacer (or borrow a Parry People Mover)
If run round facilities are available at each end I suppose a 31 plus one Mark 1 or 2 carriage could be used.

Any DBSOs still fit for passenger use? With a 47/7 perhaps.

In short, one platform, the Bletchley bound platform at Kempston Hardwick, a very quiet station, seems to be an issue for 2x153 or a 156, and clearing 172s or 196s doesn't look hard at all provided SDO or local door is acceptable at a few stations.

Which means it won't be an issue for EWR, as their trains won't call there.
Would the pragmatic solution be to be provide a train service (using a 172, 196, whatever) serving all stations except Kempston Hardwick, with a bus (or taxi) service for that one station. Or even calling in the Bedford bound direction, with passengers allowed to double back. If it can be done at East Acton, why not at the much quieter KH?
Not ideal, but much better than no service on the line at all.

 

[david1212]

... The simplest way out for WMT would be to take over maintenance, although they’d need the documentation (VMI etc) from Vivarail.

In today's world would just having the documentation suffice ? Move another step and add one or more staff who have been doing the maintenance being employed would whatever certification they have still be considered valid ?

Down at Ryde St Johns did the staff complete training from Vivarail and hence now have formal certification to show this?

While heritage railways have no link to the builder / manufacturers of first generation DMU's nor I presume do their staff and volunteers have any formal certified training this is balanced by the 25mph speed limit.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Administration does not usually mean immediate stopping of all work / loss of staff. Companies can continue to operate whilst the administrator searches for a buyer of all or part/s of the business. Given that there ought to be a future for the Martson Vale units (there is no alternative except the rubber tyred one) that should give hope that that part will be bought by someone, thus the Bletchley based maintenance staff could be retained.

Administrators do have to work under strict rules re costs incurred after appointment but this is, at the moment, administration rather than liquidiation - which is what happens when you accept there will be no buyers, that any further money spent is wasted, thus the administrator stops spending it immediately.

Seems a bit strange to me. Suggesting to me that the Marston Vale service will not be operated by the Vivarail units again.

 

[450.emu]

Significant part of this was the constant barrage of "other people's cast offs", or "why should we have London's scrapheap" and other negative comments, including on here. This commonly for trains on services where the vast majority of the cost is borne from public funds. And the ambience is perfectly pleasant, such comments often being made by those who have never even ridden in them (or politicians who don't use the train at all). Good idea, killed by negativity.

I think they did well with using a Ford Transit engine alongside the original traction motors to give the D78's a fresh lease of life (before the fires)... as for Island Line, they've always had Tube stock. Hopefully a buyer for Vivarail can be found...

 

[D365]

I think they did well with using a Ford Transit engine alongside the original traction motors to give the D78's a fresh lease of life (before the fires)...

Ventilation has been a continual bugbear for all diesel 230s.

 

[richieb1971]

Where is the resiliency ? Governments nowadays don't put anything in place for a plan B and plan A doesn't work as often as it should.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Administration does not usually mean immediate stopping of all work / loss of staff. Companies can continue to operate whilst the administrator searches for a buyer of all or part/s of the business. Given that there ought to be a future for the Martson Vale units (there is no alternative except the rubber tyred one) that should give hope that that part will be bought by someone, thus the Bletchley based maintenance staff could be retained.

Administrators do have to work under strict rules re costs incurred after appointment but this is, at the moment, administration rather than liquidiation - which is what happens when you accept there will be no buyers, that any further money spent is wasted, thus the administrator stops spending it immediately.

Seems a bit strange to me. Suggesting to me that the Marston Vale service will not be operated by the Vivarail units again.

The administrator would look at income streams to decide where the axe should fall to minimise outgoings so given the LNR units are operating and presumably LNR have been paying the leasing charges seems an unnecessary action this early on. Administrators can act very fast and can be appointed and simultaneously sell on assets and tupe staff to new entities. So you would have expected LNR to have been consulted on options like acquiring assets or tupe staff over but of course DfT would have to be involved and certainly wouldn't support additional costs and the bean counters reckon they an save money this way. Eversholt must the best hope for at least the engineering and development side.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The administrator would look at income streams to decide where the axe should fall to minimise outgoings so given the LNR units are operating and presumably LNR have been paying the leasing charges seems an unnecessary action this early on.

I'd agree this was a very surprising move to lay off the maintenance staff immediately and nix the contract rather than looking to sell those staff and that contract on to AN Other, not necessarily WMT themselves. Perhaps things were financially very, very bad and that therefore wasn't financially possible - administrators can only work within what is left within the company, they can't magic up money from nowhere, so if there wasn't money to pay those staff they had to be laid off.